Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

[LeSwordfish]

Lord of the Rings has 9 males in it as the main characters. The Hobbit has...In fact, I can't remember any females in The Hobbit, not even secondary characters.
Those are good stories, right?

Tolkien was famous for flipping coins to write his books. Incidentally, this rock keeps tigers away.

(i.e; Toxic masculinity was a Thing last year around this time, even).

Toxic masculinity: real big around april 2018, a bit passe now.

[Forum Explorer]

The Guard and the Navy have always been split since the Heresy. Until they weren't and now they are the Astra Militarum.

Astartes were the pinnacle of soldier engineering technology. Until they weren't.

Taus were nice guys, until they weren't.

Women can't be Space Marine. Until they won't. Start soft; make it a woman who has a XY chromosome pair, and claim this is why it happened. And then just slowly expand the lore to make good stories, and don't let the limitations of yesteryear stop you.

Wait, I thought the first one was still the case. Where does it say that changed?

Sure.

Tau always had shady stuff associated with them. It's just more blatant now.

[Silverraptor]

Everyone's got their bits of headcanon. It doesnt mean we'll be writing novels with it anytime soon though, or that they'd make good stories. For those of us who'd like to read more of what 40k / 30k already is, its good for the sake of narrative consistency and a steady theme.

I have a head canon that I know will never come to pass. It involves a Space Marine Legion I created known as the "Sand Jackals" off in the fringes of the galaxy and forgotten about. The planet they are stuck on is a desert world with horrible demons from the warp constantly spawning from the warp on. With no way off and no way to call for reinforcements and forgotten, they accidentally discovered the world as a Necron Tomb World that just starts waking up. The Necron leader decides that the demons spawning all over the place take precedence over the rag tag bunch of Space Marines and a truce between to two groups is wordlessly agreed to. After many years of fights, perhaps even decades, the non-aggression pact as bloomed into an alliance as the demons have shown no sign of slowing down in their spawning. With the alliance and fighting side-by-side, this Space Marine group has been allowed to incorporate Necron weaponry and some designs to add to their few remaining supplies so they could keep up the fight.

I know there is probably 103 different reasons why none of this could ever happen lore wise, but I don't care. It's badass in my mind.

[Destro_Yersul]

Model wise, I'd be happy with when the guard (or indeed, any range) get redesigned there are some with more feminine facial features, and some more explicitly female character models. The recent Genestealer CUlts range is an example of the sort of thing I applaud. As you say, in armour they look very similar, so it doesn't need much work beyond a headswap or so. The Stormcast range is also pretty good for this.

I was talking with my wife about this, and asked the question of what other range there is? Space Marines are likely out due to established fluff, and even if female recruits were allowed the armour and process would turn them all into huge buff genderless super soldiers anyways. Sisters are already all female. Apart from Electro-priests you can't tell with any of the Mechanicus, Imperial Knights are all huge stompy robots. Chaos daemons? Maybe could be some there. Technically there's daemonettes. Chaos marines? Same problem as the regular ones, but worse because a lot of Chaos is original recipe. Cultists would be great, but more cultists would be great in general, because the only available option is exactly 5 easy-to-build single poses.

So then we get down to aliens. Tyranids are genderless bug monsters. Stealer cults have some female heads in there, great. Necrons are all robots. Tau all wear form-concealing armour. Orks are fungoid football hooligans. That leaves Eldar and Dark Eldar, both of which have female minis in them. You could probably do something with the Eldar HQ choices, but as far as basic troops go the torso options are already there.

So really it's just guard, and the guard range is probably due for a redesign anyways. Who's to say they won't chuck in a few extra heads?

[bluntpencil]

The Guard and the Navy have always been split since the Heresy. Until they weren't and now they are the Astra Militarum.

They're still split, even says so in the Astra Militarum Codex.

[LansXero]

So really it's just guard, and the guard range is probably due for a redesign anyways. Who's to say they won't chuck in a few extra heads?

Sure but as Drasius pointed out, a girl with short-cropped hair wearing a helmet and flak armor would probably look like random Cadian #12, so it really is just catachan-like models or officer-heads (as they are the ones who go without helmets).

[Drasius]

This is precisely why I don't get upset about there being no female Space Marines - however, expecting other female characters, in stories written today, is reasonably fair.

Fair to a point, but you're still going to have to respect the setting more or less, though having said that, there's currently nothing stopping anyone from entering any of the various armies armed forces as far as I'm aware beyond the obvious for SM and SoB.

But... I care more about the miniatures, like I said. The 40K RPGs do a good job of including female characters, and I'd like that to be reflected on the table.

Fair. I would note that the range of special characters were almost exclusively written decades ago and even now, the "real world" militaries (bar one that immediately springs to mind) have a roughly 0-5% female combat roster and probably less than a 10th of that for command roles. At the time it was written, the idea of having females in combat roles was pretty out there, so it's no great surprise that there weren't any female characters. As Severina has demonstrated, I fully expect there to be female guard models incoming (and have no doubt that there will be a backlash from parts of the community when it happens), but there's the issue that GW has already severely cut down the guard line already, banishing well established regiments to the dustbin along with special characters.

From there, it's a bit of an interesting conundrum, because if you ditch support for existing armies to make room for whatever female heavy regiment you write in, you're alienating the players who have had their army discontinued to gain the support of a rather small handful of individuals who may not even like the theme of said army, and as such, you've lost sales. At the same time, you're going to have troubles introducing a new army so soon after you just cut older armies when the reason they gave was due to bloat in the dex. The obvious solution is to do exactly what they've done - introduce a new female model to an existing army and give her a novel so people care about her, but they done goofed, because as nice a model as it is, it's failcast, and nobody wants that noise.

It's a living work which gets retconned and overhaulled on a timescale of once every few years. I'll judge the original Rogue Trader book by the standards of the 80s and the current setting by the standards of today.

And you should (within reason for some things established as part of the setting). But you (and others) seem to be complaining about stuff that isn't a thing. Cheese has already pointed this out a bunch, but I'm going to do it again, 'cause it seems like some people aren't listening - There have been more stories with female protagonists released in the last 2 years than the entire previous 40 lifetime. If that's not fast enough for you, well, I don't know what to say, that's a you problem.

I think that's a judgement that we're all free to make for ourselves from the evidence before us.

It is, and mine is that you're so one-eyed about this that you're seeing what you want to see and looking for an excuse to point fingers when there's nothing there.

I think what you're missing, Cheesegear, is the idea that the male character is the default which is, for better or worse, a fact of our society. As such, there isn't a need to return to the default because it is such a thing; What is expected. Whereas when someone successfully challenges a cultural and artistic default, especially successfully, such things should be celebrated and encouraged.

It's an inherently military setting, it's very natural that male is the default 'cause that's how it is here, and even in the Imperium. Hell, for the Imperium to be sustainable from the amount of people they spend, I'm surprised that we don't have more quiet Krieg situations or that women aren't ...discouraged from combat duties in order to pump out more soldiers.

I'm also not sure why you think that challenging the status quo is a thing to be celebrated?

Full camo netting and face paint? I couldnt tell either apart from a plant, so I get what you are saying. But sororitas armor is already far from any practical battle gear. They wear freaking high heels, boob plate, armored corsets and go without a helmet. So I think its already a bit too late to ask for practical get up or focus on how much it resembles actual military personnel.

1 model made as a throwback to bad good so-bad-it's-good 80's art has heels, every other model has flat heeled power armour as far as I can tell from looking at my SoB's, though I don't have every model in their range. Also, they have helmeted models, but since you buy battle sisters in random packs of 3, you get what you get, though I'd say that going into battle with no helmet is a surefire way to not have a pretty face for very long.

The boob plate and armoured corsets are a thing due to the decree passive (no men under arms) and is more a style thing for show than anything that would restrict movement or expose vital locations ala chainmail bikinis, though I'm not sure why you think it's not practical, again, the books, codecies and audios make it very clear that they're running around in full power armour, if a bit less sophisticated than the version for marines.

Also and less related, the large majority of soldiers in my country serve support roles, not frontline roles. Its a tradition that goes way back to the many wars we've fought (and lost) since colonial times, from when a soldier's wife would be right there with him providing ammo, making food and tending to his wounds. So military women arent rare, but they are often with non-combat personnel, so they do look distinctly female, even when deployed.

And that's fine, but there is very limited opportunities to have non-combat models in a wargame - Support staff just don't have a place in the TT in 99% of situations.

Surprisingly, I never was a 10 year-old girl.

Lies, you don't fool me ;)

[bluntpencil]

Sure but as Drasius pointed out, a girl with short-cropped hair wearing a helmet and flak armor would probably look like random Cadian #12, so it really is just catachan-like models or officer-heads (as they are the ones who go without helmets).

The current Cadian range are very obviously all male at present. In spite of the scale, it's still very easy to tell male from female, even with helmets. If it wasn't, Victoria Miniatures wouldn't sell so many.

[JNAProductions]

I have a head canon that I know will never come to pass. It involves a Space Marine Legion I created known as the "Sand Jackals" off in the fringes of the galaxy and forgotten about. The planet they are stuck on is a desert world with horrible demons from the warp constantly spawning from the warp on. With no way off and no way to call for reinforcements and forgotten, they accidentally discovered the world as a Necron Tomb World that just starts waking up. The Necron leader decides that the demons spawning all over the place take precedence over the rag tag bunch of Space Marines and a truce between to two groups is wordlessly agreed to. After many years of fights, perhaps even decades, the non-aggression pact as bloomed into an alliance as the demons have shown no sign of slowing down in their spawning. With the alliance and fighting side-by-side, this Space Marine group has been allowed to incorporate Necron weaponry and some designs to add to their few remaining supplies so they could keep up the fight.

I know there is probably 103 different reasons why none of this could ever happen lore wise, but I don't care. It's badass in my mind.

That sounds awesome.

[LansXero]

And that's fine, but there is very limited opportunities to have non-combat models in a wargame - Support staff just don't have a place in the TT in 99% of situations.

Thats literally what hospitallers and dialogus are, and they've got models and rules. So can I at least have pretty versions of those? :D

[Brookshw]

Would Supernatural be a better show if one or both of the two boys, were girls?
...Well, I guess Wynonna Earp will tell us.
Would Wynonna Earp be a better show, if one or both of two sisters, were boys?

Well they sure were **** shows the way they were cast to begin with. So, sure. Why not.

And if you were to look at said hotties when they're wearing full combat gear from the top of a 20 or 30 story building when they're on the ground (ala roughly the height from which you'd view most minis when playing), could you identify if they were female or not? Also, ask your dad if he thinks that a fully kitted up soldier looks much different if they're female or not at a range of ~30 metres - I'd wager he'll say they look close-as-makes-no-difference the same unless you really look for it.

It's actually been a problem for us when working on Sociology books. You go to look for photos of women in the military to demonstrate shifting gender roles. Sounds good so far. Then when you find good photos of soldiers in the field, the soldiers can't really be identified as one gender or the other. Kinda defeats the purpose.

[Drasius]

Thats literally what hospitallers and dialogus are, and they've got models and rules. So can I at least have pretty versions of those? :D

If you feel the need to turn your sisters into Order Militant's Next Top Model, then sure, knock yourself out, they're your models.

[Avaris]

I was talking with my wife about this, and asked the question of what other range there is? Space Marines are likely out due to established fluff, and even if female recruits were allowed the armour and process would turn them all into huge buff genderless super soldiers anyways. Sisters are already all female. Apart from Electro-priests you can't tell with any of the Mechanicus, Imperial Knights are all huge stompy robots. Chaos daemons? Maybe could be some there. Technically there's daemonettes. Chaos marines? Same problem as the regular ones, but worse because a lot of Chaos is original recipe. Cultists would be great, but more cultists would be great in general, because the only available option is exactly 5 easy-to-build single poses.

So then we get down to aliens. Tyranids are genderless bug monsters. Stealer cults have some female heads in there, great. Necrons are all robots. Tau all wear form-concealing armour. Orks are fungoid football hooligans. That leaves Eldar and Dark Eldar, both of which have female minis in them. You could probably do something with the Eldar HQ choices, but as far as basic troops go the torso options are already there.

So really it's just guard, and the guard range is probably due for a redesign anyways. Who's to say they won't chuck in a few extra heads?

Good analysis. You’re right that there are limited opportunities in the current line up, though my expectation is we’re going to see more new ranges like Rogue Traders and Inquisition or something in the near future, as GW starts exploring the stranger corners.

This is why more female characters in existing ranges is important: before Severina Raine there were no female guard special characters, the Eldar have only the one I think, from the aspect shrine renowned for all being women. The Tau have 1. Mechanicus have none. Necrons (who are gendered despite being robots) have none. Compare to the vast quantities of male characters for those factions.

The problem with the current offering is that the female characters are special because they are female. That’s what makes them unique. It’s like in many children’s shows: if you look at the line up in the show, you’ll see that there are archetypes characters fit into. The sporty one. The nerdy one. The female one. It’s their distinguishing character trait! What I want is for there to be sufficient female characters that we remember them for their personalities and deeds: space for the good quality female characters that are being called for. I can’t pass judgement on the novels as to whether they contain characters memorable for their deeds, I’m focussed on the codex and model fluff. But this is why quantity is also important.

The limited opportunities for female characters in the current line up is also why I personally feel female Space Marines are vital, because there are limited opportunities elsewhere and marines are so dominant in perspectives of the hobby. You’re absolutely correct that by becoming a space marine you become beyond gender to some extent: I don’t want anything other than the opportunity for head swaps (which I do in my own collection already)! But it’s an opportunity for characters to be incidentally female in the same way as marines are currently arguably incidentally male: their maleness doesn’t really matter to their characters. Neither would the gender of female space marines matter most of the time. This could be taken as an argument against them: if the gender doesn’t matter, why should they exist? But my perspective is ‘why shouldn’t they?’ I know that inertia and the uproar in certain corners make it unlikely to happen (though frankly people mortally offended by the idea of female marines are not people I want in my hobby - not seeing the need and not wanting to rock the boat is fine, but some people are violently against the concept), but one can dream!

[Platinius]

As someone that served, I can tell you this:
When the boys and girls are fully geared and camouflaged up, the only really distinguishing feature is the voice. And miniatures do not make sounds.

But for funzies, you can make models with slightly longer hair (the girls in the army of my country were allowed to keep their hair long) and finer faces with slimmer chins.
Mind you that long hair is not universal sign of femininity looks to the Space Corgies who have the longest hair of all Imperials

Here is some food for thought. The only in-universe reason why the Sisters' of Battle have breasts modeled into the chest pieces of their power armour is because they chose to.
I am not saying their armour wouldn't have cups to fit the breasts (some women got very small ones and some got big ones, fact of life) inside their armour, but it would have probably been a hell of a lot easier to just make the chest pieces like (interestingly enough) Severina Raine's while leaving enough space on the inside for the women's potentially voluptuous curves.
But the SoB didn't choose to go with the single bell shaped chest piece, because they wanted to show off that they are women. (It is a major part of why they are allowed to persist in the Imperium despite the Imperial Cult being explicitly forbidden to have standing forces; beyond looking amazing I mean )

[Forum Explorer]

This is why more female characters in existing ranges is important: before Severina Raine there were no female guard special characters, the Eldar have only the one I think, from the aspect shrine renowned for all being women. The Tau have 1. Mechanicus have none. Necrons (who are gendered despite being robots) have none. Compare to the vast quantities of male characters for those factions.

Special Character wise? Eldar have two counting Yvraine. Three if you count the Spiritseer who used to be a special character.

Model wise there are banshees of course, but I believe some guardians are also female. Also some Warlocks and Farseers I think.

[Wardog]

Take the regular IG model; what features would you say could make them 'Asian guard'? Face detail only goes so far, so what could the models include for them to properly represent them? Also, there are no asian-themed regiments with rules, right? So how would the fluff work? Im genuinally curious.

Do we need a specifically "Asian" regiment, or "Asian" rules?

None of the existing regiments is essentially "white" (even though the art almost always shows them as such).

Catachans are themed off the Vietnam War, and the fluff and the rules would work just as well if they drew their aesthetic from the Viet Cong rather than Rambo. (Also, IMO, the existing models don't all necessarily look "white", and I've painted mine in a variety of skin tones).

For Cadians, the visual aesthetic (and rules) is just "soldiers", rather than any specific real-world nationality or ethnicity, so Asian (or any other ethnicity) heads would work fine for them.

Russia is mostly in Asia, so Asian heads would fit the Russian-themed regiments aesthetic.

Militarum Tempestus doesn't recruit from a single planet, and the rules and aesthetics aren't based on any specific culture, so could have heads representing any and all ethnicities.

Armageddon hide their faces, so ethnicity is irrelivent.

Mordian uniforms and tactics are very 19th-Centuy European in theme. So if you gave them the right heads and accessories, they could be Meiji-era Japanese as well.

Of the codex regiments, that just leaves Tallarn, who in fluff and aesthetics are Arab/Bedouin, but in rules terms are "highly mobile, and good at outflanking", which could work for a Mongol-themed regiment (or Plains Indians, or biker gangs, or any fast moving force regardless of any or no specific culture).

[Wraith]

I know there is probably 103 different reasons why none of this could ever happen lore wise, but I don't care. It's badass in my mind.

It actually sounds a little bit like the Soul Drinkers, who were forced into Chaos corruption out of necessity rather than intent. The only difference is, your guys commit techno-heresy - they're still loyal and serving the Imperium, but anyone who looks at them will only see their glowing eyes and green-flamed guns. A tragedy waiting to happen, but definitely an interesting one.

I was talking with my wife about this, and asked the question of what other range there is?

Beastmen, like Tzaangors? They started out as mortals, so there's no really good reason why some of them couldn't retain their feminine features.
Assassins? The fluff sometimes says that Callidus should be female, but there's absolutely no reason why that has to stay, or why there can't be female Vindicare/Eversor/Culexus Assassins.
Inquisitors? While probably better balanced than most forces, a lot of the classic miniatures are out of production so they could be revived with a new look. Their warbands, too, have a lot of opportunities for female characters outside of the scantily-clad Death Cultists. Why couldn't a Crusader, a Daemonhost or a Priest be female, after all?

Eldar have only the one I think, from the aspect shrine renowned for all being women.

I was about to say there are two, because right up until I *just* checked it I thought Illic Nightspear was female. That was a missed opportunity, as he wears so many loose fitting robes and Eldar look quite feminine anyway that had GW announced him as female then no one would have noticed otherwise. *shrug*

[Avaris]

Special Character wise? Eldar have two counting Yvraine. Three if you count the Spiritseer who used to be a special character.

Model wise there are banshees of course, but I believe some guardians are also female. Also some Warlocks and Farseers I think.

Ah yes, forgot Yvraine, was only thinking Craftworld. Still, looking at Craftworld plus Ynnari, you have 9 male, 2 female, and 2 ambiguous (avatar and Yncarne). Expanding into Dark Eldar, you get another 2 male and 1 female (wow, there aren’t many Dark Eldar special characters, and none for Harlequins). Not exactly great for a race for whom one of the main things is that everyone is called upon to fight!

And yes, there are some female models in the Guardian squads etc, but it’s a ratio of 1:4 in the box set. None of the generic HQ models in the craftworld eldar appear obviously female, but in fairness they’re not coded explicitly male either, so I’ll give them a pass on that.

So there are undeniably female models, but still few enough that they become exceptional for being female. Based on the eldar fluff (and in the novels as far as I can tell) there should be far more! This is why special characters are important, and the introduction of Yvraine is a positive step (though she is not core Craftworld) by having named faces, it creates an opportunity to tell stories about them.

[Cikomyr]

As someone that served, I can tell you this:
When the boys and girls are fully geared and camouflaged up, the only really distinguishing feature is the voice. And miniatures do not make sounds.

I suppose there would be no harm in having some more feminine faces in the head sprue. It'd be subtle, but it would be there.

A sergeant head with some long hair tied in a ponytail would be nice too. Or a bun.

Or Lt Mira.

[Destro_Yersul]

Model wise there are banshees of course, but I believe some guardians are also female. Also some Warlocks and Farseers I think.

I didn't find any warlocks/farseers when I was skimming through the range. Mostly it's the Banshees, and the ones on the Guardians sprue.

Beastmen, like Tzaangors? They started out as mortals, so there's no really good reason why some of them couldn't retain their feminine features.
Assassins? The fluff sometimes says that Callidus should be female, but there's absolutely no reason why that has to stay, or why there can't be female Vindicare/Eversor/Culexus Assassins.
Inquisitors? While probably better balanced than most forces, a lot of the classic miniatures are out of production so they could be revived with a new look. Their warbands, too, have a lot of opportunities for female characters outside of the scantily-clad Death Cultists. Why couldn't a Crusader, a Daemonhost or a Priest be female, after all?

Beastmen I'll concede, that would be a pretty simple torso swap. Assassins... Well, 1/4 of the minis is female already. You could do alternates, but it's probably pretty low priority. I believe there are some third-party female assassins. The rest of the Inquisition range is a good point. I mostly skipped over it because there are some females (Greyfax, the Death Cultists) and the range as a whole is very small.

Ah yes, forgot Yvraine, was only thinking Craftworld. Still, looking at Craftworld plus Ynnari, you have 9 male, 2 female, and 2 ambiguous (avatar and Yncarne). Expanding into Dark Eldar, you get another 2 male and 1 female (wow, there aren’t many Dark Eldar special characters, and none for Harlequins). Not exactly great for a race for whom one of the main things is that everyone is called upon to fight!

And yes, there are some female models in the Guardian squads etc, but it’s a ratio of 1:4 in the box set. None of the generic HQ models in the craftworld eldar appear obviously female, but in fairness they’re not coded explicitly male either, so I’ll give them a pass on that.

So there are undeniably female models, but still few enough that they become exceptional for being female. Based on the eldar fluff (and in the novels as far as I can tell) there should be far more! This is why special characters are important, and the introduction of Yvraine is a positive step (though she is not core Craftworld) by having named faces, it creates an opportunity to tell stories about them.

The Dark Eldar range actually has a lot of female minis in it, probably because it's newer. Wyches, the Raider, Reavers, Warriors, the Venom, Hellions, Scourges... All have at least one female torso in the kit. Lelith is the only named female character, but the Succubus and the Lhamaen are both female minis. The Harlequins have no female characters, but the Troupe itself has some pretty clear females, as do the Skyweavers and the Voidweaver/Starweaver kits.

If you want a true 50/50 split, then yeah, the guardians don't have enough female torsos. But they do have some, and the original question was "which ranges should have female minis but don't." Or at least, that's how I read it.

[Platinius]

The Catachanian also have black soldiers in their artwork.

The standard Craftworld combat kit for Eldar Guardians is a fully encompassing armoured and powered suit (string enough so that the suit carries itself) with a surprisingly large chest piece, easily leaving the rather modestly chested eldar females with ample room.

If I ever get around to, I intend to write a (short) story in which a Banshee would reveal itself to be a dude at the end while the Main Characters (including an DA Wych) thought he was a she, because he talks about himself as a she and even sounds like a she while in full Banshee kit and submerged in his female Banshee persona. Then, out of kit and out of his Banshee persona, he would suddenly be a rather shy dude while his Banshee persona was breathtakingly brash and commandeering (much to the disappointment of the Wych who wanted to bang that brash and commandeering Eldar XD)

Or Lt Mira.

<3<3<3<3<3<3

[Forum Explorer]

I didn't find any warlocks/farseers when I was skimming through the range. Mostly it's the Banshees, and the ones on the Guardians sprue.

Maybe I'm thinking of a custom model I saw one time then.

Ah yes, forgot Yvraine, was only thinking Craftworld. Still, looking at Craftworld plus Ynnari, you have 9 male, 2 female, and 2 ambiguous (avatar and Yncarne). Expanding into Dark Eldar, you get another 2 male and 1 female (wow, there aren’t many Dark Eldar special characters, and none for Harlequins). Not exactly great for a race for whom one of the main things is that everyone is called upon to fight!

And yes, there are some female models in the Guardian squads etc, but it’s a ratio of 1:4 in the box set. None of the generic HQ models in the craftworld eldar appear obviously female, but in fairness they’re not coded explicitly male either, so I’ll give them a pass on that.

So there are undeniably female models, but still few enough that they become exceptional for being female. Based on the eldar fluff (and in the novels as far as I can tell) there should be far more! This is why special characters are important, and the introduction of Yvraine is a positive step (though she is not core Craftworld) by having named faces, it creates an opportunity to tell stories about them.

To be fair most of the Phoenix Lords have basically no fluff associated with them. As far as I'm aware it's just Asuraman, Zair, and Khanadras. Going into Dark Eldar fluff you get Vect's rival (or the closest he has to one anyways) who is female.

Fluff wise, Eldar do really well with female characters. I think in part because of Dawn of War where the Farseer was always female (IIRC)

[hamishspence]

Genestealer Cults have been moving in that direction recently - the Magus, the Jackal Alphus.

[Cikomyr]

<3<3<3<3<3<3

GW would do well to create a model based off Lt Mira. As either sergeant or Lt

[Silverraptor]

It actually sounds a little bit like the Soul Drinkers, who were forced into Chaos corruption out of necessity rather than intent. The only difference is, your guys commit techno-heresy - they're still loyal and serving the Imperium, but anyone who looks at them will only see their glowing eyes and green-flamed guns. A tragedy waiting to happen, but definitely an interesting one.

I know. They commit it out of necessity as the last bolter round has been fired and they needed something to keep firing and patch their damaged and worn out vehicles up. And the suits might need repairs here and there and... you get it. Would till be very interesting, I agree.

[LansXero]

marines are currently arguably incidentally male: their maleness doesn’t really matter to their characters.

wat. What marines do you mean? The ones whose brotherhood is hardwired into their genes? The ones who are taken from feral teens pumped full of testosterone?

Marine character might not be treatises on the nuances of masculinity, but they are indubitably male and their maleness does impact the stories where they are present.

[Voidhawk]

So, things we have discussed:

- It turns out there are a vast number of novels with important/interesting female characters. But no-one reads them for that reason, they read them because they're interested in the setting/story/novels to begin with.

- Those army ranges that female-minis make sense in (eg not marines, nids, orks, or necrons) have them, with the exception of guard which are some of the oldest range. And multiple third-parties produce them if you want them.

- Many people still feel that the story doesn't have enough female characters/representation.

So, why do people feel that way? My hunch, is that it's because the story as front facing is 99% male. The important historical events are all male vs male, and they do not bend easily to retcons. The current Vigilis storyline is centered around Abaddon vs Calgar. The previous storyline was Guilliman vs Mortarion. Because half the time the story is about Shiny Marines vs Spiky Marines, and the other half it's about Marines vs Something.

So 50% of the time, 50% of the sides have 50% women. Which is why representation that is actually pretty decent, feels like 12.5%.

Is it possible for this to change? And will it? Well, GW seems to feel that fem-marines are not waters it's yet worth it to step into. (And who can blame them, since it's the most divisive subject in the fanbase). And Marines remain their headliner for the simple reason that they sell really, really, well to 14 year olds. So 40k's driving narrative will likely remain as "Brother Against Brother" for the forseeable future.

Nevertheless, many people say they feel female representation is too low. What kind of recommendations can those people make that might lead to a state where the front-facing representation feels better? Simple: ask for less Marines. Less Marine stories, less Marine models, less Marine campaigns. When was the last time there was a campaign that had no Marines in it at all? I can't remember one. Maybe this would be asking for too much, the sky on a plate. But if no-one asks for it, no-one will possibly ever get it.

There is a second option of course: come to an understanding of it. It looks like Warhammer 40k is almost inseparable from the "Brother Against Brother" narrative of men in massive pauldrons punching each other in the face while suppressing their emotions. And that's ok! Not all media has to be all-things-to-all-men. If you're getting tired of watching emotionly-supressed men punch each other, perhaps you're just tired of 40k in general?

[lord_khaine]

Breaking news.
It turns out Space Wolves are kinda messed up

[Cheesegear]

I think my next short story will be called Hope Springs.
It will be about a a few civilians swept up in planet overrun by cults and technoheresy, the main characters will not be cultists themselves, but they will be in a City/Hive where the Cult is. Space Marines will arrive to Pacify the planet.

It will not be pretty.

'Member that time in Shield of Baal when Magda Grace was shooting Cultists in the head until she found someone in charge willing to repent? It'll be like that. Except from the Cultists/Civilians' point of view.

[LansXero]

Is transhuman dread still a thing? I mean, sure, the IG is probably used to facing chaos and renegade marines by now, but despite all the memes about 'tshirts and flashlights', Imperial Guard regiments are above and beyond regular PDFs and common soldiery. So, do cultists and other such rabble still freeze when supermen come crashing down and slaughtering wholesale? Or that went out of style in the last 10000 years?