shhh! The fighters are underground!

[jjpickar]

First let me intone a few words of dedication: (chants badly) Oh LogicNinja, thy guide to wizards has proven once and for all, without a doubt in fact, that wizards pwn, win, mangle, break,and just all around rock. And to the rest of Giant in the Playground forum I thank thee for removing the scales from eyes. Now I know the that fighter are made of great suckitude, especially past level 5, that monks are worse and CWar samurai are not to be spoken of. From now on only clerics, druids, and the mighty wizards will deserve any serious consideration though the ToB will suffice if I must melee even if it is infinitely inferior in all ways to spellcasting.















All right, I think that will do for sarcasm. Sorry for the inconvenience. Here is the real subject:

Spoiler

Show

Now that fighter lovers must go underground I thought it best for a little diversion. Hence the intro. What I really want know is how you have enjoyed using the fighter class? What you like for high level builds for fighters (monkey grip is allowed here)? Most of all ,feel free to talk about how awesome fighters are. I want to hear about your 15th level straight fighter that rides a half celestial winged hippo that uses monkey grip to wield a flaming/frosting double sword and leaps at foe screaming his fierce battle cry: "I've got feats!"

[Talya]

I love fighter-types, but I don't use pure fighter. There just aren't enough feats to make it worthwhile to take a fighter to 20. I tend to use 2-4 levels of fighter on the way to a martial PrC...mixed with whatever else suits my fancy at the time.

[Thomix]

I really loved my Halfling fighter in full-plate with a goliath greathammer...just funny to play.

[Zincorium]

....

This is not going to end well. But to put my two cents in, feats are nice, but I just can't stand having feats as my only class features ever. I want something that can't be taken by any other schmuck out there who's gained a level divisible by three. And specialization just ain't doin' it for me.

And since I've been a rules-inaccuracy-seeking-missile so far today (Probably at the loss of any goodwill I have left in the GitP community) , I figure I might as well point out that you can't use monkey grip with a double weapon.

[jjpickar]

Halfling fighters, so small yet so cool. I personally like gnomish fighters. They ride their dire badgers into battle swinging their wacky hooked hammers tripping their foes all the way.

[Crow]

Sometimes there's more to playing a character than being the baddest mofo at the table.

Sometimes you want to play the hard-nosed fighter who wins through grit and determination. Sure a wizard could do it faster, but sometimes there ain't no wizard around and somebody's still gotta do it.

[DraPrime]

The only fun I EVER had with fighters always ended with me taking a PrC. Still that large amount of hitpoints helps if your wizard rolls a natural 1 on her will save against being dominated and casts meteor swarm on you (it happened).

[jjpickar]

Well if y'all like prestige classes you're welcome to post about em'. I personally like the sound of the Dervish and Cavalier.

[Talya]

Dervish

My favorite.


Also: Champion of Corellon Larethian is a lot of fun with a dextrous fighter in mithral fullplate using an Elven Courtblade.

[Leicontis]

Anyone who says there aren't enough feats to be worth lvl 20 fighter hasn't tried making my ultimate staff-wielding AC beast...

[jjpickar]

dextrous fighter

Really good 'cause you can melee and range your enemies into oblivion.


Edit:Staff wielding A.C. Beast? Please expatiate on this as I am all ears (not really as that would be kinda freaky ).

[Kantolin]

Sometimes you want to play the hard-nosed fighter who wins through grit and determination. Sure a wizard could do it faster, but sometimes there ain't no wizard around and somebody's still gotta do it.

The problem stated wasn't 'I don't want to be a hard-nosed fighter'. It was more along the lines that high level fighters, especially when buried in core, don't really have a whole lot of interesting points to them besides Specialization, which is itself not very interesting.

Fighter 20s make conceptually good generalists, but not a lot else. My master swordsman who is a fighter 20 likely has the same overall talent with a sword as the Paladin 20 and the Barbarian 20.

Anyway, I'm a big fan of fighters myself, I believe mostly due to fighters being my first class played. Grab a Guisarme and a Ranseur, go for battlefield control. Or, equally as fun, go with a whip.

[Neon Knight]

Sometimes you want to play the hard-nosed fighter who wins through grit and determination. Sure a wizard could do it faster, but sometimes there ain't no wizard around and somebody's still gotta do it.

A slight correction is in order. Assuming we are referring to high level DnD, the corrected phrase runs as follows:

Sometimes you want to play the hard-nosed fighter who loses through grit and determination. Sure a wizard could actually win with little to no effort, but sometimes there ain't no wizard around and then we're screwed.

[Kantolin]

Sometimes you want to play the hard-nosed fighter who loses through grit and determination. Sure a wizard could actually win with little to no effort, but sometimes there ain't no wizard around and then we're screwed.

Hey, that's not fair. There could be a Cleric, Druid, or Sorceror around. ^_^

Or depending on what's going on, a Bard.

[dyslexicfaser]

Just wondering, can you Sunder things with a whip? Because that would be neat.

*lashes somebody from across the room...*

*causing their weapon to disintegrate*

I need a whip.

[martyboy74]

Hey, that's not fair. There could be a Cleric, Druid, or Sorceror around. ^_^

Or depending on what's going on, a Bard.

True (except for the part about the bard). So I guess that this is the phrase:

Sometimes you want to play the hard-nosed fighter who loses through grit and determination. Sure a full spellcaster could actually win with little to no effort, but sometimes there ain't no full spellcaster around and then we're screwed.

[jjpickar]

I thought I placated the fighter mockers with the words of praise for the LogicNinja guide . Alas, we fighter lovers have been found out. I hope I'm not being too rude to suggest if you don't have anything nice to say about fighters that you please say it on another thread.

On topic however, I am definitely curious about Leicontis's staff fighter...

[Neon Knight]

Fighters do provide feats, and lots of em, which can make it useful for dips.

But, yeah, Warblade is pretty much everything the Fighter should have been.

[martyboy74]

I thought I placated the fighter mockers with the words of praise for the LogicNinja guide . Alas, we fighter lovers have been found out. I hope I'm not being too rude to suggest if you don't have anything nice to say about fighters that you please say it on another thread.

On topic however, I am definitely curious about Leicontis's staff fighter...

Oh, it's just good-natured ribbing. I actually usually end up playing the fighter in my group. I prefer to do all of my my optimization beforehand, and just go nuts with the sword during play, no matter how much more effective the spellcasters may be.

[Drider]

True (except for the part about the bard). So I guess that this is the phrase:

Sometimes you want to play the hard-nosed fighter who loses through grit and determination. Sure a full spellcaster could actually win with little to no effort, but sometimes there ain't no full spellcaster around and then we're screwed.

or rogue with UMD

[Douglas]

Hey, I've seen a pure fighter build that can consistently kill a Balor in one round with a bow. Of course, a cleric version of the same build could probably do it even more consistently and possibly with more attacks left over, and still have his spellcasting too, but even the fighter version is far from useless.

[Reel On, Love]

What's with the "boo-hoo, I'm oppressed because I like fighters" stuff? C'mon, nobody's going to force you to play anything. If you've read Teh Guide Zomg!111, you know it doesn't say anything about Don't Play Fighters.

Playing a weaker class does not make you a better roleplayer, or cooler in any way, shape or form. You are not an oppressed minority. You are not a rebel. You are not your goddamn khakis.

That said, the core-only fighter is a travesty; with all the splatbooks and the right cheesy feats, a Fighter can actually be pretty effective. You're going to have to make some hard choices about equipment at any given level, though.

Edit: no, that build could one-round a Balor assuming Manyshot works from more than 30' away, assuming one-shot items, consumables, friendly casters for a ring of Spell Storing, and a balor that's just sitting there, in the middle of a field, waiting for a fighter to sneak up on it from over 120' away.

[Crow]

True (except for the part about the bard). So I guess that this is the phrase:

Sometimes you want to play the hard-nosed fighter who loses through grit and determination. Sure a full spellcaster could actually win with little to no effort, but sometimes there ain't no full spellcaster around and then we're screwed.

Funny as it is, that's just a terrible attitude to have. ;)

The hard-nosed fighter would never admit to being screwed, even if it was true.

Anyhow, that attitude is just a reflection of the game, not neccessarily the people who play it. The game was shoddily designed in such a way as to make the fighter sub-par. It has nothing to do with overpowered wizards or druids, but more to do with having challenges that require those overpowered bastards. In trying to "balance" the game to make it "fun" for everyone, they had to introduce monsters and such that required the insane power of wizards to vanquish in order to challenge those classes. Once it requires it, what is the poor fighter to do?

I am not so pissed about wizards being cosmicly powerful...when you manipulate the fabric of the universe that happens. I am pissed that once you get into higher levels, monsters are designed in such a way that four fighters can't defeat a monster of appropriate CR.

Which nicely shows how the CR system is in on the plot to screw fighters. By assuming a party of Fighter, Cleric, Rogue, Wizard, and basing difficulty calculations on that, you in essence require those classes for the calculation to be correct. Even then, it has been shown that it is still never right. I have never run the "average" party. Always, we have lacked at least one "role", often two, and doubled or tripled up on another. Sometimes nobody wants to play one of those classes. How are you making the game fun for everybody by requiring them???

[Douglas]

Edit: no, that build could one-round a Balor assuming Manyshot works from more than 30' away, assuming one-shot items, consumables, friendly casters for a ring of Spell Storing, and a balor that's just sitting there, in the middle of a field, waiting for a fighter to sneak up on it from over 120' away.

I don't remember the build I'm thinking of using any of those things, and all it needs is a single round with the Balor in line of sight and longbow range. Hold on while I try to find it...

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You can take your Fighter. I'll take an equal level Warblade, at any level. We'll see who is left standing at the end of combat. And I'll be a straight melee combatant... just a better one than you can manage as a Fighter.

[Kantolin]

Hrm. I apologize.

An interesting fact about Fighters is due to the slightly-quirky way the skill system works.

Fighters have relatively few skill points, and few class skills. As such, nobody expects the fighter to have any particular skill for any particular situation - people will, for example, expect the Wizard to have Knowledge(arcana) and Spellcraft, and the Cleric to have Religion, and the bard pretty much must have perform.

But the Fighter's actually quite free to select whichever skills he wants, and will never be in a 'Wha? Your druid didn't take Knowledge(nature)?!' situation.

I abuse this to great glee. ^_^ My fighters, thus, tend to focus on having several crafts - the blacksmith is a fairly fun archetype to focus on. It also helps alleviate the silly 'fighters are dumb' jokes when you're a gemcutter, or a tailor.

Another interesting option is to go with a cross-class skill that the party lacks. For example, hardly anyone takes Knowledge(The Planes) in a campaign. If nobody in the party has it, the fighter can jump on it - even with half ranks and an int of 14 for Expertise, you'll still be able to roll a number on it, and it in no way reduces your overall efficiency. Gives you something entertaining to do overall.

Also - while the vast majority of them aren't, mechanically, worth your time - the quantity of feats a fighter gets makes exotic weapons actually options. If you're going with two-weapon fighting, spending a feat on the orc double axe may not be mechanically your best option, but you've got enough feats to be able to afford to squander one, especially if stuck in core where you'll max out the tree you're aiming for fairly swiftly.

As most other units are unlikely to spend time doing this, this becomes an effective tool to make your fighter stand out - at least somewhat.

Now, none of these are necessarily sound options mechanically - they're just fun or amusing things to do with your fighter.

As a general question: Has anyone ever used a tower shield? Only fighters (In core, anyway) get access to them, so that may be something else to be a particular party's fighter's schtick.

[NullAshton]

I've never played a straight fighter, though I did make a neat fighter/warblade. Used deep impact + power attack for full power attacks with no penalty to AC... fun.

[Reel On, Love]

I've never played a straight fighter, though I did make a neat fighter/warblade. Used deep impact + power attack for full power attacks with no penalty to AC... fun.

That's amusing, because you need to be psionic to take Deep Impact. Psychic Warrior would negate the need for a Wild Talent feat, would give you a few useful powers like Force Screen and Expansion, make taking Psionic Meditation easy (just replace Wild Talent) which would let you recover the focus as a move action and use it for Diamond Mind saving-throw maneuvers...

I'll throw up a reasonably optimized fighter build in a few hours.

[dyslexicfaser]

So much for a thread of fighter-love.

[Reel On, Love]

So much for a thread of fighter-love.

That would go a lot better without the implication that people who think fighters are weak and/or don't like them are some kind of horrific oppressor caste.