A New Time of Troubles?

[my_evil_twin]

I got into D&D just before 3.5, so I'm a little out of my depth here, but didn't TSR publish adventures about a cosmic cataclysm to rationalize all of the rules changes that they implemented for 2nd ed.?

When I first heard of this I thought it was a silly idea. Now I'm running a campaign that, if I'm lucky, will still be kicking next July. I'm seriously considering an in-game cross-planar shakeup to mark the shift to 4th ed. What we've heard so far sounds pretty ripe for it: Asmodeus ascending to godhood, a collapse in the availability of magic items, and the entire world getting knocked back about 400 years technologically.

So is there anyone else planning on doing a transition like this? Are there any old DMs out there who ran the old module and would like to share how it worked out?

[Citizen Joe]

1st to 2nd edition was the Time of Troubles.

I think Vecna Lives! was the switch to 3.0.

There's also Die Vecna Die! but I'm not sure where that fits in.

I suspect they will introduce 4.0 with Vecna Reborn!

Vecna is an anagram of Vance... i.e. Jack Vance of the Vancian magic system. Memorize/forget system for spells. So Vecna is sort of an effigy of the magic system in DND.

[Indon]

Vecna is an anagram of Vance... i.e. Jack Vance of the Vancian magic system. Memorize/forget system for spells. So Vecna is sort of an effigy of the magic system in DND.

Vecna ascended to godhood in the 3.0 transition.

[C Harnryd]

I think Vecna Lives! was the switch to 3.0.

I think you mean 2.0. It was published a decade before 3.0.

[CASTLEMIKE]

FRE 1, 2 AND 3 Shadowdale, Tantras and Waterdeep by Ed Greenwood you were adventuring with Midnight before she inherited Mystra's portfolio. The PCs got to fight a few powered down gods and even got to speak with AO at the end.

The Apocalypse Stone TSR 11614 would work for transitioning between 3.5 and 4 with a little tweaking.

[Citizen Joe]

Yea, ok, Die Vecna Die was the last 2nd edition adventure with hints that the world was changing, i.e. 3rd edition.

EDIT: Looks like they already did Vecna Reborn. I think as a Ravenloft module. I switched to FR long before that so the modules were really just show pieces brought out by the DM as a threat.

[Citizen Joe]

Someone had mentioned in a 4E thread that they were going to yank Erinyes because they already have a female winged demon.

If Asmodeus does ascend, he may take the erinyes with him. That would change their fundamental nature.

[Zim]

Sounds like a load of rubbish IMO. A change in game mechanics should not drive the plot of a game world. That's one of the problems with system dependant campaign settings like FR; if the rules change, then the world comes crashing down too because some of the mechanics that certain things relied on don't exist or work the same anymore.

Can't they just change the rules and adjust the world accordingly without drawing attention to it. Make it a MIB "flashy thing" or Matrix rewrite change and then they could just say "why no, that's the way things always have been."

[Chaos Bringer]

"I felt a great disturbance, as if a great many rulebooks cried out and were suddenly silenced" Had to be said, I apologize

[MrNexx]

"I felt a great disturbance, as if a great many rulebooks cried out and were suddenly silenced" Had to be said, I apologize

Beat you to it by like a month.

[Renx]

Eh... 400 years back? So it's from the middle ages to ...the middle ages. Yay.

[Crazy_Uncle_Doug]

Someone had mentioned in a 4E thread that they were going to yank Erinyes because they already have a female winged demon.

If Asmodeus does ascend, he may take the erinyes with him. That would change their fundamental nature.

But ... but Erinyes are -devils-, not demons. Everyone knows that!

Personally, I think they'd yank them because no one can pronounce "Erinyes".

[CrazedGoblin]

i wasent even aware that there were plot changess to go with the rule sets until this thread haha

[psychoticbarber]

i wasent even aware that there were plot changess to go with the rule sets until this thread haha

Yeah, me neither .

[hamlet]

But ... but Erinyes are -devils-, not demons. Everyone knows that!

Personally, I think they'd yank them because no one can pronounce "Erinyes".

The Erinyes are being nixed and the Succubi are moving over to the Devil side to replace them along the lines with the new WOTC differentiation between devils and demons: "devils look human, demons don't."

[Telonius]

If Asmodeus does ascend, he may take the erinyes with him.

If I were Asmodeus, I certainly would.

[Crazy_Uncle_Doug]

The Erinyes are being nixed and the Succubi are moving over to the Devil side to replace them along the lines with the new WOTC differentiation between devils and demons: "devils look human, demons don't."

That's the official story. Personally, I think my theory makes more sense.

[Thinker]

The Erinyes are being nixed and the Succubi are moving over to the Devil side to replace them along the lines with the new WOTC differentiation between devils and demons: "devils look human, demons don't."

Would that really be so bad? That means its a step in the right direction as far as eliminating the ****ty alignment system. It may mean getting rid of the Blood War or just changing it so it is two factions of evil, not necessarily chaotic v lawful (which was always stupid anyway).

[Azerian Kelimon]

Actually, it'll likely remain as it has been, devils and demons brutally killing each other. As Planescape Torment, perhaps THE best game ever created for roleplaying would say:

"Baatezu, they wate more time on a single skirmish than most humans would on a whole campaign. Them Tanar'ri, they rely on their numbers. so the field be pretty even, lad."

[Crazy_Uncle_Doug]

Once again, I find another aspect of the game I've always appreciated, but understand that many dislike. I grew up with the alignment system, and it's never been so bad to me.

The Blood War I never got into. It seemed like a contrivance as to 'why these evil guys aren't in charge' thing.

Law vs. Chaos is always harder to conceive over Good vs. Evil. We have a somewhat better understanding of the latter. The former always seems to be too nebulous to get a grasp on.

[hamlet]

Would that really be so bad? That means its a step in the right direction as far as eliminating the ****ty alignment system. It may mean getting rid of the Blood War or just changing it so it is two factions of evil, not necessarily chaotic v lawful (which was always stupid anyway).

Yes, it would be "so bad." I like the way the planes and alignment are set up. There's really nothing wrong with them except players and DM's who don't understand them.

[Morty]

Yes, it would be "so bad." I like the way the planes and alignment are set up. There's really nothing wrong with them except players and DM's who don't understand them.

Alignments are fine as long as it's about planes and outsiders. It's just when it comes to common folk they screw up badly.

[Azerian Kelimon]

That's where the beauty of it is. If you can, buy or download planescape torment, since it has a beautiful plot, which gets you closer to it. If you wanna understand it in 2 words, here goes: LAW is more or less working with other people, and chaos is free will. Neutral is a purer version of whateva you're trying to play. NG is the most good of all, since it's not limted, and NE is the most evil, since it knows no bounds.


The blood war is the reason Evil ain't the rulz0rz in the outer plains, or everywhere, actually. Since there's more evil in the world, a sad but true fact, the good guys would have been overwhelmed. But the always hidden Yugoloths, the NE outsiders and the most evil of them all, inspired the rivalry between devils and demons, which was what saved the multiverse. And that's it. The war continues till today, and everyone tries to keep it going, till there's so little evil that the good guys can eradicate it once and for all.

[Thinker]

Yes, it would be "so bad." I like the way the planes and alignment are set up. There's really nothing wrong with them except players and DM's who don't understand them.

There are certainly things wrong with them. For outsiders it locks them into being mindlessly devoted to their alignments. In this case it becomes impossible for angels to fall or demons to follow a master. In the case of normal creatures, even as a description it fails because it is not descriptive enough; saying "Chaotic Evil Rogue" conjures an image of a callous murderer who is only out for himself when it could just be a selfish thief who robs from rich and poor alike. With how it stands now, alignment is meaningless. It doesn't describe anything except what spells affect creatures. The other problem with the alignment system is that it is from a purely objective view of what is good and what is evil, when it is not that clear cut.

I also do not appreciate the underhanded insult. If you're going to try to imply that I am dumb, just come out and say it.

[Krellen]

I like the way the planes and alignment are set up. There's really nothing wrong with them except players and DM's who don't understand them.

I understand them, I just don't like them. I find the Great Wheel rather stupid, really - as I do with the factionalising of gods and outsiders and everything else.

Lack of alignment means my players won't think it's weird when a succubus helps them, or a solar tries to take them down.

[Azerian Kelimon]

A selfish thief is actually NE, which is the alignment closer to utter selfishness.

Oh, and outsiders locked? just one thing to say: Erinyes, who were angels that fell from grace, and ended up as devils. Too much exposure to an abstract changes you.

[Crazy_Uncle_Doug]

Hehe. Alignment discussions take over another thread. Personally, I find antipathy towards alignment really falls in whether you've seen it as defining behavior or defined by behavior.

A lot of people see alignment as: "Because I am this, I do this."

I've taken the view: "Because I do this, I am this."

Secondly, I've seen it taken as absolutes. If alignment (any direction) is taken as a narrow path, rather than a broad way, it becomes a restriction rather than an aid.

Anyhow, that's my two cents.

[Telonius]

Removing the Erinyes? Fine and dandy. They always seemed kind of redundant to me, what with the succubus already filling the "sexy tempter/temptress evil thing" role.*

I honestly couldn't care less about the politics of hell, or the structure of the planes. That all falls under "fluff" to me. It's nice to have for the generic default setting, particularly if the DM doesn't want to put any work into describing the planar structure of his gaming world. If it matters to the DM, or to the particular gameworld (Eberron, I'm looking at you), planar structure and infernal/abyssal politics can change. If it doesn't matter to the particular gameworld, or to the DM, why worry about any changes made to the default?

I do care about the effect changes will have on alignment, but only as it relates to game mechanics. If a character casts a "Magic Circle against Chaos," it makes a difference whether or not the Succubus/Erinyes/whatever will be affected by it.

*EDIT: Though, sadly, it will remove one source of humor from OOTS (assuming we ever hear from Sabine again).

[Serenity]

But Erinyes aren't temptress seductresses! They're the freakin' Furies, unleashed to torment the wicked and drag them to Hell! Extraplanar Mikos, basically.

[hamlet]

I understand them, I just don't like them. I find the Great Wheel rather stupid, really - as I do with the factionalising of gods and outsiders and everything else.

Lack of alignment means my players won't think it's weird when a succubus helps them, or a solar tries to take them down.

My players would always think it's wierd when a succubus lends a hand, not because she's evil, but because it's her job to tempt souls into hell. In the Planescape campaign I'm running, the party frequently finds itself soliciting help from fiends and doing their best to keep angels in the blind (solar's ain't known for their stealth tactics).

It makes alignment a key issue and it's a very interesting and fun game. Most of the time, the Paladin of the group is doing his best to decide just how far he can go before he gets in trouble while the rest of the party does their best to insulate him from some of their dodgier choices (burning an Abyssal orphanage to the ground in order to avoid a major catastrophe for one).

Alignment is a tool, not a straitjacket. It gives you a baseline to work from.