Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

[Wraith]

Aaron Dembski-Bowden does that a lot in his novels - even the most vicious, ruthless and sadistic monsters of corrupted transhumans actually have friends, and do things other than torture each other 23 hours per day.

Khârn and Argul Tal; Iskandar Khayon, Lheorvine Ukris and Abaddon; Talos and First Claw. They all have really good moments in their stunted, Astartes way. We all know that Space Marines are unstoppable killing machines; we don't need to be told that, we can just assume that its true and I find its what else they do that makes them particularly interesting.

[Platinius]

What I like about the Night Lords was just how much they basically hate themselves. They are evil mofos but on many levels they understand that and resent themselves for it. Much like their Primarch, they love and absolutely hate themselves. They can come so easily together as a group yet they hate each other so much.
It is what makes them sympathetic (to me).

One of the smallest yet biggest details is time. The NL have absolutely nothing to do while between excursions of any sort while loyalist marines train a large variety of skills all day, every day for the rest of their days.
Being the top dog in prison still means you are in prison. The NL have long lost all purpose. That is why they lash out so hard. That is why they are so past orientated, why else would they prioritize stealing one of their crusade day ships back at the cost of their current ship, which was in good shape. That is why they are so obsessed with with their old ranks and titles. That is why they all come back together to cleanse the last shared NL stronghold over and over again. They are stuck in the past and they have no way out.

To paraphrase Talos smacktalking: "We were a legion! That meant you had 10k brothers on your left and 10k brother on your right with the will of Humanity and the Master of mankind propelling your forward in unity and purpose."

To be robbed of such purpose, it is debilitating. It is no wonder they are all more or less massively depressed and just lashing out at the world.

To paraphrase the great Bruva Aphabusa: "The magic muscle juice does not make the away the pains of the mind go away."

[deuterio12]

Aaron Dembski-Bowden does that a lot in his novels - even the most vicious, ruthless and sadistic monsters of corrupted transhumans actually have friends, and do things other than torture each other 23 hours per day.

Khârn and Argul Tal; Iskandar Khayon, Lheorvine Ukris and Abaddon; Talos and First Claw. They all have really good moments in their stunted, Astartes way. We all know that Space Marines are unstoppable killing machines; we don't need to be told that, we can just assume that its true and I find its what else they do that makes them particularly interesting.

But that's the thing, once a space marine starts feeling doubts and making friends and whatnot, then they stop being unstoppable killing machines. And start being heretics when the emprah commands them to keep killing and they go "nah dude, feel like doing some non-killing now*."

*notice that you can't torture somebody that's already dead, thus that probably makes the Night Lords the legion that refused to kill the most often.

[Cheesegear]

That is why they are so past orientated...

Which is weird, 'cause Curze blew up Nostromo precisely to leave the past.

...And start being heretics when the emprah commands them to keep killing and they go "nah dude, feel like doing some non-killing now."

Emperor never told anyone to kill anything. The Emperor demanded that worlds be Pacified quickly. How the Primarchs chose to do that, was up to them. The way Lorgar chose to Pacify worlds was demonstrably slow, that's why he was chewed out. Curze was by far the quickest Pacifier whose worlds stayed Pacified.

Curze killed precisely as many people as he had to - no more and no less - and it worked every single time.

[Cikomyr]

Emperor never told anyone to kill anything. The Emperor demanded that worlds be Pacified quickly. How the Primarchs chose to do that, was up to them. The way Lorgar chose to Pacify worlds was demonstrably slow, that's why he was chewed out. Curze was by far the quickest Pacifier whose worlds stayed Pacified.

Curze killed precisely as many people as he had to - no more and no less - and it worked every single time.

How about Alpharius? Was it fast or slow? I know Guilliman hated it.

[comicshorse]

The Emperor demanded that worlds be Pacified quickly. How the Primarchs chose to do that, was up to them. The way Lorgar chose to Pacify worlds was demonstrably slow, that's why he was chewed out. Curze was by far the quickest Pacifier whose worlds stayed Pacified.

Curze killed precisely as many people as he had to - no more and no less - and it worked every single time.

Do you have any citations to back that up ? Because his brothers, the tactical geniuses, felt he was slaughtering people unnecessarily
And Nostromo demonstrates it didn't work every single time
Not to mention fast isn't the only metric for success. Not depopulated and devastated is also good

[Cheesegear]

Do you have any citations to back that up?

From Lexicanum...But also I read it a long time ago, which Lexicanum cites as being Index Astartes II, which fits, 'cause I'm looking at that book on my bookshelf right now.

Night Haunter encouraged his legion to decorate their armour with images designed to inspire fear in the enemy, a tactic that proved incredibly effective. Soon, rumours of the impending presence of the Night Lords would cause a system to pay all outstanding tithes, cease all illegal activities and put to death any mutants and suspected heretics.

Curze never even had to make planetfall.
It's like that time in the Damocles Gulf, when Battlefleet Ultima was coming 'cause Aun'Va goof'd hard. Worlds didn't need to be retaken from the T'au, because the Human Worlds already knew **** was going down and they killed or booted their Ethreals on the spot. No heresy here. Please ignore the dead blue body under the rug.

Because his brothers, the tactical geniuses, felt he was slaughtering people unnecessarily

Dorn isn't The Emperor. Cruze himself even says so, to Dorn. Hence Curze telling Dorn to punish him, or Curze is walking. You want to play Dad? Then play Dad. Don't just talk. If you think I've violated The Emperor's orders, then ****ing do something.
Curze doesn't give a **** what his brothers think. That's like...His whole character.

Not to mention fast isn't the only metric for success. Not depopulated and devastated is also good

Only if you're Guilliman...Or Dorn.
Lorgar: "Dad wants it done fast? I'll do it fast, then. Give him exactly what he asked for."
Curze has exactly the same mentality, except Curze already had it, he didn't need character development to get there.

[Wraith]

But that's the thing, once a space marine starts feeling doubts and making friends and whatnot, then they stop being unstoppable killing machines. And start being heretics when the emprah commands them to keep killing and they go "nah dude, feel like doing some non-killing now*."

*notice that you can't torture somebody that's already dead, thus that probably makes the Night Lords the legion that refused to kill the most often.

I'm getting the very distinct impression that you haven't read any of the Night Lords books. You wouldn't suggest that the Traitor Marines "weren't killing enough", otherwise. And ESPECIALLY of the Night Lords.

How about Alpharius? Was it fast or slow? I know Guilliman hated it.

Alpharius was one of the slow ones. Not the slowest, which was pre-Monarchia Lorgar, but he had a tendency to make things as complicated as possible by infiltrating spies, founding insurrectionist militias, turning politicians and so on, when all he really needed to do was to make planetfall, point at the ground and go: "See this? Mine." and shoot anyone who disagreed.

Its also difficult to confirm that Guilliman *hated* the method. He thought his own was better because it was more ordered and straight-forward, but then (as with so many problems caused among the brother Primarchs) it was never Guilliman's place to criticise another Legion's method, and what we see as hatred may just as likely have been Guilliman's typically blunt and graceless attempt at conversation. For a great diplomat and statesman, he had a knack of saying things in exactly the way that would upset people - Alpharius, Angron, Lorgar, Conrad Kurze, and Lion El'Johnson among them.

And Nostromo demonstrates it didn't work every single time

I feel that you'e being a little bit harsh - Nostromo was the first, and last, of the Night Lords' compliances to rebel, and it was dealt with in record time. Even Horus couldn't match that feat - he had a whole system rebel and he needed a prolonged war to take it back.

None of the Primarch's methods were perfect, but by comparison and with continued loyalty as the metric, the Night Haunter's was one of, if not the, best.

[comicshorse]

From Lexicanum...But also I read it a long time ago, which Lexicanum cites as being Index Astartes II, which fits, 'cause I'm looking at that book on my bookshelf right now.



Curze never even had to make planetfall.
It's like that time in the Damocles Gulf, when Battlefleet Ultima was coming 'cause Aun'Va goof'd hard. Worlds didn't need to be retaken from the T'au, because the Human Worlds already knew **** was going down and they killed or booted their Ethreals on the spot. No heresy here. Please ignore the dead blue body under the rug.
.

True but interestingly enough the Lexicanum also says

This approach made the Night Lords well-suited for dealing with worlds brought into the Imperium during the Crusade who were subsequently lax in achieving full compliance, or who even threatened to rebel. They were heavily utilized as a force that solidifed the Imperium's grip after initial pacification was achieved;

Indicating the Night Lords weren't actually doing the heavy lifting of the pacification merely turning up to torture a few thousands of people to drive the message home. What message is debatable

Dorn isn't The Emperor. Cruze himself even says so, to Dorn. Hence Curze telling Dorn to punish him, or Curze is walking. You want to play Dad? Then play Dad. Don't just talk. If you think I've violated The Emperor's orders, then ****ing do something.
Curze doesn't give a **** what his brothers think. That's like...His whole character.

Yeah that doesn't indicate Dorn is wrong just that Curze is a headcase and self-destructive

From Wraith

I feel that you'e being a little bit harsh - Nostromo was the first, and last, of the Night Lords' compliances to rebel, and it was dealt with in record time. Even Horus couldn't match that feat - he had a whole system rebel and he needed a prolonged war to take it back.

None of the Primarch's methods were perfect, but by comparison and with continued loyalty as the metric, the Night Haunter's was one of, if not the, best

Nostromo was dealt with in record time because Curze blew it up. Anybody can deal with rebellion fast if all they do is say 'nuke the place'.
And again I'm not seeing any citation Cure's method was the best. He's practically alone of all the Primarch's to have his own home world rebel against him. Only the Lion had that and they had to be lead into it by the Marines he left behind. Hardly a glowing recommendation for Curze's methods

[Cheesegear]

This approach made the Night Lords well-suited for dealing with worlds brought into the Imperium during the Crusade who were subsequently lax in achieving full compliance, or who even threatened to rebel. They were heavily utilized as a force that solidifed the Imperium's grip after initial pacification was achieved;

Yes. Correct. Curze's brothers couldn't do the job properly because they were [w]ussies, and he had to clean up their mess. CURZE WAS DOING HIS JOB. NO MORE. NO LESS. Curze was doing what his brothers couldn't.
That's what you're not getting.

Curze would get confused when his brothers couldn't Pacify a planet.

That's why Curze was effective.

What message is debatable

The message he sent was clear; Rebel and die. I'm not lenient like my brothers.
When Curze kills one in ten people on a planet, he includes women and children in the count.
It doesn't matter who is doing the rebelling, anyone can die. So populations policed themselves after being Pacified by Curze, because what your neighbour says, could potentially get you killed. So you silence them before their ideas gain traction.

Yeah that doesn't indicate Dorn is wrong

By whose morality?

Say it with me; The Ends Justify the Means.
The Emperor condones genocide if it achieves what he wants.

The 'You're Doing It Wrong' scene, between Curze, Fulgrim and Dorn in The Dark King is fantastic.

P.S. Let's not debate morality in 40K again.

And again I'm not seeing any citation Curze's method was the best.

Except you literally cited it, above. He was the guy who got called when his brothers failed.

He's practically alone of all the Primarch's to have his own home world rebel against him.

Olympia disagrees. What did The Emperor tell Peterabo to do about that?
The difference is that Perterabo didn't use a permanent solution to a temporary problem. However, after Perterabo's planet rebelled, so did he. So it's a wash.

[comicshorse]

Yes. Correct. Curze's brothers couldn't do the job properly because they were [w]ussies, and he had to clean up their mess. CURZE WAS DOING HIS JOB. NO MORE. NO LESS. Curze was doing what his brothers couldn't.
That's what you're not getting. That's why Curze was effective.

That's only effective BECAUSE all the real work had already been, by his brothers. Torturing unarmed civilians isn't difficult. And Curze is doing a Job, the fact that he picks the most monstrous way to do it has nothing to do with it being efficient and everything to do with him being a monster.

The message he sent was clear; Rebel and die. I'm not lenient like my brothers.
When Curze kills one in ten people on a planet, he includes women and children in the count.
It doesn't matter who is doing the rebelling, anyone can die. So populations policed themselves after being Pacified by Curze, because what your neighbour says, could potentially get you killed. So you silence them before their ideas gain traction.

His brothers are lenient now ? Since when ?
The other Primarchs (with a couple of exceptions) annihilated cities too. The difference is they just bombed them while the Night Lords dug skinning pits and took ages getting their rocks off making it slow and INEFFICIENT
And populations policing themselves is a TERRIBLE idea. It just leads to paranoia, lack of co-operation, and thousands of innocents dying because their neighbors didn't like the look of them

Exactly. It doesn't indicate he's right, either.

Far enough but when several of the Galaxy's foremost tactical geniuses tell Curze his methods suck and his response is " you're not the boss of me !" I ain't convinced by Curze's arguments

Except you literally cited it, above. He was the guy who got called when his brothers failed

.

Nope he's the guy called in to tidy up after all the works done. ( Hmmm its not far from that to they send in the Night Lords because the original legion are off somewhere else doing the difficult work and can't be spared. I wonder if a mind as paranoid as Curze considered that)

Olympia disagrees.
The difference is that Perterabo didn't use a permanent solution to a temporary problem. However, after Perterabo's planet rebelled, so did he. So it's a wash.

Fair point. Still puts Curze in a relatively small group of failures compared to the rest of his brothers

By whose morality?

Say it with me; The Ends Justify the Means.
The Emperor condones genocide if it achieves what he wants.

The 'You're Doing It Wrong' scene, between Curze, Fulgrim and Dorn in The Dark King is fantastic.

P.S. Let's not debate morality in 40K again.

OK, even putting morality aside Curze tactics aren't very efficient because they're always more about pissing off his brothers and feeding his inner monster than actually doing the job the Emperor set him. Unsurprisingly considered he pretty much hated his dad
Hmmm Curze is the living embodiment of the flaw in his tactics. Intimidate/ Scare people into working for you and they will do a appalling job and screw you over at the first good opportunity

[Drasius]

That's only effective BECAUSE all the real work had already been, by his brothers. Torturing unarmed civilians isn't difficult. And Curze is doing a Job, the fact that he picks the most monstrous way to do it has nothing to do with it being efficient and everything to do with him being a monster.

Except all the planets the NL took themselves. They're more than capable of fighting an actual fight, but they're even better at making sure they don't have to do it very often because when word gets out about what they do to the survivors, worlds capitulate without a shot fired. That facet is meant to be the dark mirror of Bibby G's statesman policy - same event, different approach, same out come via different means.

His brothers are lenient now ? Since when ?
The other Primarchs (with a couple of exceptions) annihilated cities too. The difference is they just bombed them while the Night Lords dug skinning pits and took ages getting their rocks off making it slow and INEFFICIENT
And populations policing themselves is a TERRIBLE idea. It just leads to paranoia, lack of co-operation, and thousands of innocents dying because their neighbors didn't like the look of them

They're leniant because they don't immediately deal with rebellions in the harshest manner available. As above, when the other planets within astropath choir distance hear about what happens when you decide the Imperium isn't for you and then the night lords come calling, keeps them in line. It's better to be feared than loved and all that jazz.

The fact that a few innocents die to protect the teaming multitude of humanity, and that it's the least worst option, is practically the calling card of 40k, why should 30k be any different?

Far enough but when several of the Galaxy's foremost tactical geniuses tell Curze his methods suck and his response is " you're not the boss of me !" I ain't convinced by Curze's arguments

You should be convinced by his results.

Nope he's the guy called in to tidy up after all the works done.

Funny, ask the Salamanders if they got the job done before the NL's went in. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that the Night Lords are just there for the torture and no fighting, or that they come in after the heavy lifting has been done, it's not something that's been promoted to my knowledge. They're a bit sneaky, but if anything, I'd say they're the most realistic (not that this is a term that should be applied to warhammer) version of a legion there is. The Imperium is not nice, and it is full of not nice people, and they're the only thing keeping it from falling to chaos. That's the point.

Fair point. Still puts Curze in a relatively small group of failures compared to the rest of his brothers

Each primach had their own failings, none are without a black mark on their report card. If Malcador is to be believed, that's how it was planned to be.

OK, even putting morality aside Curze tactics aren't very efficient because they're always more about pissing off his brothers and feeding his inner monster than actually doing the job the Emperor set him. Unsurprisingly considered he pretty much hated his dad
Hmmm Curze is the living embodiment of the failure of his tactics. Intimidate/ Scare people into working for you and they will do a appalling job and screw you over at the first good opportunity

Not really - if all you need to do is force compliance, and you do that long enough for the administrators to smooth everything out and get people acustomed to the Imperium, well, job done, that's what you were meant to do, be the boogyman in the dark to keep people in line while the pencil pushers have time to get themselves thoroughly entrenched and make the world dependant on them to the point where those born into the system don't question. Once the generation who knew another life other than service to the Imperium is gone, things get much easier to deal with.

[Cheesegear]

That's only effective BECAUSE all the real work had already been, by his brothers.

Wat.
He Pacified his own planets, per what I said, and he Pacified his Brothers' planets, because they sucked.
Curze did more Pacifying than pretty much anyone except Lorgar...And Curze never had to backtrack.

And Curze is doing a Job, the fact that he picks the most monstrous way to do it has nothing to do with it being efficient and everything to do with him being a monster.

I don't understand what you're saying. What does Curze being a monster have to do with him not being effective?

His brothers are lenient now ? Since when ?

Curze and Dorn have a whole conversation about it. 'Mercy' is a thing that shouldn't exist.

And populations policing themselves is a TERRIBLE idea. It just leads to paranoia, lack of co-operation, and thousands of innocents dying because their neighbors didn't like the look of them

No it doesn't. Everyone gets on the same train and pays their taxes.
Paranoia and lack of co-operation is what leads to rebellion.
That's exactly what doesn't happen. No-one rebels because it would be a dumb idea, because have you even seen how Curze operates?

Far enough but when several of the Galaxy's foremost tactical geniuses tell Curze his methods

It was Dorn. He called him out on Ethical grounds. Not Tactical grounds.
Dorn almost has a meltdown comparing himself to Curze, because he knows Curze is right! (I know for a fact that there are several people in this thread who have read/heard Dark King/Lightning Tower and can back me up)
Results are the best results.

Nope he's the guy called in to tidy up after all the works done.

...and the rest.

Fair point. Still puts Curze in a relatively small group of failures compared to the rest of his brothers

Curze wasn't a failure. He was right. All the way to the end.
There are several stories that illustrate this.

OK, even putting morality aside Curze tactics aren't very efficient because they're always more about pissing off his brothers and feeding his inner monster...

You've read books with Curze in them, right?

Intimidate/ Scare people into working for you and they will do a appalling job and screw you over at the first good opportunity

Nobody screws over Curze. Are you even reading?

[comicshorse]

Except all the planets the NL took themselves. They're more than capable of fighting an actual fight, but they're even better at making sure they don't have to do it very often because when word gets out about what they do to the survivors, worlds capitulate without a shot fired. That facet is meant to be the dark mirror of Bibby G's statesman policy - same event, different approach, same out come via different means.

I'm not saying the NL can't fight when they have to but that's not what is being discussed. The claim is being made that's it the NL's torturing that make their methods the best and I'm arguing it makes them the worse. To use your own example G leaves planets proud to be part of the Imperium. That will work hard and raise Imperial Legions that will fight with passion and dedication and the NL leave traumatized survivors of atrocities working badly for the same regime that unleashed horror on them

You should be convinced by his results.

And I say again, what results ? So far all we have is a vague quote from the Lexicanum, that I provided, saying the NL's worked best cleaning up after other Legions

Funny, ask the Salamanders if they got the job done before the NL's went in. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that the Night Lords are just there for the torture and no fighting, or that they come in after the heavy lifting has been done, it's not something that's been promoted to my knowledge. They're a bit sneaky, but if anything, I'd say they're the most realistic (not that this is a term that should be applied to warhammer) version of a legion there is. The Imperium is not nice, and it is full of not nice people, and they're the only thing keeping it from falling to chaos. That's the point.

Realistic. I'm not sure what history you've been reading but I can't think of any successful regime that employed tactics like the NL

Not really - if all you need to do is force compliance, and you do that long enough for the administrators to smooth everything out and get people acustomed to the Imperium, well, job done, that's what you were meant to do, be the boogyman in the dark to keep people in line while the pencil pushers have time to get themselves thoroughly entrenched and make the world dependant on them to the point where those born into the system don't question. Once the generation who knew another life other than service to the Imperium is gone, things get much easier to deal with.

So rather than spend a few extra weeks taking the planet you decimate the population and infrastructure. Leave unwilling and traumatized subjects for the next 50-100 years of appalling production. And in the end the NL lesson will be forgotten anyway

[comicshorse]

Wat.
He Pacified his own planets, per what I said, and he Pacified his Brothers' planets, because they sucked.
Curze did more Pacifying than pretty much anyone except Lorgar...And Curze never had to backtrack.

See my first reply to Drasius

I don't understand what you're saying. What does Curze being a monster have to do with him not being effective?

Because Curze doesn't care about being effective. He acts inefficiently because all he really cares about is being a monster

Curze and Dorn have a whole conversation about it. 'Mercy' is a thing that shouldn't exist.

And Curze was wrong about that.

No it doesn't. Everyone gets on the same train and pays their taxes.
Paranoia and lack of co-operation is what leads to rebellion.

But you're arguing for a system where EVERYBODY is paranoid

It was Dorn. He called him out on Ethical grounds. Not Tactical grounds.
Dorn almost has a meltdown comparing himself to Curze, because he knows Curze is right! (I know for a fact that there are several people in this thread who have read/heard Dark King/Lightning Tower and can back me up)
Results are the best results.

In your opinion. Dorn's reactions are for very different reasons in mine.
And nobody has yet proved his results are any good.

Curze wasn't a failure. He was right. All the way to the end.
There are several stories that illustrate this.

Cite them and how they prove this then. Cause I'm remembering him siding with the losing side in a civil war and being driven into the back of beyond to hide from his brothers wrath

Nobody screws over Curze. Are you even reading?

Are you. His home planet, his brothers, factions of his own Legion, his father


I should just say I love 'The NightLord Trilogy'. It's just its very clear what monsters the NL and there primarch are

[Cheesegear]

Because Curze doesn't care about being effective. He acts inefficiently because all he really cares about is being a monster

That's exactly what he isn't. Curze isn't a monster because it's fun (see; Angron and Fulgrim, the real monsters). Curze is a monter because it is necessary. So...Sure, that's all he cares about. You win.

The problem, is when the dis-associative identity disorder kicks in, and he becomes Night Haunter. That's not Curze.

And Curze was wrong about [Mercy].

Again, I wont argue morality again.
I can only say that in Universe, Curze has been proven correct several times. Regardless of what we, the audience think.
It's called GrimDarkness.

But you're arguing for a system where EVERYBODY is paranoid

No. Nobody is paranoid, because nobody is doing dumb ****.
The second someone comes up to you and starts complaining about the Imperium, you shoot them in the head.
If they tell you about their cell, there's no problem.

Basically, planets Pacified by Curze, can only result in rebellions of one. Which immediately are put down.

And nobody has yet proved his results are any good.

So, Curze's planets that he does himself, result in 100% Pacification.
Curze also has to clean up his brothers' failures, ditto, resulting in Pacification.
Dorn himself, says Curze is right.
The reason for Curze being assassinated, says Curze was right.

And yet that's not 'proof'.

...'Kay. I'm done.

His home planet

His home planet never rebelled against him. Curze never Pacified his own planet. In fact he actively encouraged the way it was...Until they had to push it one step too far...In which case, he applied the same rules to his home planet that he did to everyone else; Actions have consequences.

his brothers

Not before he became Night Haunter, they didn't.
Dorn, rather explicitly, did not screw him over.

After he becomes Night Haunter...
Neither did Sanguinius.
Neither did Lion.
Both of them treat him exceptionally fairly, considering.

I don't remember what Guilliman and Vulkan had to say about him.
But Night Haunter gave Vulkan pretty severe PTSD first, so I'm sure Vulkan is justified in whatever he said.

factions of his own Legion

Pretty sure his own Legion feared him as much as anyone else did.
Fear of punishment kept every single one of them in line.
It was only after Curze died and wasn't around to enforce his will anymore, that things went to ****.

his father

The Emperor didn't do **** to him. That was kind of his point.
If what he was doing was wrong, he should've been punished.
The kick in the ****, however, is that he was eventually punished, because he was right.

It's just its very clear what monsters the NL and there primarch are

And I'm saying that that's irrelevant to being effective at what The Emperor tasked his Primarchs to do.

[Cikomyr]

Alpharius was one of the slow ones. Not the slowest, which was pre-Monarchia Lorgar, but he had a tendency to make things as complicated as possible by infiltrating spies, founding insurrectionist militias, turning politicians and so on, when all he really needed to do was to make planetfall, point at the ground and go: "See this? Mine." and shoot anyone who disagreed.:

Seems Alpharius should have been at the very fore of the Imperium Crusade. Basically scouting ahead, identifying the hardest and most resistant targets, and undermine them while the main invasion force is busy elsewhere.

It seemed like a very cost/efficient tactic. It's just long and a bit ******* around, but that's the point with undermining campaigns.

[Cheesegear]

It seemed like a very cost/efficient tactic. It's just long and a bit ******* around, but that's the point with undermining campaigns.

It worked in the Solar System itself - the most fortified system at the height of the Heresy. The only problem was that fighting in the Solar System meant fighting Dorn's Legion, and thus, Dorn was the opposing Commander.
So whilst Alpharius was effective, he wasn't effective for long.

[Cikomyr]

It worked in the Solar System itself. The only problem was that fighting in the Solar System meant fighting Dorn's Legion, and thus, Dorn was the opposing Commander.
So whilst Alpharius was effective, he wasn't effective for long.

Well, if you mean business you can't just use these tactics forever. You need to eventually hammer the resistance.

Also, I don't think you can say it worked in the Solar System if Dorn managed to eventually thwart these tactics. The whole point of undermining campaign is that you are formless and impossible to attack openly, and your opponent has to defend their entire front without even knowing where you next strike will be. How did Dorn beat him?

[Cheesegear]

Also, I don't think you can say it worked in the Solar System if Dorn managed to eventually thwart these tactics. The whole point of undermining campaign is that you are formless and impossible to attack openly, and your opponent has to defend their entire front without even knowing where you next strike will be. How did Dorn beat him?

Because a campaign has to have a goal. You can't endlessly strike at targets of opportunity. There has to be an Objective to the attacks.
Dorn figured that everything Alpharius did was pointless, unless Alpharius could take Pluto.
So Dorn beelines to Pluto, and ignores every other engagement, because everything else means nothing, unless the primary objective can be completed.

Which is basically the flaw in all guerilla tactics. If your opponent can figure out what you want, you lose.

[Cikomyr]

Because a campaign has to have a goal. You can't endlessly strike at targets of opportunity. There has to be an Objective to the attacks.
Dorn figured that everything Alpharius did was pointless, unless Alpharius could take Pluto.
So Dorn beelines to Pluto, and ignores every other engagement, because everything else means nothing, unless the primary objective can be completed.

Which is basically the flaw in all guerilla tactics. If your opponent can figure out what you want, you lose.

Ooohhh thats smart.

I mean, Alpharius could still have wrecked havoc in Mars and Terra, right?

[Cheesegear]

I mean, Alpharius could still have wrecked havoc in Mars and Terra, right?

Mars was already lost a while back.

Terra has Terran forces. They'll be fine.

Dorn, needs to be at Pluto.

[thethird]

For what is worth I always took Alpharius suicide by Dorn as a way of proving Dorn that he wasn't right. It followed Curze's revelation to Dorn and was a final nail on the coffin. Dorn isn't his father, Dorn isn't right, but he can learn from the ordeal.

Also, I believe that Alpharius didn't switch tactics, and maintained the same strategy, on the confrontation with Dorn to prove a point. The Alpha legion is all about adapting, there wasn't much adaption on that story, at least from the Alpha legion side of things. Dorn did adapt and learn, and later would defend the palace better. To me it seems more like a Blood Game than a war.

(of course I am an Alpha Legion fan Alpharius, so my reading might be extremely biased)

[Cheesegear]

For what is worth I always took Alpharius suicide by Dorn as a way of proving Dorn that he wasn't right.

Curze said that Dorn had to be brutal to win the fight that was coming. Dorn said that wasn't how wars were won. Then Curze Night Haunter proceeded to tear out one of Dorn's hearts. Literally.

Alpharius was fighting 'for the Emperor', and 'for Dorn'. That made no sense to Dorn. But Alpharius was essentially trying to get Dorn to see Curze's point. Which Dorn even admitted later, was right. He just didn't think he had it in him. Dorn must fight his Brothers, if he's to win. Mercy has to go out the window.

Seeing Archamus dead on the floor, was a pretty heavy straw. In my headcanon, Alpharius stabbed Dorn in the chest. But Dorn's heart was no longer there. Night Haunter had literally and figuratively ripped out Dorn's heart from before. I mean, I don't know if John French knew that Dorn was missing a heart. But it's amazing if he did know.

And if Dorn's execution of Alpharius wasn't brutal, I don't know what is.

Alpharius gave Dorn the strength to fight his brothers, and he needs that strength to win the war. Remember, Alpharius was on The Emperor's side.
That's what makes his fight with Dorn so good, because he forces his brother to kill him, for his brother's own good.
It's amazing.

[lord_khaine]

I'm not saying the NL can't fight when they have to but that's not what is being discussed. The claim is being made that's it the NL's torturing that make their methods the best and I'm arguing it makes them the worse. To use your own example G leaves planets proud to be part of the Imperium. That will work hard and raise Imperial Legions that will fight with passion and dedication and the NL leave traumatized survivors of atrocities working badly for the same regime that unleashed horror on them

Yeah i dont see said planets from being very effective for a long while either.
On that metric i actually think Lorgars method were the best.
It might have been slower. But it left people who actually wanted to be a part of this.

[thethird]

Alpharius gave Dorn the strength to fight his brothers, and he needs that strength to win the war. Remember, Alpharius was on The Emperor's side.
That's what makes his fight with Dorn so good, because he forces his brother to kill him, for his brother's own good.
It's amazing.

Yes, very much this. I like that head cannon.

Have I also shared at some point my head cannon that Omegon is pulling the strings behind the deathwatch and hunting the cabal?

[comicshorse]

That's exactly what he isn't. Curze isn't a monster because it's fun (see; Angron and Fulgrim, the real monsters). Curze is a monter because it is necessary. So...Sure, that's all he cares about. You win.

I utterly disagree. Curze is a monster and we KNOW this because EVERYONE of his children is. Curze is exactly a monster because it's his nature and he tries to hide this by spouting off about 'how its necessary' but niote how exactly none of his Brothers agree with him
Curze is a flat out monster. Everything he does is to feed the monster or lie to himself that he is. He doesn't give a damn about efficiency which is why he acts so inefficent.

Again, I wont argue morality again.
I can only say that in Universe, Curze has been proven correct several times.

Citations. You keep saying this but provide no proof

No. Nobody is paranoid, because nobody is doing dumb ****.
The second someone comes up to you and starts complaining about the Imperium, you shoot them in the head.
If they tell you about their cell, there's no problem.

Basically, planets Pacified by Curze, can only result in rebellions of one. Which immediately are put down.

That is so ridiculously over simplifying things I've just got one word to say : Nostramo

So, Curze's planets that he does himself, result in 100% Pacification.
Curze also has to clean up his brothers' failures, ditto, resulting in Pacification.

Nostramo. SO not 100 per cent.
Give me...say three worlds that Dorn pacified that completelly rebelled

Dorn himself, says Curze is right.

No, he doesn't. Citation

The reason for Curze being assassinated, says Curze was right.

No it absolutely doesn't. Citation

And yet that's not 'proof'.

Yes, exactly. Its NOT proof. Its just you saying stuff and providing no.....Can you guess the next word. It begins with a 'C'

His home planet never rebelled against him. Curze never Pacified his own planet. In fact he actively encouraged the way it was...Until they had to push it one step too far...In which case, he applied the same rules to his home planet that he did to everyone else; Actions have consequences.

Yes it did and yes he did. That's what the whole Night haunter bit was about remember. And he did not 'actively encourage it the way it was' . The 'Night Lord trilogy' makes that very clear

retty sure his own Legion feared him as much as anyone else did.
Fear of punishment kept every single one of them in line.
It was only after Curze died and wasn't around to enforce his will anymore, that things went to ****.

That must be why in 'Prince of Crows' the vast majority of his legion abandon him to his fate aboard the Lion's ship. So no, not kept in line in the slightest

The Emperor didn't do **** to him. That was kind of his point.
If what he was doing was wrong, he should've been punished.
The kick in the ****, however, is that he was eventually punished, because he was right.

You mean apart from have his loyal sons kick Curze and his legion ass until they fled. And no he wasn't punished because he was right, he was punished because he was a traitor

And I'm saying that that's irrelevant to being effective at what The Emperor tasked his Primarchs to do.

And I'm saying it didn't make him particularly effective. Especially when it gets his own Brothers to turn on him, hardly the formula for a successful galaxy conquest

Posted by Lord Khaine

Yeah i dont see said planets from being very effective for a long while either.
On that metric i actually think Lorgars method were the best.
It might have been slower. But it left people who actually wanted to be a part of this.

I quite agree. Maybe Alpharius's way of undermining the planets for slightly faster but with more damage

[Wraith]

Seems Alpharius should have been at the very fore of the Imperium Crusade. Basically scouting ahead, identifying the hardest and most resistant targets, and undermine them while the main invasion force is busy elsewhere.

It seemed like a very cost/efficient tactic. It's just long and a bit ******* around, but that's the point with undermining campaigns.

That's pretty much it, in a nutshell. Some worlds can't be easily conquered by force, even by the Imperium - they're heavily fortified, or rampant with xenotech and the rest, and trying to win by attrition would result in months or even years of slaughter on both sides. That's when you send in the Alpha Legion, to soften them up and have them kill themselves before you deliver the killing blow. And it always worked, because the Alpha Legion were just that damn good at it.

The problem is, Alpharius did the same thing to EVERYONE whether they were a tough target or not, just to prove that he could. For every world he overturned with necessary deceit and manipulation, there were two more where he could have just landed a few drop pods, decapitated the local government and moved on within a week.

When Guilliman criticised Alpharius, what Guilliman said was that the methods were unnecessarily complicated and sometimes there were easier ways of getting what he wanted. What Alpharius heard was that Guilliman thought his plans were bad and stupid and that he should stop screwing around and do it Guilliman's way, because Guilliman said so. That annoyance became a grievance, and with Horus whispering in his ear to goad him on it festered and became a grudge.

Yeah i dont see said planets from being very effective for a long while either.
On that metric i actually think Lorgars method were the best.
It might have been slower. But it left people who actually wanted to be a part of this.

Part of the problem was also that Lorgar was telling people that they should join the Imperium so that they could serve a literal God who walked the stars and was Divine in every way. While effective, it didn't gel with what the Emperor actually wanted, which was to implement the Imperial Truth. People *wanting* to be a part of that just made the problem worse.

Have I also shared at some point my head cannon that Omegon is pulling the strings behind the deathwatch and hunting the cabal?

The problem with Omegon is that he could be anywhere, which in turn usually gets interpreted that he must be EVERYWHERE.

The Alpha Legion are masters of infiltration and espionage, literally swapping faces with other Astartes and taking their place with psychically-created sleeper-agents dispersed in key places. As such, given the elaborate timescale and labyrinthine origins of most Imperial organisations, there's going to be something, somewhere, that could indicate a malicious origin.

The Grey Knights are pretty much the only secretive organisation that probably hasn't been infiltrated - and even then, only probably - but everything else including Loyalist Chapters, the Adeptus Machanicus, the Ecclesiarchy, and the Inquistion? They could have Alpha Legion Operatives in them, or possibly even have them as their Progenitors, depending on who you ask.

In the literal canon, however; the Deathwatch is not supposed to have been an Alpha Legion endeavour. They were created during the War of the Beast, when experienced Astartes Kill Teams were needed to go hunt down Beasts and there wasn't time to found a whole new Chapter to do it. So, a bunch of volunteers were put together and authority to act as an independent Chapter was invested in them by the then-Lord Commander of the Imperium Koorland of the Imperial Fists just before he died - obviously any of those guys could have been Alpha Legion in disguise, but otherwise the Deathwatch founding was a legitimate Imperial thing.

[Platinius]

Which is weird, 'cause Curze blew up Nostromo precisely to leave the past.

Irony's a bitch, isn't it?



Also, Cruze is both 100% correct and 100% wrong at the same time. Fear makes people compliant, yes. But only if they believe if the threat is real. Bad interstellar communications and lack of news services, rumours, propaganda and deliberate misinformation make any tale of several thousand warriors coming to slaughter you and your people for not toeing the party line a hard pill to swallow. Particularly if you are power player like many politicians and wealthy industrialists are, people with everything to gain.
Even at the best of times, each inhabited planet is mostly shut of from the rest of the galaxy. This 40k, not quality Star Trek. (Ironically, 40k's FTL travel is much, much faster than Star Trek's)
For his method to work, he must come with his legion to every planet and essentially commit every brutal massacre themselves. Then it works and only on the planets where they set foot and did the deeds.
The problem is not that the Imperium didn't hear from the rebellions, it was that the billions of people living for decades within their own bubble had a hard time believing that sort of threat, particularly if they only see downsides. And just to make it clear, the local government may warn the rebellious population that the NL may be coming, but by that point the rebellion is probably already winning and will only be seen as a desperate attempt to reassert control. Particularly if that local government had tried it before but nothing happened for years. Cry wolf and all that.

PS: I am sorry. I didn't want to start such a heated debate, only pleasant conversation.
PPS: lots of people living in a bubble, does that not sound familiar?

[Cikomyr]

Even at the best of times, each inhabited planet is mostly shut of from the rest of the galaxy. This 40k, not quality Star Trek. (Ironically, 40k's FTL travel is much, much faster than Star Trek's)

Let's be fair. What Warp Drive lacks in speed, it more than make up in reliability compared to the Warp.