OOTS #1130 - The Discussion Thread

[Wysper]

Can't wait for Hel's reaction. She can't even do vampires right
Though I guess the point here is that trying to corrupt a soul as pure as Durkon's was a losing proposition to begin with.

Rich's time-honoreed tradition of "fantasy is a tool for teaching us about our own humanity" continues. "Ye are who ye are on the NEXT day" indeed

It always bugged me a bit that Durkon's soul was trapped by the Vamp. Since he died an honorable death, shouldn't he have gone to Valahalla.

[hamishspence]

Vampires are one of those undead where the soul is specifically called out as trapped in the body (Complete Divine).

[Banderwock]

The same thing that every hero gets for being a puppet of the gods... JACK ****

Heh, I'm most of the way through reading The Curse of Chalion (Lois McMaster Bujold), that's kindof a theme. :)

Couple more predictions: Since Belkar was the first (and for a long time only) one who grasped that the vampire was not Durkon, he's going to be the one who realizes the vampire is Durkon now.

Durkon asks Belkar to stake him, Belkar realizes and refuses? Cue alignment change? Sounds like a solid maybe to me.

[Seto]

Possibly the negative energy spirit no longer exists - only Durkon does - though he still has a vampiric body.

That would be pretty amazing, given Xykon's fondness of his signature Energy Drain spell.

[2D8HP]

Hey all. I haven’t logged in here in possibly a decade, but I just wanted to say WOW. This last strip blew me away. Rich is an amazing writer.

Whoa.....

Your first post was in 2004?

Any chance of a female Ranger? I didn't see one in the avatar list. (Apologies if there is oneand I just didn't see her.) And is there a female half-orc? I didn't see one of those either

It's an honor ma'am.

Respectfully,

-2D8HP/James

[RabidEel]

My biggest question is...why now? Why not 30 minutes ago? Or an hour ago? Or yesterday? Or last week?

I don't see any specific reason why waiting until now offered some advantage.

Because Durkon was holding back memories until a chance was offered to use them to revert Greg.

Okay, so it takes a certain amount of time to get from "here's a painful memory" to "trick you into asking for all my memories". But why didn't Durkon start Step 1 as soon as he came up with his plan? If he thought he had a chance to take back control, why not do it back in 963, when he first got the idea, back before the Godsmoot? Why let Greg drive his body around doing dastardly deeds for even a minute more than necessary? That's what I don't understand.

Pendell may have looked at this and been reminded of Terry Pratchett, but what I thought of when I saw this line here was a very different fantasy author: this is quite similar to one of the strongest events that occurs at the climax of Brandon Sanderson's Oathbringer. One of the main characters has a very important epiphany along these same lines during a confrontation with a major bad guy. There's more to the similarities than that, but I wouldn't want to spoil it for those who haven't read it.

I was thinking of that scene, too! (And now I'm picturing Dalinar giving his speech in Durkon's accent...)

[endur]

Alas, poor Ponchella has passed away.

Her life expectancy was perhaps never very much, having been created shortly before the expected end of the world.

[hroþila]

Okay, so it takes a certain amount of time to get from "here's a painful memory" to "trick you into asking for all my memories". But why didn't Durkon start Step 1 as soon as he came up with his plan? If he thought he had a chance to take back control, why not do it back in 963, when he first got the idea, back before the Godsmoot? Why let Greg drive his body around doing dastardly deeds for even a minute more than necessary? That's what I don't understand.

Isn't that what he's been doing, actually? Feeding the vampire all the memories he needed him to see as soon as they were at all relevant to whatever question the vampire was asking at the time?

[Peelee]

I Demand that it does so!

Arrogantly,

The MunchKING, King of Munch, Emperor of So Asbena, Duke of StoVokor, etc. Etc.

I vote this for best non-sig sigline

[Arkain]

Really impressed, again. I particularly like how Belkar's development from before the fight continues here.

[Ramza00]

In greek language there is this word Pathos

Pathos means "to experience" and "to trigger emotions" but the most literal translation of Pathos into English is "suffering."

Pathos is one of the 3 forms of Aristotle Rhetoric (logos and ethos are the other two, reasoning and credibility / authority.)

Over a dozen English descend from pathos (this is not a comprehensive list) some of them include.

antipathy
apathy

pathetic
patience

patient
pathogen
pathology

empathy
sympathy
psychopathy

Many people in philosophy and history talk about Pathos. Edmund Burke (British Guy in the last 200 years famous for creating a specific form of conservationism / whig but he also writes other things including about aesthetics and how humans respond to emotion).

Burke states the sublime (more than the sums of the parts) is not the same as beauty and not the same as ugliness (other philosophers prior to Burke argue the sublime and beauty are the same or at least similar / synonyms.) No the sublime (more than the sum of the parts) is different from Beauty. So what is the Sublime if its not Beauty?

Burke argues the sublime is something different and it fills us both with fear and attraction. It fills us both with horror and also provides relief (stopping pain). Burke goes on that we take delight in the sublime. The sublime is not beautiful but it provides another form of energy that humans need and it can cause us to rise to higher states or be reduced to lower ones. Put another way the Sublime can wash away the worse Pathos (Suffering) form of Pain, but the Sublime can also enhance the pain for you chain multiple experiences into a sum of something greater and this can elevate yourself away from the pain or it can enhance the pain.

This post is long enough so I will not talk about other people who were roughly the same time as Burke who talked about the Sublime and Pathos (but the two I skipped over is Immanuel Kant and Friedrich Schiller).

-----

But let me say this this before I go, well done The Giant / Rich!

[Otomodachi]

Oh my heck this is so hecking beautiful. I am trying really hard not to openly cry at work right now. Thank you Giant.

[Zonkerbl]

Belkar didn't get hit by vampires. He got hit by Roy, and Roy doesn't level drain.

Oh yeah, duh!

[2D8HP]

Ten gold says there will be no cutting away until the Order is no longer in immediate danger.

Cindy/Ponchula has been decapitated, Greg/Durkula now has Durkon's personality, and the other Dwarf vampire ran away.

I'd think the Order was out of danger.....

....except maybe for the still swirly-eyed Hilgya?

Welp, that's it.

My prediction was correct, this was the most obvious, hackneyed, and an ass-pull of storytelling. If I, as a DM, ever did something like this to my PCs, they would call me out on this cliched BS.

I am no longer invested in the comic and no longer care what happens to the characters. I want to see how the story ends - too bad there's going to be another thousand strips before we come to what will be a probably unsatisfying conclusion.

Well I found it very impressive.

I see you liked #504 better:

Awesome comic, awesome eye effect, and I really don't see why it would be a problem (or go against Vs character) if he became a Raistlin-type.

In fact, come to think of it, he'd be worse, because V starts off on the side of good.

Puzzled,

2D8HP

[Peelee]

Well I found it very impressive.

Eh, probably because you clearly haven't read the multitude of vampire works where the inner spirit shines such a bright light that it turns the vampiric spirit into the inner spirit?

Because man, there are bookshelves just lined with those stories. Such an obvious, overused cliché, I say!

[batiushkov]

I really liked this strip.

I get the impression that it's been planned for a long time (I'm sure it has), but it doesn't suffer from "overwritten syndrome" where it's so prepared it's been mummified.

As to whether Durkon's defeat of the vampire spirit is or is not "original" - the whole of OOTS uses story elements that have appeared in human culture and in fantasy fiction before. For example, people out to save the world.

I've been here since before strip 200, so....13-14 years, a good portion of my life. Not every single section of OOTS has thrilled me to the core, but overall, I love the story.

[BrotherMirtillo]

Unlurking to say how staggeringly awe-striking this comic proved to be. Seriously, that whole-life flood gave me vertigo. Count this as yet another cheer for so many breathtaking elements in this story.

The astonishment isn't just from the flood of personal memories or the combat turnaround (although those certainly have major roles). It's the idea that Durkon overwhelmed the vampire via his own introspectiveness, his history, his life lessons -- i.e. his wisdom (lowercase w, and proud of it.) It feels like the emotional equivalent of Roy using Knowledge (architecture and engineering) to drop a colosseum on Thog's head. The vampire never understood how memories could connect one life moment to another. Now, he gets all the connections at once -- and it buries him.

Ever since Grubwiggler analyzed (and abandoned) his experiment with Crystal, I'd wondered if Durkon's feelings would be a force that the vampire would rather not have. But I was thinking at the old rate of a memory here and there with the occasional epiphany. I'd wondered if one properly-heartfelt memory could crack/thaw the vampire's heart. The doozy memory was a start... but thousands upon thousands of memories equaled a whiplash-inducing level of overwhelm. (Durkon even asked permission before adding them. That's a way to be Lawful Good like a boss.) It just works on every level that overpoweringly abundant honesty would be the winning strategy that a champion of "selflessness" would devise.

I don't know exactly how gone the vampire is... probably not 100%. I look forward to seeing how much. But whatever happens next, it's guaranteed to not be anything the vampire planned to happen. I'll gladly take that.

And as for those beautiful memories, my top 5 favorites for adorableness and overall charm are the snowball fight, Durkon giving two cousins a piggy-back ride, him and his drinking buddy Logann, him finally getting to officiate Hoskin's wedding, and him failing to play saxophone. (Honorable mention for variety = everything else in the snowball fight column)

[grandpheonix]

Couldn't Durkula just spon cast cure spells?

[RabidEel]

Isn't that what he's been doing, actually? Feeding the vampire all the memories he needed him to see as soon as they were at all relevant to whatever question the vampire was asking at the time?

But he's not just waiting for Greg to ask, he's actively supplying a memory that he thinks will prompt the question. So if showing Sigdi's Worst Day is his best shot at getting Greg to invite him in- why didn't he do it before now?
It's possible that when he came up with the plan in 963, he didn't have any specifics beyond "a really hard-core memory might unnerve Greg, don't know which memory that might be". It's possible he doesn't have the details until they get to the dwarven lands. But certainly by shortly before the battle Durkon has his plan in place. And his muttered asides indicate that he's deliberately waiting until the physical fighting starts to begin his mental fight. But I'm not too sure why he thinks the battle with the Order will help his chances with pulling one over Greg.

[Dr.Zero]

Well, I hoped more in a trick played with the "he can't connect the dots" using the sentence about Hilgya instead of the "sensory overload".
And, in all honesty, I don't like the idea that an evil spirit can become good whatever you tell it (because he has become good now, right?) for the reasons I explained in the other thread.
ANYWAY... it was nicely narrated. So much that it almost seems acceptable, now.

[BigLord]

After this page, and after many years of lurking (and most recently, commenting on the subreddit), I had to come here to directly address the Giant. Rich, man, you rock. I just wanted to add this, because this week has been amazing. All because of these few pages you've uploaded.

Keep it up! My mind I racing with the possibilities of wtf is going to happen next and I love it!

[Delta]

I feel almost bad about writing this, and probably someone else has uttered something similar but I haven't had the time to read through everything in this thread, but after the first "WHOA", I had some second thoughts that left me with a more mixed opinion.

If having all the hosts memories turns the vampire into the host, then... I don't know, shouldn't this be something Hel and her vampires know? Because that's what they do, isn't it? Greg pretty much told it straight, they get all the memories out of the host and then let it fade away in the background afterwards, so... why is this such a big twist? I don't quite get what makes Durkon so special in this moment that he can "turn" the vampire through his memories and emotions, when digging those up and absorbing them is exactly what Greg and every other vampire has been doing all the time? Just because he supplies them all at once?

Maybe I'm missing something here about the big picture, maybe I misunderstand the metaphysics of vampirism in Stickyverse, but after the feeling of being blown away wore off, my second thought was "Wait, why did this work the way it did?" and I just don't really get it right now.

...and that's the moment you realize there's already a whole thread about this question, lol I should really look around more before I post.

[Dragonus45]

So if I understand the mechanics of what happened here correctly.

The vampire spirit functions by taking the lowest low points of the relevant persons memory and that is what informs its worldview and actions. This may also be why all vampires are evil by default in D&D terms.

Over time they take the most relevant memories from the host spirit but either do not take them all, or do so over a long enough period of time that they aren’t really effected by them in a grand way. What’s 50 years of memories worth compared to 200 extra years of living as ones own being like Malal did.

Durkon just tricked the Vampire Spirit into letting him slam him with literally every memory in his head, since the Vampire Spirit has only been a distinct entity for a few days which for a dwarf is a very short period of time this has overloaded the Vampire Spirit as a distinct entity.


Does that all sound about right?

[Paladin's Pride]

"Here is joy that cannot be shaken. Our light can swallow up your darkness: but your darkness cannot now infect our light."
~C.S. Lewis "The Great Divorce"

[Ruck]

So if I understand the mechanics of what happened here correctly.

The vampire spirit functions by taking the lowest low points of the relevant persons memory and that is what informs its worldview and actions. This may also be why all vampires are evil by default in D&D terms.

Over time they take the most relevant memories from the host spirit but either do not take them all, or do so over a long enough period of time that they aren’t really effected by them in a grand way. What’s 50 years of memories worth compared to 200 extra years of living as ones own being like Malal did.

Durkon just tricked the Vampire Spirit into letting him slam him with literally every memory in his head, since the Vampire Spirit has only been a distinct entity for a few days which for a dwarf is a very short period of time this has overloaded the Vampire Spirit as a distinct entity.


Does that all sound about right?

Sounds roughly right to me, and I don't know the specifics enough to say where it could be more precise.

[Fincher]

So if I understand the mechanics of what happened here correctly.

The vampire spirit functions by taking the lowest low points of the relevant persons memory and that is what informs its worldview and actions. This may also be why all vampires are evil by default in D&D terms.

Over time they take the most relevant memories from the host spirit but either do not take them all, or do so over a long enough period of time that they aren’t really effected by them in a grand way. What’s 50 years of memories worth compared to 200 extra years of living as ones own being like Malal did.

Durkon just tricked the Vampire Spirit into letting him slam him with literally every memory in his head, since the Vampire Spirit has only been a distinct entity for a few days which for a dwarf is a very short period of time this has overloaded the Vampire Spirit as a distinct entity.


Does that all sound about right?

The problem is that it's been demonstrated that Durkon can show Durkula memories when he wants. So once he knew that memories affect his behavior, he could have just shown him memories of Durkon caring about and helping people basically non-stop.

[Stabbey]

So if I understand the mechanics of what happened here correctly.

The vampire spirit functions by taking the lowest low points of the relevant persons memory and that is what informs its worldview and actions. This may also be why all vampires are evil by default in D&D terms.

Over time they take the most relevant memories from the host spirit but either do not take them all, or do so over a long enough period of time that they aren’t really effected by them in a grand way. What’s 50 years of memories worth compared to 200 extra years of living as ones own being like Malal did.

Durkon just tricked the Vampire Spirit into letting him slam him with literally every memory in his head, since the Vampire Spirit has only been a distinct entity for a few days which for a dwarf is a very short period of time this has overloaded the Vampire Spirit as a distinct entity.


Does that all sound about right?

That's how I see it. It seems clear to me that the vampire spirit is gone. Completely overwritten by Durkon.

Now unless it's possible for Hilgya to pass OUT of the Anti-Life shell, which it probably is not, it might be tricky to get the rest of the order up before Belkar stakes Durkon. Greg did fool the order for a long time pretending to be Durkon, Belkar is unlikely to just believe Durkon is really back like that - remember, none of the order saw the internal struggle.

The problem is that it's been demonstrated that Durkon can show Durkula memories when he wants. So once he knew that memories affect his behavior, he could have just shown him memories of Durkon caring about and helping people basically non-stop.

It also seems likely that Greg can choose to NOT see memories if he doesn't want to. That is why Durkon had to bargain with Greg to show him "one last memory". If Durkon could force Greg into watching one, that deal makes no sense.

[Delta]

Does that all sound about right?

I guess that's what it's trying to sell it as, but I'm having a hard time buying it because Durkon's speech, as awesome as it is, kind of applies to everyone, doesn't it? The vast majority of people somehow get over their "worst day", they manage to take that pain, that fear, that negative emotion, put it aside or even try to take something positive from it. That isn't something Durkon just invented, and I feel a being like Stickyverse vampires should be well aware of it.

I'm not saying every vampire should be good, but what Durkon just pulled, I feel like if all vampires work that way, it should be a thing that happens often enough that Hel and her minions should be aware of it and guard against.

It's like someone using a touch attack against a massively armored opponent. I'm not saying it's not a valid attack, but it's not something that would make your jaw drop and say "Wow! He could never have seen that coming, no wonder he was completely overwhelmed by that!", it's maybe not the best comparison but it's the first that I could think of, I just feel like something was sold as a massive twist and reveal that, when thinking about it, shouldn't be so surprising to a Stickyverse vampire as we've seen it.

[Paladin's Pride]

I feel almost bad about writing this, and probably someone else has uttered something similar but I haven't had the time to read through everything in this thread, but after the first "WHOA", I had some second thoughts that left me with a more mixed opinion.

If having all the hosts memories turns the vampire into the host, then... I don't know, shouldn't this be something Hel and her vampires know? Because that's what they do, isn't it? Greg pretty much told it straight, they get all the memories out of the host and then let it fade away in the background afterwards, so... why is this such a big twist? I don't quite get what makes Durkon so special in this moment that he can "turn" the vampire through his memories and emotions, when digging those up and absorbing them is exactly what Greg and every other vampire has been doing all the time? Just because he supplies them all at once?

Maybe I'm missing something here about the big picture, maybe I misunderstand the metaphysics of vampirism in Stickyverse, but after the feeling of being blown away wore off, my second thought was "Wait, why did this work the way it did?" and I just don't really get it right now.

...and that's the moment you realize there's already a whole thread about this question, lol I should really look around more before I post.

It's quite possible that this is the first time it has ever happened. Certainly we have no indication this is a common occurrence. Durkon is a rare and formidable spirit, afterall. Moreover, I think it is probably the nature of evil to misunderstand and underestimate good. Evil understands strength when it is aggressive, egocentric, and forceful. The knowledge that good is able to overwhelm and overcome evil from a seeming position of helplessness if something that creatures of pure evil would do everything in their power to not think about even if they could comprehend it.

[ti'esar]

I'm not going to even bother to speculate on what exactly happens with Durkon now, and instead just say that Belkar was really cool in this one.