Warforged and Alter Self

[Benejeseret]

With alter self, would it be correct that warforged assume the form of other constructs up to 5Hd?

On the list is large animated object, warforged charger, wood golemn, Dread Guardian, and many lesser ones.

[Zim]

Calzone Golem from Somthing's Cooking? Fire damage from hot cheese! (no really)

Iron Defender (the robot dog from ECS)
Iron Cobra (not sure about HD though)
Effigy creature (not sure it that's legal since it's a template)

[UserClone]

I thought they were Humanoids with the Living Construct subtype? Or are they Constructs with the LC subtype?

[Zim]

The latter, IIRC.

[UserClone]

IMO, anything with the construct type should automatically have a LA, even with the nerfing, for just this type of reason.

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

IMO, anything with the construct type should automatically have a LA, even with the nerfing, for just this type of reason.

I think creators just sometimes assume everyone that uses what they make won't do so with enough cheese to fill the grand canyon. A foolish presumption, yes, but it makes it nice for those of us who don't want to take over the world at level 3.

[UserClone]

Thus, Rule 0.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Gets better. Polymorph for Iron Golem stats.

[UserClone]

Erm...Couldn't a human wizard do that, too?

[Benejeseret]

Well, being limited to 5HD means the spell is quite limited. The Caster does not gain extraordinary abilities of the thing he takes on and keeps his type/subtype (meaning no immune to crits).

I am thinking of one neat use in partucular. A warforged thief/wizard type using this to become a large animated bedsheet. Waits for the mark to get comfortable in bed...and the coup de grace.

Or grappling the creature (causing blindness) and then wildly beating the poor thing into sneak attack submission.

Can animated objects be weapons? How do you work out size (because a sword held by a medium creature is not really a medium thing itself). Some self loading siege equipment would be a nice twist as well.

Party needs a ladder....hey I'm a ladder. Part needs a cart, rope, large piece of self reloading siege equipment....hey I'm that too.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Erm...Couldn't a human wizard do that, too?

Nope. read up the Spell Description.

This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature. The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin. The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level. You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form. The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form.

Notice how Construct isn't in the list, but if the base type IS a Construct, then it can turn into ANY construct. Like an Iron Golem.

[TSGames]

With alter self, would it be correct that warforged assume the form of other constructs up to 5Hd?

On the list is large animated object, warforged charger, wood golemn, Dread Guardian, and many lesser ones.

Yes, you are quite right to assume that. It is very powerful and very fun. Also, it can be used for stealth very effectively.

[Iku Rex]

Notice how Construct isn't in the list, but if the base type IS a Construct, then it can turn into ANY construct. Like an Iron Golem.

Notice how the spell description prevents you from changing into a creature with more than 15HD. Iron golems have 18HD.

As for the OP, alter self isn't that great for constructs. I believe the automatons from MM2 are among the better forms, but the lack of hands hurts for a spellcaster.

[TSGames]

As for the OP, alter self isn't that great for constructs. I believe the automatons from MM2 are among the better forms, but the lack of hands hurts for a spellcaster.

If by "isn't that great" you mean "is freaking amazing" then you are correct, sir. One spell and you are Optimus Freakin' Prime. In addition, you can turn into about anything the party needs, from a big rock, to a rope, to a wagon, to any number of other things. You have almost unstoppable stealth capabilities, and you can obtain any movement form you want. This spell is amazing for constructs, and everyone else, ever. I rest my case.

Optimus Prime.

[Iku Rex]

If by "isn't that great" you mean "is freaking amazing" then you are correct, sir. One spell and you are Optimus Freakin' Prime. In addition, you can turn into about anything the party needs, from a big rock, to a rope, to a wagon, to any number of other things. You have almost unstoppable stealth capabilities, and you can obtain any movement form you want. This spell is amazing for constructs, and everyone else, ever. I rest my case.

"Oh look it's a big rock, I can't wait to tell my friends; they don't have a rock this big."

I'm not sure how you "rest your case" based on a link to a post that doesn't contain a single construct form.
( http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=2489422 )

What is the construct form for "unstoppable stealth capabilities", and why is it better than the best humanoid form? What are the construct forms for "any movement form you want"?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Notice how the spell description prevents you from changing into a creature with more than 15HD. Iron golems have 18HD.

As for the OP, alter self isn't that great for constructs. I believe the automatons from MM2 are among the better forms, but the lack of hands hurts for a spellcaster.

Clay Golem. 11 HD. Cursed Wound. +14 natural armor. Have a nice day. Too bad you don't get his immunity to almost all forms of magic or the haste. Or the DR 10/Adamantine *AND* Bludgeoning. The Str of 25 is nice, though.

Stone Golem, at 14 HD comes in just under the mark. +18 natural armor. Too bad you don't get the Slow every two rounds or the immunity to magic. Strength of 29 is pretty nice, though.

As for unstoppable stealth abilities, you can turn into an Animated Object, which can literally be ANYTHING. You can turn into an animated pillow and smother someone in their sleep, or listen to... ahem... pillow talk. With no one the wiser.

[Iku Rex]

Clay Golem. 11 HD. Cursed Wound. +14 natural armor. Have a nice day. Too bad you don't get his immunity to almost all forms of magic or the haste. Or the DR 10/Adamantine *AND* Bludgeoning. The Str of 25 is nice, though.

Stone Golem, at 14 HD comes in just under the mark. +18 natural armor. Too bad you don't get the Slow every two rounds or the immunity to magic. Strength of 29 is pretty nice, though.

You forgot to mention the clay golem's berserk ability... Do you want that as well?

The stone golem is a good polymorph form, certainly, but not that great compared to a war troll.

[Benejeseret]

Ya, the stealth is exactly what I am going for.

I am wanting to play a warforged rogue/avenger (like an assassin but not evil but gets alter self as a intelligence base spellcasting). I was going to try it in a PbP game here...but I am really liking the feel to it and might try to find a game group on campus and put it through some real testing.

Hehe...even as a BBEG it could be great. I'm thinking super-mimic.

Party finds a chest....the chest eats the rogue by sneak attack slamming closed on his neck or hands.

Then it flees in a small rope form through a hole. Every time the party then visits a tavern.....whoops, the chair moved as you tried to sit down, and now its sneak attacking your prone, drunk self.

By the end the party will have developed severe psychosis about objects, any object.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You forgot to mention the clay golem's berserk ability... Do you want that as well?

The stone golem is a good polymorph form, certainly, but not that great compared to a war troll.

If you get a Berzerk, just drop the Polymorph and he snaps out of it since he no longer has that ability.

Stone Golem has more natural armor than the war troll, although doesn't have the obnoxious stun ability.

If you have something that has a lot of healing, use Clay Golem to nerf them.

[NullAshton]

If you get a Berzerk, just drop the Polymorph and he snaps out of it since he no longer has that ability.

Stone Golem has more natural armor than the war troll, although doesn't have the obnoxious stun ability.

If you have something that has a lot of healing, use Clay Golem to nerf them.

Doesn't work, actually. You attack everything nearby and go on a rampage, and dispelling polymorph sadly does not constitute 'attacking' enemies. If that happens... basically your allies are either screwed, or has to kill you. Have fun with that.

[TSGames]

"Oh look it's a big rock, I can't wait to tell my friends; they don't have a rock this big."

I'm not sure how you "rest your case" based on a link to a post that doesn't contain a single construct form.
( http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=2489422 )

What is the construct form for "unstoppable stealth capabilities", and why is it better than the best humanoid form? What are the construct forms for "any movement form you want"?

You didn't read the thread. The OP left them out of the table. On pages 2 and 3 there is a limited discussion of the possibilities, but even those options prove to be nearly unparalleled choices for the spell.

Now let's go down the list.

1)Stealth capabilities. You can turn into any object. Period. [Scrubbed] Not to mention, combining it with spells like "shrink item" or just using it to turn into a full construct are inherently useful in and of themselves. I've never said that it's better than any humanoid form, I did say that the spell is amazing no matter what type of creature attempts to use it, and it happens to be very good for constructs.

2)Any movement form. It's called an astral construct. If that's not good enough for you(and the astral construct is very good), there's always the gargoyle for flying, see the aforementioned thread for the rest outside of astral construct.

***********
Astral construct is amazing for versatility. Also, if you notice the abilities it has are based on level and not HD, so turining into one can grant you the abilities from Menu C. This, in and of itself, makes the spell amazing: you can gain the spring attack feat for free, without meeting prerequisites. You can whirlwind attack, any number of useful abilities. Astral constructs make alter self quite powerful for warforged.
***********

Other than that, combine it with any number of useful strategies. As per my example, which the previously quoted poster was so quick to mock, you can jump or fly over your opponents, turn into a heavy rock and deal massive damage to them. You can turn into a ladder, a rope, a wagon, any object within one size category of you. Make an item that allows you to use this spell, it's cheap, in fact 3,600 for a ring that allows you to use 5/day, for 10 minutes each use. This ads versatility to the party that only a mage could previously provide.

Combine this with other spells for cheese only fitting for the polymorph subschool. Shrink item, in particular, would allow you to transform into a creaure of any size, large or smaller, when combined with alter self. You can now turn into anything large or smaller that you can imagine. Need to assassinate someone? Just have your warforged turn into something, a gold piece, a piece of paper, a chair, and kill them in the surprise round. This combination allows you to do whatever you want, use your imagination. Got a Warforged Juggernaut when the party needs to stealth? Not a problem, shrink item and alter self, and you can comfortably fit in the rogues pocket, glove of storing, heck, you could even be his glove.

Alter self's strength is that you get many spells for the price of one, it's versatility, and you will not find greater versatility than alter self or its stronger cousins.

This spell is good no matter what, or who uses it. You might as well be saying that Divine Metamagic isn't all that great.

[EDIT]
Item was 5/day use, not 3/day
[/EDIT]

[Chronos]

I don't think you can combine it with Shrink Item, since that only works on nonmagical items. Though that still leaves you with plenty of options.

[TSGames]

I don't think you can combine it with Shrink Item, since that only works on nonmagical items. Though that still leaves you with plenty of options.

Depends on if you consider warforged magical items or not. Their construction process is magical, but just reading over the racial traits in the Eberron Campaign Setting, I don't see anything indicating that they are magical. I think this would be rule 0 territory.

[Tobrecan]

Depends on if you consider warforged magical items or not. Their construction process is magical, but just reading over the racial traits in the Eberron Campaign Setting, I don't see anything indicating that they are magical. I think this would be rule 0 territory.

Actually, magical is not the important term, the spell only works on objects. A warforged, regardless of what form it may be in, is not an object so the shrink item will not work.

[TSGames]

Actually, magical is not the important term, the spell only works on objects. A warforged, regardless of what form it may be in, is not an object so the shrink item will not work.

No...

A warforged is a construct.

A construct is an animated object or artificially constructed creature.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Doesn't work, actually. You attack everything nearby and go on a rampage, and dispelling polymorph sadly does not constitute 'attacking' enemies. If that happens... basically your allies are either screwed, or has to kill you. Have fun with that.

However, if you no longer have the Berzerk ability, you no longer go berzerk. So since you're not stupid enough to cast it on yourself (and Polymorph has a range of Touch, not Personal, so you can actually do this on your tank Warforged to make him an even nastier tank) you can simply will the spell to expire (or Dispel it if necessary) to knock him out.

[Curmudgeon]

A warforged is a construct.

A construct is an animated object or artificially constructed creature.

A warforged is a living construct, not an animated object. Thus spells that only target objects, rather than also specifically allowing constructs as targets, generally won't work on warforged.

From Eberron Campaign Setting, page 23:

Spells such as stone to flesh, stone shape, warp wood, and wood shape affect objects only, and thus cannot be used on the stone and wood parts of a warforged.

[Citizen Joe]

I just checked the RAW thread. Warforged are type Construct/subtype Living Construct.

So start with your various magical boosts/temporary modifiers, If that doesn't answer the question, refer to your skills/class abilities. If that doesn't answer the question check Warforged specifically. If it STILL isn't answered refer to Living Construct. If that doesn't answer the question, check Construct. And finally go to the default for the universe.

Notice how Construct isn't in the list, but if the base type IS a Construct, then it can turn into ANY construct. Like an Iron Golem.

Except for...

This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature.

So a warforged could alter itself into another living construct, but not a non-living construct.
Additionally...

The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level.

The HD limitation can be prohibitive with powerful constructs.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

IMO, anything with the construct type should automatically have a LA, even with the nerfing, for just this type of reason.

I rather think the fault lies in alter self here rather than any particular creature type. After all, not every construct is going to have access to alter self. Shouldn't be punishing the ones that don't on account of the ones that do have it. I'm sure WotC would place the blame on the spell, too, given they no longer polymorph, alter self or shapechange and eve give a quasi-official recommendation that players drop those spells from their games.

Oh, and good catch about the living creature thing, Citizen Joe. Though it comes from the polymorph spell, and your quote box attributes it to alter self. Alter self does not have the "living" qualifier. It simply has to be another creature of the same type, living or otherwise. So it works just fine with Constructs, Undead, and Deathless.

[Citizen Joe]

oops... I was just grabbing stuff off previous posts... but here's the real limit:

You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. The new form must be within one size category of your normal size. The maximum HD of an assumed form is equal to your caster level, to a maximum of 5 HD at 5th level.

Thus no changing into superpowered constructs.

The weird part is going from say an unarmoured warforged to one with adamantine body. The question becomes is the body type equivalent to a minor change.

You can freely designate the new form’s minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind.