OOTS #1130 - The Discussion Thread

[warmachine]

Silly me forgetting about Malak.

Now that Greg and Durkon are the same, he's now a devout worshipper of Thor. Alas, I suspect Thor isn't fond of vampires and may even cut off spells. Greg/Durkon will have a new existential crisis.

[Kamendae]

This reminds me a lot of Spiderman and Doctor Octopus.

For me, the triggered memory was "Elminster in Hell" (Amazon link not supplied due to not-enough-posts-yet), which has much the same denouement.

[Kish]

I chose the word deliberately. By spamming "respectfully" in the message body instead of in the signature file where it belongs, it's disrespectful to everyone else who has to read the same thing, over and over.

You should stop claiming to speak for anyone but yourself.

[Sky_Schemer]

Regarding “things that make Durkon’s situation special”, i.e.: why doesn’t this sort of thing happen more often? Wasn’t it also mentioned in an earlier comic that it’s pretty rare for a high-level cleric to succumb to vampirisation?.

It's not the level of the cleric: it's the timing. Durkula only had so much time to pull this whole thing off. Other vampires have the luxury of assimilating memories slowly (several months according to Durkula) because they don't have a deadline measured in days. Durkula asked for a full dump because he can't process what he just saw.

[TriForce]

Even if Durkula gets staked, the Order doesn't have enough diamonds for a resurrection. They spent the cash on the boat people. I think Durkon ain't coming back. The story doesn't need him, anyway.

i Disagree, i believe these past few comics have shown EXACTLY why the story needs Durkon

[VoxRationis]

Satisfying though it might be to watch, I feel like this scene only works because it violates what was previously well-established about how vampires and their bodies' native souls operate. We were both told and shown earlier that the discussions and reactions the vampire and Durkon had were instantaneous from the perspective of outside time, which precludes the first half of this strip. Perhaps the "flood of all memories at once" works slightly differently, but that only applies near the end.

[Nazzo, the 102nd]

I made a quick look on the thread but didn't see it posted, so sorry if it was already said. But I noticed something: on the 10th panel of the second page, Durkon says "Exactly wha our Ma were afraid..." So it looks like that he already knew what was going to happen. This also matches neatly with Greg starting to talk like Durkon, in the last comic ("... from tha dead") and in this one ("I don't unnerstand").

[Askthepizzaguy]

Regarding “things that make Durkon’s situation special”, i.e.: why doesn’t this sort of thing happen more often? Wasn’t it also mentioned in an earlier comic that it’s pretty rare for a high-level cleric to succumb to vampirisation?

So if we’ve started from an already unusually powerful cleric host, and combined that with Durkon’s “worst day” being connected to an act of pure altruistic self-sacrifice, in addition to Greg being a very young vampire AND raised artificially-quickly… Yeah, I can totally buy this being an exceptionally rare occurrence, possibly even a one-off in the entire history of OOTS-world.

Yeah.

Rich really covered a lot of bases here. There was oceans of foreshadowing regarding how the vampires work, how Durkon in particular affected a person with Evil alignment (Belkar), the odd nature of this particular vampire coming into being, making it not a cookie cutter vampire, and everything you just said.

And the 'what we needed... was Durkon' line. So many things.

It was all there and even as late as the very previous strip I only had it as a 1:4 possibility, even though the narrative was screaming it at me. I thought there was a chance Sigdi or the other dwarfs came in, I thought Durkon merely causes Durkula to lose enough concentration that Belkar saves the day, nothing as spectacular as this, I thought Durkula himself would experience character growth maybe, and abandon the Order to go carry out his plan without finishing them off, so many other paths.

I was going to post this last thread, but when I concluded option 4 was narratively the best option, I just saved it in a wordpad and didn't post it.

Spoiler

Show

1. Sigdi and/or the rest of her gang show up and assist in saving the day, because they meet every Wednesday. Either as the primary reason the day gets saved, as a secondary piece of it, or after the critical turning point has taken place. Even if it is just to cast some healing spells or something. I can see some foreshadowing which leads me to believe this is possible. I just think it is unlikely to be the primary reason why this situation would go pear-shaped for team evil.


2. Belkar (with a dash of Hilgya) save the day due to some blown concentration on the part of Durkula. Hilgya is in place to help the party and hurt Durkula and Belkar is in prime position to wipe out the rest of the vampires. The 'stakes' couldn't be any higher or closer, and I mean that in both ways. And he has an arc that is about to peak right around this point in the story. It could all be a mislead but I am still rooting for Belkar to be consequential here as part of his character growth. Less so for Hilgya. I just do not see how they can do this alone, something has to shake Durkula's concentration. Maybe this memory actually succeeds, maybe something more dramatic. You can clearly see Durkula's concentration and focus on the events happening outside his own head are waning. He is barely interested in the real world at the moment.


3. Durkula undergoes some kind of character change, growth, development, or exercises his free will in opposition to Hel's plan, as has been foreshadowed in certain dialogue. However, there is also a lot of indication that he is incapable of making those connections and growing in that fashion, as he is pure negative energy. I felt like maybe that was the direction this was going, because Durkon himself cannot actually affect Durkula, and so I felt like it had to be a voluntary or involuntary change on Durkon's part, either by losing concentration or by changing his mind. However...


4. It has been raised as a possibility that the real Durkon might be about to break free of the metaphorical binds holding him captive, since they seem to be based on this dark chapter of his own life, and might be the negative energy spirit's weakness, instead of its strength. The mistake on the part of Hel might have been choosing Durkon as a vessel, as perhaps those binds are there because Durkon chose that life, and it is a fundamental part of his personality. However, there are times, as this flashback indicates, that even a dwarf can release him or herself from the binds of duty when it comes to family. I think this will be harder to explain or pull off, but it could simply be a matter of releasing the binds, and challenging Durkula inside his own head. That could break the concentration and allow Belkar and perhaps Hilgya to do their thing. Even if Durkon can't do anything besides break free and capture Durkula's attention for a whole second, that could be significant.


5. I don't think Roy, Haley, Elan, Vaarsuvius, Scruffy, any other deus ex machina, or surprise characters, are narratively equipped to turn the tide here. There's too much foreshadowing and structure indicating that one of the other above options is correct. I think there is still a possibility I am missing something, and the Giant can go with this option and still make the story really good, I just don't think that's where we are headed. I think it is narrowed down to Sigdi/Sigdi's gang, Durkula, Belkar and possibly to a lesser extent, Hilgya, to turn the tide.


That said, I also think, somehow, option 4 is now the most likely. It's not going to be a change of heart by the heartless, if free-willed vampire. It's going to be Durkon himself succeeding somehow from behind the dead man's eyes.


At this point, it's even clear within the comic itself that the real battle is happening inside Durkon's head, between two souls. The real Durkon almost HAS to prevail here.


That said, given how the Giant used the Tarquin character to dispel the notion that the story has to be a certain way, I don't trust my own eyes, or my predictive ability. Nor would I ever bet against the Giant to come up with something I did not expect. That is basically a sure bet.


Even if any of the above is right, I still cannot tell which one it is going to be, and it's basically been spelled out for months. All the clues were there, and I still couldn't get it. Only now, when the comic is narrowing down the options rapidly, do I have any idea. And I still don't know.

I had all the pieces put together and I still wasn't sure. It was so well written and I trusted Rich could do anything to still surprise me.

I felt this was the strongest possibility (which someone else came up with to begin with) and I was still dumbfounded when I saw it.

I had a different idea a few strips ago about his dad still being alive to save the day. I'm dumb like that.

I discarded the dad idea when someone pointed out the troll/dragon couldn't have been descended from the family V killed, and it was ignoring the moral lessons of Sigdi's story anyway.

I thought Sigdi and the crew showing up was plausible because of the day of the week thing, which I probably focused way too much on.

Turns out, it was just to get Durkula to go away from the more crowded area so he could face him alone, so to speak. Now it adds up.

So great. I haven't been able to pick who dies next, and literally all my theories about how this would wrap up have been a disaster, no matter how close to the end we got.

Amazing story by Rich, cannot be overstated.

[Lethologica]

I'm reflecting on the first time Durkon* drew from Durkon's memories. All he wanted then was two little words, the knowledge without the experience, to help him imitate Durkon. Now he's begging for the full treatment. And in getting the full treatment, he's no longer just imitating Durkon, but becoming Durkon. What a journey it's been.

Looking at your other posts it doesn't seem like you called this. Honestly it just seems like regardless of what happens you just want to complain about how "obvious, hackneyed, and ass-pull"ey it is. Which I'd imagine is a form of trolling but, I don't get to make that call.

Technically, he 'called it'...but only in the #1129 update thread, after about 100 other people. As predictions go, that's akin to predicting what I'll have for breakfast this morning when I have a bowl full of milk and corn flakes and am reaching for a spoon.

[Zanzaras]

You should stop claiming to speak for anyone but yourself.

Absolutely, 100% agree with this statement. Thank you for voicing exactly what i was thinking.

[hroþila]

Satisfying though it might be to watch, I feel like this scene only works because it violates what was previously well-established about how vampires and their bodies' native souls operate. We were both told and shown earlier that the discussions and reactions the vampire and Durkon had were instantaneous from the perspective of outside time, which precludes the first half of this strip. Perhaps the "flood of all memories at once" works slightly differently, but that only applies near the end.

Yeah, I know what you mean. I imagine that the difference might be that the vampire is not merely absorbing the memories, but actively trying to make sense of them, discussing them with Durkon, thinking about them - old-fashioned generic thinking of the kind that goes in real time, that is. But that doesn't work that well either.

[Shining Wrath]

DURKON WINS!

He wins because he's wise, and understands what it means to be a living creature who has lived through good days and bad. And because he never gave up.

In panel #5, Mr. Scruffy casts some sort of healing magic on Belkar, but it has a green aura - did Roy's sword empower Mr. Scruffy? What's going on?

And now Belkar is going to kill Durkon in Durkon's moment of triumph???

[Cudbie Enniwun]

Haven't read all the posts and someone may have already noted this:

A few people said "bye Ponchula" or something similar. She's probably not gone for good. According to SRD, when vampires are reduced to zero hit points, they turn into mist and try to escape. Note the black mist surrounding Belkar in the following panel.

[resound]

Aha! In snooping around the internet, I see that Berserker Rage is triggered when, "You or an an ally you can see is bloodied or reduced to 0 hit points, or you bloody an enemy or reduce an enemy to 0 hit points." I assume it was delayed by the fact that Belkar was dominated until his Protection from Evil clasp was activated.

[Rrmcklin]

Satisfying though it might be to watch, I feel like this scene only works because it violates what was previously well-established about how vampires and their bodies' native souls operate. We were both told and shown earlier that the discussions and reactions the vampire and Durkon had were instantaneous from the perspective of outside time, which precludes the first half of this strip. Perhaps the "flood of all memories at once" works slightly differently, but that only applies near the end.

Not instantaneous, at the "speed of thought". Because most memories are short that distinction wasn't worth making before, but now I can see why it was important.

[Rrmcklin]

Haven't read all the posts and someone may have already noted this:

A few people said "bye Ponchula" or something similar. She's probably not gone for good. According to SRD, when vampires are reduced to zero hit points, they turn into mist and try to escape. Note the black mist surrounding Belkar in the following panel.

That's been happening to all the vampires. Even if she escapes she needs to reform in her coffin (which she most certainly doesn't have) or she's gone for good.

Her role in the story is done anyway, she was never portrayed as particularly important, just given a bit more personality than most of the others.

[Kish]

Aha! In snooping around the internet, I see that Berserker Rage is triggered when, "You or an an ally you can see is bloodied or reduced to 0 hit points, or you bloody an enemy or reduce an enemy to 0 hit points." I assume it was delayed by the fact that Belkar was dominated until his Protection from Evil clasp was activated.

There's no "bloodied" concept in 3.5ed D&D. Is what you found from 4ed or 5ed?

[Keltest]

Haven't read all the posts and someone may have already noted this:

A few people said "bye Ponchula" or something similar. She's probably not gone for good. According to SRD, when vampires are reduced to zero hit points, they turn into mist and try to escape. Note the black mist surrounding Belkar in the following panel.

Since she doesn't have a coffin, she's functionally dead and gone even if it will take a while to stick.

[Gift Jeraff]

I knew it! I knew there was a reason to why the vampire spirit looked closer to living Durkon and his soul than the undead body: he would eventually look exactly like Durkon. However it seems the strip that lead me to this theory was just an art error (it seemed as though the spirit became opaque after absorbing the memory about Durkon's father, so I thought he would slowly gain color after absorbing more life-defining memories), but I still figured something like this would happen because

-Rich was still being cagey about the name of the book's villain over a hundred strips in
-Rich wouldn't have made Malack's self-identity ambiguous for the sake of misleading us and nothing else
-making the vampire just a generic evil being who saw Durkon's memories would have been a waste of a premise
- "That doesn't mean he won't turn on you when you least expect it, then ask for forgiveness later."

It's not quite the "Durkon as we know it fades away and merges with the vampire" turn I was predicting, but I'm still gonna say I called it, especially in comparison to all the "Durkula can't understand growth" speculation I saw.

[hamishspence]

Aha! In snooping around the internet, I see that Berserker Rage is triggered when, "You or an an ally you can see is bloodied or reduced to 0 hit points, or you bloody an enemy or reduce an enemy to 0 hit points." I assume it was delayed by the fact that Belkar was dominated until his Protection from Evil clasp was activated.

"Bloodied" is a 4e thing. OOTS is 3.5.

A 3.5e Barbarian may choose to rage whenever they want, but only a limited number of times per day:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/barbarian.htm#rage

[Alsadius]

I chose the word deliberately. By spamming "respectfully" in the message body instead of in the signature file where it belongs, it's disrespectful to everyone else who has to read the same thing, over and over.

If reading what other people write is something you find disrespectful, then perhaps forums are not the place for you.

Satisfying though it might be to watch, I feel like this scene only works because it violates what was previously well-established about how vampires and their bodies' native souls operate. We were both told and shown earlier that the discussions and reactions the vampire and Durkon had were instantaneous from the perspective of outside time, which precludes the first half of this strip. Perhaps the "flood of all memories at once" works slightly differently, but that only applies near the end.

It's at the speed of thought, not literally instantaneous. I think Greg wanted some time to think when he saw all that.

[jukehero461]

Proving once and for all, ladies and gentlemen, how to weaponize a Wisdom score!

[Gift Jeraff]

Haven't read all the posts and someone may have already noted this:

A few people said "bye Ponchula" or something similar. She's probably not gone for good. According to SRD, when vampires are reduced to zero hit points, they turn into mist and try to escape. Note the black mist surrounding Belkar in the following panel.

That's ash, not mist. Rich made a point of distinguishing the two when Malack was dusted, but I can't find the post. The mist form has red eyes, some white mixed with the black, and the color of magic objects they're holding (like when Gontor had the teleport orb).

[Ornithologist]

For some reason, I'm now convinced that Minrah is related to the blond Dwarf of Durkon's Family. (can't remember her name either).

[canterrain]

I signed in for the first time in 9 years just because of how amazing this page is.
And it IS amazing. And wonderful. And perfect.

It reminds me alot of the Doctor's speech in Rings of Akhaten, which in itself was perfection:


Bravo Rich, Bravo.

[Shining Wrath]

I think the way Durkon won was that he got Durkon^T in the last panel of page 2 to answer"Yes" to the question "Do ye want tha memories tha'll help how yer feelin'"? That's what didn't happen to Malack, and doesn't happen to most vampires - they never take all the happiness and peace and belonging and contentment all at once.

BTW, "TAKE 'EM ALL!" is the most badass Durkon line ever. He knows he's destroying the vampire with an overdose of pure happiness, and he likes it. Darth Durkon Voice YOU FAIL TO UNDERSTAND THE POWER OF THE LIGHT SIDE.

Also, in panel #2 of page 2, Belkar's right hand is no longer holding the stake - it's currently right in between Ponchella's shoulder blades, which is why she says "*lllrgh!*. You would too,in all probability. He decapitated her after he staked her.

Hilgya evidently feels no responsibility to protect the other vampires at all.

[mikeejimbo]

Oh, I'm not expecting it. It's just a nice show of respect to other forum members to refrain from spamming your posts with the same text every time. That's what the sig file is for. And the avatar. And the location, biography, interests and all the other parts of the user profile. We've got plenty of room to express ourselves. But some of us feel we have to display status in public by doing even more and repeating the same dang thing over again. I've seen this on other forums, too. It's like conspicuously putting your name on a building.

I thought Brian started signing his posts because his username was similar to someone else's, so he began using his real name. But it has been about a decade so my memory is fuzzy on those details. (I also seem to remember him singing?)

As for the topic at hand, my first thought is that it wouldn't be the end of the world for Belkar to kill Durkon now. He could be raised. I think that the vampire is Durkon enough to make that sacrifice now.

[hamishspence]

For some reason, I'm now convinced that Minrah is related to the blond Dwarf of Durkon's Family. (can't remember her name either).

I believe this strip was where she was first named as Shirra:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1088.html

[Alsadius]

As for the topic at hand, my first thought is that it wouldn't be the end of the world for Belkar to kill Durkon now. He could be raised. I think that the vampire is Durkon enough to make that sacrifice now.

How literally do you mean the phrase "it wouldn't be the end of the world"?

[Wlerin]

Spoiler

Show

5. I don't think ... Scruffy, ... [is] narratively equipped to turn the tide here.

You missed that one by a mile.