D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

[BerzerkerUnit]

Ack! Forgot to ask to extend this one too. Ah well, didn’t feel very motivated after that UA stepped in.

[AdAstra]

I assume people who didn't participate in the contest can still vote? It wasn't particularly clear in the thread. (obviously not a concern for me, but only 9 people voting seems like it would cause some issues)

[MoleMage]

I assume people who didn't participate in the contest can still vote? It wasn't particularly clear in the thread. (obviously not a concern for me, but only 9 people voting seems like it would cause some issues)

Correct. Anyone can vote. But because of the three-vote system, it generally works out as long as each participant votes (at least based on my observation of previous contests).

[nickl_2000]

I assume people who didn't participate in the contest can still vote? It wasn't particularly clear in the thread. (obviously not a concern for me, but only 9 people voting seems like it would cause some issues)

Absolutely, they can certainly vote.

[MoleMage]

Speaking of, Scaling Strangely is pretty similar to My Way is Different. What's the distinction we're drawing here?

To me the difference is that Scaling Strangely can use standard mechanics but bases them on unusual values (like a rogue who uses gold as hit points, or a warlock who uses Strength to cast), but My Way is Different uses original or uncommon mechanics (like rolling nonstandard dice to make skill checks, or changing up the action economy). They are both pretty similar, and also both pretty similar to Subsystems Online, but I think similar themes are okay when it comes to creating them.

[AdAstra]

One thing I kinda realized, doesn't the current system of voting we have kinda, disincentivize voting? Since you can't vote for yourself, and you contribute 6 total points to the "pool", voting notably decreases the proportional value of votes for your submission. Obviously the intent of the contest isn't to win, but I feel that it's probably best to encourage "sportsmanlike" behavior in some way, and discourage behavior that's good for the individual, but bad for participants as a whole.

[MoleMage]

One thing I kinda realized, doesn't the current system of voting we have kinda, disincentivize voting? Since you can't vote for yourself, and you contribute 6 total points to the "pool", voting notably decreases the proportional value of votes for your submission. Obviously the intent of the contest isn't to win, but I feel that it's probably best to encourage "sportsmanlike" behavior in some way, and discourage behavior that's good for the individual, but bad for participants as a whole.

So far I haven't really seen anyone taking advantage of that fact, but yes. If it becomes an issue, I'll implement mandatory voting (points you earn don't count unless you vote), but right now the tie-breaker rules seems to be sufficient.

[MoleMage]

It's officially that time again for MoleMage to tally and announce the results.

In third place, earning 8 points, we have the last class anyone expected to develop mind-powers. It's Fnissalot's Barbarian Path of the Flowminder! Just because you're angry doesn't mean you can't be smart angry.

We had a tie for most points earned, so I had to break out the tiebreaker rules for the first time since Contest VIII. Our first tiebreaker is whether both participants voted, and they did. The second tiebreaker is the participant who earned the greatest number of first place votes, giving us the following:

In second place, earning 9 points, we have thisdude9001's Doll Origin Sorcerer! Shoot thoughts at people (literally), or take them over with arrows made of psychic energy!

In first place, also earning 9 points, we have RickAsWritten's Nilbog Patron! For chaos-infused goblin fans everywhere (or just people who like to turn damage into health).


Congratulations to our winners!

In the category voting, our winner was Hold My Ale and our runner-up was Scaling Strangely, which means that will be included for voting next contest once again. Keep your eyes peeled for the new contest thread shortly.

Voting is concluded! New contest is up!

[sleepyhead]

Nice, thanks for the votes people.

[nickl_2000]

Congratulations all!

[sengmeng]

Wow, I guess the Path of Valhalla is done. PEACH.

[Damon_Tor]

Wow, I guess the Path of Valhalla is done. PEACH.

Looks great. I kind of wish there were more options besides Thor and Loki for rage effects though: I would think Tyr and Heimdall would be great options as well, with a focus on sacrifice and perception respectively.

And while I understand that fire is an aspect of Loki, I don't find it central to him, certainly not to the point where I think casting fireballs is the way to go. I'd much rather see illusion spells and similar effects: mirror image would be a very effective addition to a barbarian's defenses while being more on theme for Loki in general. Abilities which trick an enemy into targeting the barbarian instead of an ally with an attack would work well. Fire as the added damage type on the attacks while raging is enough of a callout to it being "his element", while flinging fireballs just doesn't feel right.

[sengmeng]

Looks great. I kind of wish there were more options besides Thor and Loki for rage effects though: I would think Tyr and Heimdall would be great options as well, with a focus on sacrifice and perception respectively.

And while I understand that fire is an aspect of Loki, I don't find it central to him, certainly not to the point where I think casting fireballs is the way to go. I'd much rather see illusion spells and similar effects: mirror image would be a very effective addition to a barbarian's defenses while being more on theme for Loki in general. Abilities which trick an enemy into targeting the barbarian instead of an ally with an attack would work well. Fire as the added damage type on the attacks while raging is enough of a callout to it being "his element", while flinging fireballs just doesn't feel right.

Good points. I was planning on fleshing out the Norse pantheon a bit more. Those are good suggestions.

Edit: added Watcher's Rage and Rebuker's Rage for Heimdall and Tyr, respectively.

Looked at the College of Fellowship and I like it a lot mechanically. I'm a sucker for unusual swarms and I feel this was well-done, and should create interesting tactical situations when you join and leave the mob. It's a little creepy in concept; seems more like brainwashing and reminiscent of the Pied Piper, but at the same time, rabid music fans do come off that way in real life. I have no real suggestions. I'd probably play this subclass. Well done!

[Nicrosil]

I have returned from the grave with the Sommelier artificer specialty. Get your foes drunk and then punch them in the gut! Brews, bruise... there's a pun to be made there somewhere.

[Phhase]

Way of the Iron Cask is up. It's gross and dumb and stupid and I love it. PEACH! Reviews coming soon.

[Damon_Tor]

Edit: added Watcher's Rage and Rebuker's Rage for Heimdall and Tyr, respectively.

Looks great. All I have remaining are a few quibbles about wording, rules interactions and maybe some complexity issues here and there.

Rebuker's rage has some ambiguous wording: if the damage is healed has it been "negated?" Does it heal whoever you damaged? You could just as easily say the damage cannot be reduced or resisted to reduce complexity.

I like where you went with tricksters rage at 10th level, and hellish rebuke is a great addition I hadn't thought of. But invisibility doesn't play well with rage's "attack or be attacked" rules. It fits the Loki theme, but not the class mechanics. Blur would be a better fit.

I don't think your note at the end is necessary: you're still limited to upgrading your rage once per short rest, and I don't think many tables take 6 short rests a day.

Looked at the College of Fellowship and I like it a lot mechanically. I'm a sucker for unusual swarms and I feel this was well-done, and should create interesting tactical situations when you join and leave the mob. It's a little creepy in concept; seems more like brainwashing and reminiscent of the Pied Piper, but at the same time, rabid music fans do come off that way in real life. I have no real suggestions. I'd probably play this subclass. Well done!

I'm glad you like it. Yes, the subclass certainly borders on some dark themes regarding free will and agency. But then again, it's not like the game doesn't already include questionable content in that regard. Conjure Woodland Creatures, for example, summons intelligent beings that are forced into your service. At least a fellowship bard has to take his posse out for some drinks first!

[sengmeng]

Looks great. All I have remaining are a few quibbles about wording, rules interactions and maybe some complexity issues here and there.

Rebuker's rage has some ambiguous wording: if the damage is healed has it been "negated?" Does it heal whoever you damaged? You could just as easily say the damage cannot be reduced or resisted to reduce complexity.

I like where you went with tricksters rage at 10th level, and hellish rebuke is a great addition I hadn't thought of. But invisibility doesn't play well with rage's "attack or be attacked" rules. It fits the Loki theme, but not the class mechanics. Blur would be a better fit.

I don't think your note at the end is necessary: you're still limited to upgrading your rage once per short rest, and I don't think many tables take 6 short rests a day.

I made the suggested change to Rebuker's Rage, and I think you're right about the note. The Invisibility I'm keeping, though. That and the ability to see Invisibility from Watcher's Rage give a tiny shred of utility to the desperately one trick pony that is the barbarian in general. If they want to burn 2 rages to use these functions, I wouldn't stand in their way. Besides, in the rare case they might wish to retreat, Invisibility would let them do so.

[KragBrightscale]

Alright! I’ve added my Druid subclass “circle of the great feast” to the competition.

First submission for such a competition, so I’m hoping for some PEACH, at least of what I currently have up

[nickl_2000]

Alright! I’ve added my Druid subclass “circle of the great feast” to the competition.

First submission for such a competition, so I’m hoping for some PEACH, at least of what I currently have up

Welcome to the party. I will definitely take a look at yours and the others once I figure out a first draft of my entry :)

[AdAstra]

Okay finally added some description to my Spirits Domain. Didn't have any fancy ideas, so I just focused on the mechanics, which I hope are interesting and useable.

[nickl_2000]

First draft of the Rogue Tavern Wench is up and available.

[KragBrightscale]

Okay finally added some description to my Spirits Domain. Didn't have any fancy ideas, so I just focused on the mechanics, which I hope are interesting and useable.

Definitely an improvement from your earlier version. Feels more fleshed out

The 1d4 subtracted from an attack and added to defense, that’s an interesting idea and would be especially useful I’d imagine on characters who have high bonuses or advantage on attack rolls and benefit from the added AC (barbarian reckless attack? Seems like a natural combo)

Miraculous proof, while likely able to result in a lot of fun situations rp-wise, I think it could have more to it. Benefits of consumption, effect on undead, charms those who drink it, loosening their tongues etc... it’s got potential

I’m not too experienced with homebrewing so I’ll let others check the numbers

[AdAstra]

Definitely an improvement from your earlier version. Feels more fleshed out

The 1d4 subtracted from an attack and added to defense, that’s an interesting idea and would be especially useful I’d imagine on characters who have high bonuses or advantage on attack rolls and benefit from the added AC (barbarian reckless attack? Seems like a natural combo)

Miraculous proof, while likely able to result in a lot of fun situations rp-wise, I think it could have more to it. Benefits of consumption, effect on undead, charms those who drink it, loosening their tongues etc... it’s got potential

I’m not too experienced with homebrewing so I’ll let others check the numbers

I wanted to keep the second channel divinity entirely confined to flavor, since there aren't many cleric domains that have two different CD options. I might add something, but if so it'll be pretty small.

[Damon_Tor]

I really like the Tavern Wench more than I expected to. I think I would probably prefer it if it was expanded conceptually to something that could encompass a wider array of a tavern's denizens, but I get that would interfere with some of the humor.

I love the ability to use improvised weapons as proficient finesse weapons, that's freaking brilliant. And it goes great with their level 13 ability to throw acid and other liquids with a bonus action (since those are treated as improvised weapons).

Mechanically, the only issue I have is that the level 17 ability is extremely underwhelming. Rogue subclasses usually get something really excellent at level 17, usually something that improves their damage somehow (afaik, the mastermind is the only exception), disease immunity and con save advantage is unimpressive by comparison to its peers.

[nickl_2000]

I really like the Tavern Wench more than I expected to. I think I would probably prefer it if it was expanded conceptually to something that could encompass a wider array of a tavern's denizens, but I get that would interfere with some of the humor.

I love the ability to use improvised weapons as proficient finesse weapons, that's freaking brilliant. And it goes great with their level 13 ability to throw acid and other liquids with a bonus action (since those are treated as improvised weapons).

Mechanically, the only issue I have is that the level 17 ability is extremely underwhelming. Rogue subclasses usually get something really excellent at level 17, usually something that improves their damage somehow (afaik, the mastermind is the only exception), disease immunity and con save advantage is unimpressive by comparison to its peers.

Thanks I really liked the fun and flavor, but struggled with the abilities

1) do too think it would be okay to make a unarmed strike finesse as well as improvised weapons? A good bar maid has a mighty slap.


2) how about this instead? assuming you can slap as a finesse weapon.


Keep your hands to yourself!
At level 17, you been there and done that. Frankly you are getting pretty tired of all the s**t from your patrons. When you are hit with an attack or grappled, may use your reaction to make an unarmed strike against your attacker. If you are successful in your hit, you also automatically break any grapples.
You may use this ability up to your dexterity modifier times or long rest.


I know it kind of breaks the mold being limited to resources, but a free reaction each round seemed like way too much

[AdAstra]

Thanks I really liked the fun and flavor, but struggled with the abilities

1) do too think it would be okay to make a unarmed strike finesse as well as improvised weapons? A good bar maid has a mighty slap.


2) how about this instead? assuming you can slap as a finesse weapon.


Keep your hands to yourself!
At level 17, you been there and done that. Frankly you are getting pretty tired of all the s**t from your patrons. When you are hit with an attack or grappled, may use your reaction to make an unarmed strike against your attacker. If you are successful in your hit, you also automatically break any grapples.
You may use this ability up to your dexterity modifier times or long rest.


I know it kind of breaks the mold being limited to resources, but a free reaction each round seemed like way too much

Even if it was at-will, it wouldn’t be totally insane as a 17th level ability. Even with Sneak Attack, your damage will be lower than using a weapon, and you still need to fulfill the requirements of SA. As an example, Scout gets a free bonus action attack that can trigger an extra Sneak Attack (it can’t be against the same target, but still) allowing them to theoretically get three SAs a round (Action, bonus action, reaction with something like Sentinel or Battlemaster’s Riposte). The ability as-written (with the limit) is decently powerful without breaking anything, and is also very fun. Love the idea of a barmaid slapping a dragon out of the sky.

[nickl_2000]

Even if it was at-will, it wouldn’t be totally insane as a 17th level ability. Even with Sneak Attack, your damage will be lower than using a weapon, and you still need to fulfill the requirements of SA. As an example, Scout gets a free bonus action attack that can trigger an extra Sneak Attack (it can’t be against the same target, but still) allowing them to theoretically get three SAs a round (Action, bonus action, reaction with something like Sentinel or Battlemaster’s Riposte). The ability as-written (with the limit) is decently powerful without breaking anything, and is also very fun. Love the idea of a barmaid slapping a dragon out of the sky.

Alright, you convinced me :)

Slap whoever it is silly at will as a reaction. The nice thing is that it competes with uncanny dodge as well.

[Damon_Tor]

Thanks I really liked the fun and flavor, but struggled with the abilities

1) do too think it would be okay to make a unarmed strike finesse as well as improvised weapons? A good bar maid has a mighty slap.


2) how about this instead? assuming you can slap as a finesse weapon.


Keep your hands to yourself!
At level 17, you been there and done that. Frankly you are getting pretty tired of all the s**t from your patrons. When you are hit with an attack or grappled, may use your reaction to make an unarmed strike against your attacker. If you are successful in your hit, you also automatically break any grapples.
You may use this ability up to your dexterity modifier times or long rest.


I know it kind of breaks the mold being limited to resources, but a free reaction each round seemed like way too much

I would worry about stepping on monk's toes.

If it were me, I'd double down on hitting people with bottles. When you allow for bonus action liquid attacks also introduce the ability to apply the poisoned condition to a guy you hit with a bottle of booze, then at level 17 increase the damage you deal to poisoned creatures. It would give you a one-two punch that would be pretty effective, and would have some defensive benefits as well. It would be inherently limited because you would have to stay stocked up on liquor.

[nickl_2000]

You will have to excuse my formatting, I’m writing this on my phone when I have time to get one in

Bardic College of the Wassailer
Level 3, this feels a little bit of an edge case to me. It’s a fun effect overall and pretty powerful, but if you are out adventuring or dungeon crawling you may not be able to use this every day.

Also, it’s very typical to give bonus profs at level 3 for a bard, or at least two abilities. I would add something else.


Level 6: how do you choose who is immune to winter effects? When is that choice made?

Level 14: this has the same issue I have with the level 3 ability. When out in the wilderness, you may not be able to do it at all and will lose out on a major subclass feature.


Overall, the flavor is really fun and interesting. Very thematic to the time it was written and would make a fun subclass to play other than the issues I mentioned above.

[nickl_2000]

Time for more reviews now that the holiday season is over.

Spoiler: Revelry Domain

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Domain Spells - Shatter seems a little bit off to me, but otherwise it seems good.

Channel divinity What happens is someone if blind or doesn't have eyes? Balance wise it seems good though. An effective ability that isn't to powerful, but is certainly useful.

Heart of an oxen - I wouldn't mind seeing the temporary hit points raise as you go. Whether it's you gain your level in temp HP or something else, 2d6 HP at level 20 is nice, but it would barely last a single hit.

Life of the Party - So, this is really, really powerful on a Warlock or Monk. As it is written, you could refresh their Ki or spells multiple times in a single battle. I think it works fine if you put in a rider that says it can only be used on someone once per long rest or something to that effect.

Spoiler: Spirits Domain

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Drunkard's Luck - What is the damage type of this when it is added? The weapon damage type?

Channel Divinity: Miraculous Proof - Is this also at 2nd level?

Spirit Haze - how often can this be used?

Spoiler: Barbarian Path to Valhalla

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Wrath of the Gods - Is there an action cost to enter a higher rage? Or when you rage, you can choose to super rage instead?

Rebuker's Rage - This feels off to me for some reason. I guess since you are hitting this at level 3 you could easily kill yourself within 3-4 rounds just by hitting other people. I'm not sure what the solution is though, since you are adding significant damage to each hit there needs to be some drawback.

Sacred Mead - When you take a short rest and use a hit dice, you already get your Con bonus added to the amount of HP healed. So, if the intent is that you get 2x your con bonus, you probably should spell that out more clearly.

Drunken Rage - Probably a typo, but you don't mention the rebukers rage when you give the first information.

All-Father's Blessing - This is interesting, and really, really flipping powerful. The easiest way to drop a barbarian is to hold/suggestion/some spell that targets wisdom. You are effectively shutting this ability down completely for the combat. It seems like to much to give a blanket protection against these. Additionally, it adds some odd complications with concentration mechanics. What happens is a baddie casts hold person on the barbarian and the barbarian defers it. Does the baddie still have to hold concentration or not?

Spoiler: College of Fellowship

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Before anything else, I have to say that I absolutely adore this line "their fear and incompetence overwhelming their desire to please you"

So, while the mob is cool at level 3, I think you need something else at level 3. Some bonus proficiency, some other smaller ability, something. It feels spares compared to the other bard subclasses, especially since you get nothing for combat at all (or a use for bardic inspiration).

The Mob - There is a lot of flavor in making the mob get together, but I think it's an over-complication that would slow down combat. It would be way easier if they just gathered when initiative was rolled.

The mob is a pretty fun mechanic, but I think you need something more to this subclass. If they get killed off, you are toast since you have nothing left. An extra use of inspiration, some extra abilities. Something.

Spoiler: Artificer Specialty: Sommelier

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Doing my best here, but take my comments with a grain of salt since I'm not an expert with Artificer at all. This is all going to be gut feelings.

Inebriated Confidant - At the end of the hour, does the target know you charmed it?

Sickening Blow - This seems really, really powerful. Not the damage, that's fine, but the poisoned condition is actually pretty brutal. Additionally since you can do it every single round it makes it even worse. I think you need some sort of limiter on there that "if a creature succeeds on a saving throw against the poisoned condition, it cannot be poisoned by this ability for 24 hours).

Also, 3 abilities at level 3 seems to be a bit front loaded to me.

Spoiler: Way of the Iron Cask

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Synthesize - This feels to weak having to spend an action, ki, and a your tank to get 2x level temp HP for a single round. I feel like they should last longer to make it worth the investment. Maybe a minute, maybe a number of rounds equal to your con mod, something to make it last longer.

Exude - Viscous and exude seems like an odd combination. They are knocked back 10 feet and are grappled? How does that work exactly?

Spoiler: Circle of the Great Feast

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Drunken gait - Not that it matters much, but there isn't an AC dodge bonus in 5th edition (or magical, or shield, or any other type for that matter). So, there is no need to say it, it may confuse some people.

Brewmaster - How many uses do you get out of each brew? You mentioned that the druid can take a swig, doesn't that use up the brew completely, or does it have multiple uses? If it's single use, then I would remove that to simplify the wording somewhat.

Medicinal mead - restored 1d4 + half level of druid hit points?

party animal - The first part of this is completely unnecessary. When a Druid wildshapes, they keep their class features (other than being able to cast spells). So, they would already be able to use this feature prior to level 10. So, you can certainly enhance this ability fairly significantly.

Free spirited - This feels kind of weak for a capstone to me. Admittedly, druid capstones are weaker, but the least you could do is make it so you can cast it concentration free. That would be something at least.

Spoiler: Oath of The Boor

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First things first, tongue in cheek is perfectly fine. My first entry was a Pinball Wizard (based on The Who's rock opera Tommy) and I made a barbarian who was a tool user with an ability called "percussive maintenance" (effectively raging and beating things with tools until they were crafted).

Oath Spells:
Why are you giving Spirit Guardians? This seems like a huge boon to a Paladin and doesn't really fit into the theme that I can tell. Bestow Curse, Remove Curse, Create Food and Water, Stinking Cloud, and Slow seem like they would fit to me.

Turn the Civilized - Alright, I find this ability flat out hilarious.

Aura of Disgust - How does this work with casters? Do they cast against you or do they attack? Honestly, I'm not sure I'm a fan of this ability since you can't turn it off. While a Paladin is a tank and wants to be the focus of attacks, making it required that all bad guys attack you all the time is pretty brutal. How does this Paladin escape when they are being downed? I would re-consider it to be something else, that could be the same name even. You could do something where enemies needs to make a save or be poisoned for 1 round (on a successful save, they are immune).

Toxic Cleansing - Woah... that is a lot of HP. At 15th level that is 75 extra hit points that are gained per short rest (so 225 HP on an average adventuring day). Also, it's a little bit odd to tie a 15th level ability to a channel divinity. I would consider making it a once per long rest ability that isn't tied to Turn the Civilized.

Inured to Death - This is really powerful as well, on the other hand a level 20 ability is supposed to be. I am not a huge fan of this ability in the Zealot barbarian, but that is more a person issue rather than a balance issue.


Overall it's a good subclass. There is a lot of good flavor, but some of the abilities need to be tightened up or modified.