OOTS #1130 - The Discussion Thread

[crayzz]

Well, that was an exceptionally great few pages.

Up until the last panel.

I'm sorry to say but... it kinda ruins the whole thing for me.

I can't buy the vampire spirit and Durkon are the same person. Maybe the vampire was Durkon at his worse day at the start, but they've "lived" different experiences. Durkon has spent the last weeks/days imprisoned in his own body, and the vampire has spent that time going around, serving as jailer for Durkon, manipulating people, killing them, worshiping Hel, and the like.

Different perspectives, different experiences.

An evil spirit who's unable to grow being paralyzed by not understanding an act of pure selflessness which was fundamental in shaping who the person they're based on is? That's great. Pretty nice take on the concept, and done magnificent well.

The evil spirit becoming the person because they've absorbed the memories of said person? I can't get behind that. Especially because we were told before that the mental space in which the host and the parasite spirit discuss moves much faster than the outside time (if the vampire was unable to get the epiphany, it'd justify why its paralyzed in real time, while here the vampire do get the epiphany), and because Malack was pretty clear he was a different being for his original host even after absorbing all the memories (granted, it could have been only his perception of the issue, but all the other vampires who talked of the issue before seemed to agree).


Also, it kind of runs into the same problems that Harry Potter did with how it portrayed Lily's sacrifice. To explain myself: how come so few people know that a wiazrd/witch sacrificing themselves for someone else due to love grants protection? Sure, Lily Potter did a selfless sacrifice, but *a lot* of people in the world and in history have done that kind of things for the sake of their children or other beloved. Yet it's portrayed as if Harry is the only one in Magic England (or even the Magic World) who had someone sacrifice themselves like that, up until the last book where Harry's sacrifice protects one whole side of a battle, to the point most people don't know it's even possible and even the scholars regularly forget it's possible.

Here, it's kinda the same problem. Did no good person who had their identity shaped by a great tragedy which nevertheless pushed them to do good thing get turned into a vampire before? Is "getting talked into an existential crisis by the host" not among the main things a vampire should fear, hubris or not? Is the goddess of Death and Undead unaware that if a vampire absorb both the positive and the negative memories they become the person they're parasiting?

Again, this is only my opinion. Everything was incredible until that last panel. And I'm left puzzled.

I figured they weren't literally 100% the same, just that having so much of the same memories and experiences means they're effectively the same: Durkon but a vampire ("no more evil than Belkar I'd wager").

And this isnt strictly just a case of a random evil spirit absorbing memories and experiences becoming the person they've invaded: Hel designed Greg specifically to fit into Durkon. It makes sense that Greg is particularly vulnerable to influences from Durkon's positive memories, since he was designed from the get go to be particularly motivated by his negative ones.

EDIT: RE Malack

Malack spent hundreds of years as a vampire. He had lots of time to develop independently from his host. He might not have made the same argument if it had only been a fee weeks.

[FlawedParadigm]

This isn't a web comic.

We need a new word for it.

You don't see there is an update to a "web comic" on your phone, then decide NOT to read it because you want to read it in full-size on your laptop. THEN decide to wait again because you want to buy a special lunch that day to read it over.

This is something else entirely. Thank you Rich!

Webnovel??

[Unoriginal]

So who else besides me is looking through the time-capsule of Durkon's memories for anything important that might be hiding there?

I would say that every single one is important.

[Banderwock]

BOOM. Headshot. /comic

This was excellent.

[Ryeka]

Absolutely amazing. It was a slow burn but hell, was the payoff worth it.

It's amazing how you developed your run-of -the-mill stereotypical dwarf character into one with so much depth. I used to think Durkon was as bland as cardboard but now he's one of my favourite characters.

Great work, Giant!

[Ironsmith]

Okay, so the Giant's had a bit of a habit of making us go "holy ****" with a given comic, and then somehow making **** holier in the next comic. This is freaking awesome.

Also, props to whoever it was that predicted this was gonna be how Durkon finally makes peace with Greg. Granted, it seems less like "forms bond of cooperation" and more like "complete personality override", but that's pretty darn close to what happened.

[Mennhabar]

Another long time reader and forum lurker finally logging in just to say...

Well done, mr. Burlew! You never cease to amaze me.

[Slank]

I can't buy the vampire spirit and Durkon are the same person. Maybe the vampire was Durkon at his worse day at the start, but they've "lived" different experiences. Durkon has spent the last weeks/days imprisoned in his own body, and the vampire has spent that time going around, serving as jailer for Durkon, manipulating people, killing them, worshiping Hel, and the like.

I think this has more to do with Durkon's monologue about who you are after the worst day of your life. Arguably, the worst day of his life was his exile UNTIL he died and was turned into a vampire. From that point forward, he was dealing with the repercussions of the new worst day of his life and deciding that he would make something better of it and that meant he would not be subjugated in his own mind anymore. I won't pretend to know anything about vampires or D&D rules anymore but I imagine he figured sacrificing a little of himself to become this other thing was better than being nothing at all.

I liked how it resolved. Not looking forward to Durkon dying at the hands of Hilgya (sp?) shortly after such a huge victory :(

[PlaguetheRoamer]

It really comes down to a combination of things. How long he took to review the memories. If actually reviewed all of them, or let a few slide here and there. The original Malack's alignment. How old Malack was when he became a vampire. If that transformation was willing in any way, or accidental. How much Malack the vampire grew as a person through his own experiences over the two centuries that he preserved himself for (which, at this time at least, makes him more successful than Xykon himself in the preservation department). Whatever his circumstances, Malack had ample time to become his own person, epiphany or no.

Didn't Malack say he had smothered the original Host body's soul? The Lizard Shaman inside Malack must have given up on (un)life long before he met Durkon. Whereas Durkon's soul is very much still alive and kicking.

[zinycor]

Well, that was an exceptionally great few pages.

Up until the last panel.

I'm sorry to say but... it kinda ruins the whole thing for me.

I can't buy the vampire spirit and Durkon are the same person. Maybe the vampire was Durkon at his worse day at the start, but they've "lived" different experiences. Durkon has spent the last weeks/days imprisoned in his own body, and the vampire has spent that time going around, serving as jailer for Durkon, manipulating people, killing them, worshiping Hel, and the like.

Different perspectives, different experiences.

An evil spirit who's unable to grow being paralyzed by not understanding an act of pure selflessness which was fundamental in shaping who the person they're based on is? That's great. Pretty nice take on the concept, and done magnificent well.

The evil spirit becoming the person because they've absorbed the memories of said person? I can't get behind that. Especially because we were told before that the mental space in which the host and the parasite spirit discuss moves much faster than the outside time (if the vampire was unable to get the epiphany, it'd justify why its paralyzed in real time, while here the vampire do get the epiphany), and because Malack was pretty clear he was a different being for his original host even after absorbing all the memories (granted, it could have been only his perception of the issue, but all the other vampires who talked of the issue before seemed to agree).

Also, it kind of runs into the same problems that Harry Potter did with how it portrayed Lily's sacrifice. To explain myself: how come so few people know that a wiazrd/witch sacrificing themselves for someone else due to love grants protection? Sure, Lily Potter did a selfless sacrifice, but *a lot* of people in the world and in history have done that kind of things for the sake of their children or other beloved. Yet it's portrayed as if Harry is the only one in Magic England (or even the Magic World) who had someone sacrifice themselves like that, up until the last book where Harry's sacrifice protects one whole side of a battle, to the point most people don't know it's even possible and even the scholars regularly forget it's possible.

Here, it's kinda the same problem. Did no good person who had their identity shaped by a great tragedy which nevertheless pushed them to do good thing get turned into a vampire before? Is "getting talked into an existential crisis by the host" not among the main things a vampire should fear, hubris or not? Is the goddess of Death and Undead unaware that if a vampire absorb both the positive and the negative memories they become the person they're parasiting?

Again, this is only my opinion. Everything was incredible until that last panel. And I'm left puzzled.

My guess is that normally by the point that a vampire has absorbed all of the hosts memories the vampire has lived enough time that his own experiences (which could be years or centuries worth of experiences) outclass whatever memories the host has.

This was not the case for Greg, He has only existed for a very limited time, essentially he lacks his own way of seeing he world, and up until this point relies on his view of Durkon's life to give his own life meaning. Therefore, the transformation can take place because of Greg lack of maturity.

So, in the end, Greg absorbed Durkon's memory way too soon, if Malack or any other older vampire wold have been there to guide him and advise him to go slower with the memory abosorbing the transformation would not have happened.

[Kish]

The evil spirit becoming the person because they've absorbed the memories of said person? I can't get behind that. Especially because we were told before that the mental space in which the host and the parasite spirit discuss moves much faster than the outside time (if the vampire was unable to get the epiphany, it'd justify why its paralyzed in real time, while here the vampire do get the epiphany), and because Malack was pretty clear he was a different being for his original host even after absorbing all the memories

Was he? He talked about his mortal host's brothers as his brothers and spoke of Durkon as if he expected the Durkon-vampire to go back to being the dwarf who had been his friend.

(granted, it could have been only his perception of the issue, but all the other vampires who talked of the issue before seemed to agree).

All the other vampires created by Greg, even younger than him, with even less understanding of how vampire memory absorption works?

[Merellis]

Oh.

Belkar is Greg.

How the hel did I not see that till now?

[Rrmcklin]

I liked how it resolved. Not looking forward to Durkon dying at the hands of Hilgya (sp?) shortly after such a huge victory :(

That could happen; it'd be pretty tragic and all. But it would also be pretty pointless, so, yeah I'm cautiously going to say that isn't going to immediately happen.

[Crisis21]

And thus Rich answers the question of what happens when Evil that cannot comprehend Good is forced to.

[PlaguetheRoamer]

So who else besides me is looking through the time-capsule of Durkon's memories for anything important that might be hiding there?

Way ahead of you.

Durkon's memories are:
947,958,962,963,983,991,1086,1087,1088,1089,1126,1 127,1128,1129, and of course 1130

[2.5 cats]

Regarding Durkon vs. Malack, it has to be vanishingly-rare for someone's "worst day/hole in their soul" to be caused by pure, unselfish goodness. So Durkon's vampire spirit would be one of very few who was shaped to take that.

If you're a paladin but your worst day is the day you doubted your faith, or the day a family member gets killed in a freak accident, then if you get vamped the spirit is shaped by those and doesn't care about all the good moments.

[Grey Watcher]

HA! Whose soul is absorbing who's now!

Also, the vignettes are adorable! The Uncle Durkon panel!

[NihhusHuotAliro]

I thought that these memories and dialogues between Durkon and Durkon* happened at the speed of thought, in such a way that no delay could be noticeable.

Also, I thought that the absorption of the host's memories meant eternal dormancy for the host (though, as others have pointed out, the few weeks that the parasite has been around might not be enough to form a developed enough consciousness to consume/iterate/compartmentalize the entire life/being of the host so quickly).

Color me confused (I mean, "death and destruction for us all hasn't even happened yet).

[denthor]

Mad now no more evil stuff afterwards.

Belkar got to make his own prophecy of Happiness come true. He cut off the head of a vampire.

[Keltest]

Forcing Greg to grow out of his bitterness and pain? Brilliant!

[hamishspence]

Just because we don't see the vampires who get staked misting doesn't mean they didn't. They don't appear in any other panel, so I would wager they just misted out of panel.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm

Driving a wooden stake through a vampire’s heart instantly slays the monster. However, it returns to life if the stake is removed, unless the body is destroyed. A popular tactic is to cut off the creature’s head and fill its mouth with holy wafers (or their equivalent).

Possibly in this case, chopping off the head, caused the "body is destroyed" principle to kick in - hence the change to mist. I would guess that an unbeheaded, staked vamp's body, remains where it is.

[resound]

I'm lost! What has got Belkar all riled up? And how did he go from 0HP (I assume) to green-glowing terminator? And is Greg paying any attention at all to the outside world? And if Durkon actually turns Greg from the inside and is then killed by Bitterleaf, is it a simple raise dead to get him back? (Haley can probably afford it from loose change!)

Also, remembering Belkar is due to be permanently dead in the near future.

That said, I'm seeing gods handing out wishes if OOTS pull this off.

Belkar goes down after Roy smacks him with [the flat edge of?] his sword. I assume Roy's dealing non-lethal damage, but I'm not sure how that works in a knockout situation. Does Belkar's berserker rage grant him hit points? He did get some barbarian levels a while back, didn't he?

Does someone know how the rules on these? I'm too rusty to remember.

I really don't get why Belkar seems to be channeling Durkula (or Durkon). Thoughts?

[Ron Miel]

Well, that was really, really, really interesting.

Rich Burlew, if you're reading this, I hate to break it to you but Terry Pratchett got there first again.

And, no doubt, a hundred other authors did something similar before Terry did.

Rich has deliberately been avoiding Terry's work for just this very reason.

Cite? As far as I know, he has just stated that he hasn't read Terry Pratchett, not that he deliberately avoids him. Nobody could possibly read every book going.

[zinycor]

I thought that these memories and dialogues between Durkon and Durkon* happened at the speed of thought, in such a way that no delay could be noticeable.

Also, I thought that the absorption of the host's memories meant eternal dormancy for the host.

Color me confused (I mean, "death and destruction for us all hasn't even happened yet).

It is happening at the speed of thought, Just not at the maximum speed that thoughts can go. Afterall, normally greg only takes whatever information he needs from the memory, so it's a fast and simple thing. This time Greg has to look at the memories, and then come to conclusions about them which allow him to change into Durkon. This can take some time.

[Anansiil]

This was great! Very well played and interesting. He was designed to fit into Durkon, and if he took in everything that defined Durkon, he would practically be Durkon.

If you lose all of your memories and experiences, are you the same person you were before? Adding new experiences changes who we are too, so I like where this is going.

(A pity poor Malack didn't have this conversation with himself 😢 )

[Kish]

I really don't get why Belkar seems to be channeling [...]. Thoughts?

Is "What are you talking about" a thought?

Belkar's thoughts, feelings, and words are all Belkar's.

[SunnyFox]

ETA: Oh, I see it now. Belkar has the stake in his right hand and the dagger in his left. He sticks the stake in her chest while cutting off her head with his dagger. So he DID stake her.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Panel 14 shows us both of Belkar's hands, one empty and one holding his dagger. No stake. Cutting off a vampire's head is the same as staking them.... they ded.
And in Panel 11, Belkar uses only his dagger (the stake is in his other hand, but is clearly not being used to stab Ponchella.

[resound]

Is "What are you talking about" a thought?

Belkar's thoughts, feelings, and words are all Belkar's.

"How dare you make me think about things, Durkon!" (as if Belkar is Durkula seeing Durkon's thoughts).

Also...

"How could you not think about how your selflessness would affect me?!?" (again, as if Belkar is seeing Durkon's thoughts).

[Perficio]

Awesome job.

Now my wonder is whether or not Durkon broke the vampire, or if this out come was inevitable?

Assuming Durkula slowly sucked memories from his host over time, would he eventually, slowly step by step become Durkon? Or Durkula be able to process it and maintain himself?

It would be a better story if Durkon overwhelmed Durkula though, since he is the hero of this arc, and so through his agency he must win.

No, I don't think this was inevitable. Consider the differences here between Durkula and the other vampires we know a bit about, Malack and Ponchula.

Malack slowly absorbed memories over a long time, during which he was making new memories as a vampire. The memories of his shaman template were fainter and vaguer than those drinking the blood of his once-relatives, and easily dismissed.

Ponchula wasn't so much absorbing the memories of a struggling host as working together with somebody who was down for being an evil vampire. They probably had an easy flow back and forth, but the conversation kept their identities somewhat separate... for now. Maybe they would have blended over time.

Durkula described himself as made-to-order for the holes in Durkon's heart, meaning he was fundamentally shaped around Durkon's self image from the start. He's had only a couple of days to operate, during which he's been pretending to be Durkon and surrounded by people Durkon knows - continuing Durkon-memories, instead of really making his own. He's had nowhere near the amount of time or distance needed to establish his own identity. And now Durkon took advantage of that, getting Durkula off balance with the emotions that he - as Durkon on his worst day, with some additional shaping by Hel - would be susceptible to... and overwhelmed him with memories to the point that Durkon's identity is now most of who Durkula is. I don't think it's 100%, but there's so little anything else in him - besides some knowledge of the plans Hel laid out - that he's now basically what he'd claimed to be before - Durkon, but a vampire and probably some alignment shift.

I don't think this is normal for a OOTS vampire at all. I think it's the combo of custom-made soul, the work of going incognito... and most of all, Durkon having the exceptional insight, wisdom, and stubbornness to figure out how to reframe Durkula's identity and make it happen.

[Sky_Schemer]

I figured they weren't literally 100% the same, just that having so much of the same memories and experiences means they're effectively the same: Durkon but a vampire ("no more evil than Belkar I'd wager").

Durkula described himself as made-to-order for the holes in Durkon's heart, meaning he was fundamentally shaped around Durkon's self image from the start. He's had only a couple of days to operate.

My biggest question is...why now? Why not 30 minutes ago? Or an hour ago? Or yesterday? Or last week?

I don't see any specific reason why waiting until now offered some advantage.

Edited to add: OK, obviously yesterday and last week is before Durkon had his epiphany, but the larger question still stands.