Nonmagical Merciful Weapons

[cupkeyk]

Without having to resort to a magical enhancement, is there a weapon that deals both lethal and non-lethal damage at the wielder's discretion, without having to get the -4 penalty? I can think of the bow, by shifting from normal to blunt arrows and (improved) unarmed strike?

The flavor text to marspulerule (sp) from the Planar Handbook would suggest that it had this ability, does it?

[Maryring]

There is a feat in the Book of Exalted Deeds that allow you to deal nonlethal damage with an attack instead of lethal damage. I don't know the name of the feat, but it is a general feat, available to everyone.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Saps do nonlethal damage by default. As do truncheons (essentially one-handed saps) from the Book of Exalted Deeds. Whips are nonlethal, although they're largely useless for damage.

As for stuff that can do either at no penalty...I think you're limited to your fists of fury and IAS, or variable-ammo weapons. And even on the latter, I'm not aware of official nonlethal nonmagical arrows off the top of my head.

Justicar (Complete Warrior) might have the ability to convert all damage to nonlethal, I'm not sure.

[DeathQuaker]

Saps do nonlethal damage by default. As do truncheons (essentially one-handed saps) from the Book of Exalted Deeds. Whips are nonlethal, although they're largely useless for damage.

I remember seeing rules for whip-daggers where whips are given sharp metal ends to do lethal damage.

Without magic, it would require manually changing it, but you could perhaps have a whip that you could attach a "dagger" end to it if you wanted.

The other thing would be to ask for a houserule that saps can do lethal damage if you choose. Heck, I imagine if you are beaten in the head with a blackjack long enough, it'd kill you.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Heck, I imagine if you are beaten in the head with a blackjack long enough, it'd kill you.

Indeed it would.

One of the scenes of Raymond Chandler's Farwell, My Lovely featured a poor fellow who met his demise that way.

[cupkeyk]

Indeed it would.

One of the scenes of Raymond Chandler's Farwell, My Lovely featured a poor fellow who met his demise that way.

well, once a guy is unconscious, you can take the -4 penalty and still automatically hit them, eventually killing them.

[Stormcrow]

Not quite the same thematically though. In the long run you can kill an unconcious person with just about anything! a Fistfull of feathers even.

[Chronos]

What's the drawback of nonlethal weapons? Once you get your enemies unconscious, you still have the option of Coup de Gracing them, if you need them dead. But you also still have the option of dragging them to the town jail, or interrogating them, or anything else you need them alive for.

[....]

In the adventure "Expedition to Castle Greyhawk" there is a side quest where the PCs can fight a team of monks in an arena. They aren't allowed to kill them, though, and so special leather covers are put over all weapons that render the damage non-lethal, remove all enchantments from affecting it, and incur no penalty.

After the fight the PCs have to return the covers, but it'd be easy to say a character who didn't want to kill people could find one somewhere.

[Dhavaer]

What's the drawback of nonlethal weapons? Once you get your enemies unconscious, you still have the option of Coup de Gracing them, if you need them dead. But you also still have the option of dragging them to the town jail, or interrogating them, or anything else you need them alive for.

Nonlethal heals faster and quite a lot of things are immune to it.

[Feralgeist]

just carry 2 weapons. they're not exactly expensive.

[Khanderas]

A sword with one side sharp, the other blunt ?
Sure you cant stab nonlethal damage so you problebly take -1 or -2 to either lethal or nonlethal (if you keep the point sharp or not) I guess.

And yes a bludgeon can kill people, but smacking someone in the face with a blunt sword will cause a broken nose, but I doubt it will kill someone in the first hit.

[earlblue]

A sword with one side sharp, the other blunt ?
Sure you cant stab nonlethal damage so you problebly take -1 or -2 to either lethal or nonlethal (if you keep the point sharp or not) I guess.

And yes a bludgeon can kill people, but smacking someone in the face with a blunt sword will cause a broken nose, but I doubt it will kill someone in the first hit.

No, I am pretty sure that if you hit someone with a blunt sword hard enough, you will still kill him/her.

It is not the surface of the weapon. It is the force behind it that determines whether it kills, or not.

If you drop a couple of hundred of feets into the sea, you might (and chances are) just get killed.

OBeQuiet UWannaBe

[Merlin the Tuna]

Justicar (Complete Warrior) might have the ability to convert all damage to nonlethal, I'm not sure.

Justicars gain it at level 1, and Bloodhounds (CAdv) gain the ability to do the same at level 2. As a side note, watch out if you're looking at these classes at the same time -- they're fairly similar, and each has an ability called "Bring 'em Back Alive," but they do different things.

[Khanderas]

No, I am pretty sure that if you hit someone with a blunt sword hard enough, you will still kill him/her.

It is not the surface of the weapon. It is the force behind it that determines whether it kills, or not.

If you drop a couple of hundred of feets into the sea, you might (and chances are) just get killed.

OBeQuiet UWannaBe

Fair points, but given enough force anything that deals subdual damage could kill, barring magic of some kind. A sap is generally a good way to take somone down without killing him. Hit someone hard enough with it and the result will be...not so merciful.

As long as you dont smack the target in the head with the blunt sword chances are the damage won't be the lethal kind. Or smack him in the face, I guess it counts as permanent damage to the nose, but not really lethal. With the lighter weight (presumably) compared to a club one side would "always" do subdual damage and one side always does lethal slashing damage. If said weapon got an enchant I see no reason it would not work for both sides. Basically you get a "flat of the sword" without having to adjust to hit with the flat of the sword, ergo little to no attack penalty.

[dr.cello]

The other thing would be to ask for a houserule that saps can do lethal damage if you choose. Heck, I imagine if you are beaten in the head with a blackjack long enough, it'd kill you.

Honestly? A blackjack is probably more lethal than a club. There's a reason they're classified as deadly weapons in most jurisdictions. Sacks full of lead shot hurt.

Saps do nonlethal damage by default. As do truncheons (essentially one-handed saps) from the Book of Exalted Deeds.

Saps are already one-handed. Or by one-handed to you mean 'not light'?

[Funkyodor]

Improved Unarmed Strike makes your fists lethal or non-lethal as you choose, but as for a non-magical weapon that does the same? I can't think of one.

[Zim]

There are precious few non-lethal combat options in D&D. As mentioned above, unarmed strikes default to non-lethal, saps and taking -4 to hit with a standard weapon are about it for Core.

If you want to incapacitate your opponents, you could consider tanglefoot bags and nets as options. Also, tripping and disarming attackers can remove them as a threat for a time. Grapple/pin is very useful if you build a character specifically for that purpose. Non-leathal poisons (Dex and Str damage or knockout) are an expensive and pretty unreliable way to go.

[Chronos]

Nonlethal heals faster and quite a lot of things are immune to it.

Eh, it heals faster, but still not so fast that an enemy is likely to get back up before the end of the battle (at which point you can tie him up, or coup de grace, or whatever). But I see your point about things immune to nonlethal, though... Undead, constructs, and plants, right?

[Zim]

But I see your point about things immune to nonlethal, though... Undead, constructs, and plants, right?

But nobody uses those in D&D, do they?

Nonlethal damage is useful at times, but the game is really geared towards doing harm to your fellow creature and taking its stuff.

(edit) hey! I just got promoted!

[Nero24200]

[quote]Fair points, but given enough force anything that deals subdual damage could kill, barring magic of some kind. A sap is generally a good way to take somone down without killing him. Hit someone hard enough with it and the result will be...not so merciful.
[quote]

Thats why I rule that even if you do non-lethal, you still roll to see if you score an instant-kill (Two 20's in a roll and a confirmed threat)

[Ikkitosen]

What's the drawback of nonlethal weapons? Once you get your enemies unconscious, you still have the option of Coup de Gracing them, if you need them dead. But you also still have the option of dragging them to the town jail, or interrogating them, or anything else you need them alive for.

Many characters are willing to gut an opponent that is actively trying to kill them. However, many will not stab an incapacitated creature.

[Fax Celestis]

Eh, it heals faster, but still not so fast that an enemy is likely to get back up before the end of the battle (at which point you can tie him up, or coup de grace, or whatever). But I see your point about things immune to nonlethal, though... Undead, constructs, and plants, right?

And anything with Fast Healing or Regeneration.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Saps are already one-handed. Or by one-handed to you mean 'not light'?

I meant not light, yes.

And after having my thoughts confirmed, and looking up the Justicar in Complete Warrior...the first level of the class grants you the ability to do nonlethal damage with all melee weapons and what is essentially "sneak attack, but nonlethal damage only." However, the class has supremely annoying prereqs, like Track, Skill Focus Gather Information, and five ranks in three skills that never appear on the same class skill list, to my knowledge, so it's probably not worth it.

[Tengu]

The already mentioned (by Maryring) feat from BoED seems to be a good idea if you want to deal nonlethal damage - however, it's out to your DM to allow it, seeing as BoED is 3.0.

[Indon]

And anything with Fast Healing or Regeneration.

I'm pretty sure fast healing treats lethal and nonlethal damage the same.

As for Regeneration, creatures who have regeneration generally convert lethal damage into nonlethal damage; I don't know anything about them being immune to nonlethal damage (they just _regenerate_ nonlethal damage).