Character building Dwarven Fighter/Rogue

[Rowanomicon]

Ok so I'm starting at level 3.

I'll be going mainly Rogue with 1 or 2 levels of Fighter for the BAB and Feats.

I'm thinking dwarf, but human, half-elf, and halfling are also options.

The main things are Feats, Skills, and Equipment (starting gold is 2700gp), but any thought in other areas are more than welcome.

The idea I have for this character is, simplified, he grew up in a religous school for orphaned boys which was almost exclusively human (except for him). He was picked on for his hight by the students and harassed for his attitude by the faculty. He became a brawler to deal with his peers and a criminal to spite authority.
I need to see what works for the DM and group, but I'm thinking his reason for going off adventuring is that he's gotten a crime organization very angry with him somehow.

I'd like for him to fight with his fist. How can I make him an effective unarmed combatant (possibly using gauntlets)?

Another thing I'm unsure about is armor. I know heavy armor inhibits many rogue skills, but maybe I'll just mostly use skills unaffected by armor check penalties. I'd like him to be good in combat and part of that is AC, but I'll see what works.

Books available are core and core only. He has to be non-evil.

[KillianHawkeye]

Unless you are a monk, fighting unarmed is a poor choice. If you still want to do it, try using a spiked gauntlet for better damage and being considered "armed". Otherwise, Improved Unarmed Strike is a must or you'll take a ton of AoOs. IUS also opens up Improved Grapple, if you're into that sort of thing.

If you want to be able to use your evasion and limit ACP, you have to keep to light armor, so make sure to have a high Dex. Take Combat Reflexes. Take Dodge and wear a shield to boost AC. Maybe take Improved Shield Bash and TWF with a spiked shield. Don't forget Improved Initiative so you can Sneak Attack your flat-footed foes. Weapon Focus and Power Attack would fit the character if you've got extra feats, and it'll help boost your low damage dice. Put a high score into Str, and let your dwarven stat boost take care of Con.

As far as magic items, you can afford a +1 weapon OR armor, but not both and no special abilities. Otherwise, a ring of protection or amulet of natural armor would stack with your worn armor and shield bonuses, but you can't afford both. You've still gotta save money for mundane equipment, and you could always get some cheap potions or oils if you want, but those'll be gone once you use them. Buying a mount would help if you do a lot of overland travel, but they're a little pricey and not much use in a dungeon.

That's pretty much all I can think of for level 3, but I like the character concept! Good luck!

[Citizen Joe]

See if you can do an Improved Bullrush build. I think your dwarfy stableness will help.

[Rowanomicon]

Ugh, my stat roll was
8 Cha
11 Wis
10 Con
13 Int
13 Dex
14 Str

That's before racial modifiers. Do you think that's the right placement for stats or should I rearrange them.

I think I'll go with either a spear as my weapon or a short spear and shield.
Suggestion either way?

Feats I'm looking at include:
Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack
Improved Crit
Improved Init
Power Attack (thin I'll have the BAB to spare?)
Weapon Focus
Suggestions?

I'm not so sure about an Improved Bull Rush build...

As for armor guess I'll go with Studded Leather.

Also since I get a +1 ability boost should I put towards Str or Dex?

[Citizen Joe]

Feats I'm looking at include:
Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack
Improved Crit <- Needs BAB +8
Improved Init
Power Attack (thin I'll have the BAB to spare?)
Weapon Focus
Suggestions?

[Rowanomicon]

Oh, thanks.

Here's my character so far:
http://www.thetangledweb.net/profiler/view.php?id=22354
Thoughts/feeling?
Suggestions?
Criticism?

[Jannex]

Ugh, those are some truly unfortunate stat rolls. Any chance your DM will let you reroll? Even the "elite array" gives you a 15...

For your stat increase, absolutely go for Dex. In fact, switch the 14 into Dex now, and bump your Strength up to 14 when you get the stat increase. Dexterity is your primary stat; you want it as high as you can get it. I would have recommended Weapon Finesse, but if you're keeping your Strength as high as your Dex, there's no point. I'd forget about Power Attack, though; you've got 3/4 BAB and Sneak Attack. You don't do damage by fighting hard, you do damage by fighting dirty.

Armor-wise, Masterwork studded leather is the way to go for now. Later, when you have the spare cash (1100gp), you might want to start thinking about a mithral chain shirt. It's the highest armor bonus you can get without an Armor Check Penalty. And so very many of your most useful skills are susceptible to ACP.

If you still wanted to go for the "street brawling" kind of feel without actually dealing with unarmed combat, punching daggers are nice. Whatever you decide on for your primary weapon, though, I have two suggestions: have secondary weapons that cover the other types of damage (Bludgeoning/Piercing/Slashing), and conceal half a dozen daggers on your person at all times.

If you had a higher Dex, Combat Reflexes might be fun, but as it stands now you'd only be getting one extra AoO. I do like the Dodge/Mobility tree, and when avoiding an enemy's full attack is more important than making one of your own, Spring Attack isn't as bad as everybody says--though, with a dwarf's 20' move speed, it might not be quite as useful for you. I always enjoy Improved Critical, though it definitely falls into the "future plans" category.

I think the next thing you should think about is deciding on the skill set your character will deal with primarily. Are you the sneaky type (Hide/Move Silently/Listen/Spot)? The felon (Forgery/Disable Device/Open Lock/Sleight of Hand)? The acrobat (Balance/Climb/Jump/Tumble)? Note that none of these are mutually exclusive, with 9 skill points/level. Though with an adjusted 6 Charisma, I'm assuming you're not going to be the face (Bluff/Diplomacy/Intimidate).

Edit: This is what I get for taking forever to write a post. Here are my thoughts on the character sheet you linked.

Str: 15
Dex: 13

No. You want your Dex as high as possible. Your AC and your skills depend on it. Unless you're planning on going primarily Fighter, with only a little bit of Rogue thrown in for color (which was not the impression I got from your OP), you'll be a lot better off with Str 14, Dex 14--with plans to further boost your Dex later on.

HP: Either something's wrong here, or you rolled really poorly on your Fighter hit dice.

Armor: Masterwork studded leather only costs 150gp more than regular, and it gets rid of that Armor Check Penalty. ACP is not your friend.

Shield: Again, Masterwork. It'll need to be Masterwork if you want to get it magicked-up later on, anyway.

Skills: Okay, a few things...

• Why do you have 4 ranks in Gather Information, when you've got a -2 Charisma? With this build, you're not going to be the party face; it's probably best to save those skill points for somewhere else, where they can do some more good.
• Same deal with Disguise. Unless it's necessary for your concept or backstory, I'd lose it and move the ranks elsewhere.
• Why no Knowledge (local)? It's useful, and you don't have an Ability penalty there. Is your character new to the area where the campaign takes place?
• Tumble. I cannot stress this enough. You want Tumble. DC 15 to move out of a threatened space without incurring an Attack of Opportunity. DC 15 to soak ten feet of falling damage. Tumble is your friend.
• You see how much those Armor Check Penalties are hurting your skill modifiers at this level? This is why you want Masterwork armor; so you're not essentially wasting skill points and making life harder for yourself.

Feats: Hm. I'm not sure that Power Attack will do you a lot of good, honestly. If you're primarily focusing on Rogue, most of your damage will come from Sneak Attack, not Power Attack. Besides which, you really only get the most bang for your buck with it from a two-handed weapon, and you're using a shield. That extra damage only happens if you successfully hit, remember.
Weapon Focus... eh. It's another +1. It's only worth it if you really can't think of anything else to take. If you really want that additional +1 to hit, don't forget to buy Masterwork weapons (again, they'll need to be, if you're planning on having them enchanted later).
Improved Initiative is okay; it gives you a better shot at getting Sneak Attack damage in on the first round of combat.
I like Dodge; you can probably pick up Mobility already as well, which is nice at low levels, when you don't have a 100% chance of success on those Tumble checks to avoid AoO's.
You've got a 13 Int; is there any chance you're interested in anything on the Combat Expertise tree? Trip, or Disarm, or suchlike? Combat Expertise itself isn't bad, for those times when you'd really rather not get hit.

Also, I'm curious: why the shortspear? If it's a flavor thing, I can understand that, but I'm not seeing much advantage in terms of mechanics, except for having the option to throw it.

[Raolin_Fenix]

Ugh, my stat roll was
8 Cha
11 Wis
10 Con
13 Int
13 Dex
14 Str

Reroll. I believe the PHB suggests that if your total rolls equal less than 75, you are entitled to a reroll. I could be wrong about the specifics, but I know it's there somewhere....

It comes to a total of 69.

[Leon]

Unarmed Comat while slow to start can pick up quite well with Superior Unarmed Strike, particuly if combinded with sneak attack.

the Heavy Armour could be a interesting take on normal idea's that come with the rogue, focusing on skills unaffected by the check, or even living with the check and balancing it out

[Dr. Weasel]

Tumble. I cannot stress this enough. You want Tumble. DC 15 to move out of a threatened space without incurring an Attack of Opportunity. DC 15 to soak ten feet of falling damage. Tumble is your friend.

No matter how many times people say this, it merits further repetition.

The Dodge and Combat Expertise trees are probably more friendly to Rogues of any sort than Power Attack will ever be. You're going to have trouble making contact so dropping your to-hit even further for only one extra damage is nasty.

[Skjaldbakka]

I would just like to point out that a Rogue doesn't really care what his base weapon damage is except at low level. A rogue's damage is from sneak attack, not weapon die. Which makes I.U.S. perfectly viable for a rogue. Heck, you can probably make a better crazy acrobatics unarmed fighter guy with a rogue than with a monk.

Reroll. I believe the PHB suggests that if your total rolls equal less than 75, you are entitled to a reroll. I could be wrong about the specifics, but I know it's there somewhere....

That isn't based on the total. A 'gimp' roll is any roll with no stats above 14, or with a net modifiers of +1 or less. I set a point buy amount as the 'gimp' threshhold for my games. (typically 32 min, when they are rolling).

[KillianHawkeye]

Ugh, my stat roll was
8 Cha
11 Wis
10 Con
13 Int
13 Dex
14 Str

That's before racial modifiers. Do you think that's the right placement for stats or should I rearrange them.

Also since I get a +1 ability boost should I put towards Str or Dex?

Um, I'm not sure where you're getting this +1 ability boost, since you don't get that until level 4 and you're only level 3.

I say drop Disguise and Gather Information and pick up Intimidate and Tumble instead. Intimidate is probably the only Cha skill you need to bother with. And Tumble just rocks.

You still need to add in some magic items, and boost your stuff up to masterwork at least to eliminate ACP. Or upgrade to masterwork chain shirt and heavy shield for 2 extra points of AC at the same ACP you currently have. And other than the fact that it's dirt cheap, is there some reason you're using the shortspear instead of, say, a dwarven waraxe?

[Rowanomicon]

Thanks, I knew the +1 was at level 4, but somehow got confused, oh well. Maybe it was wishful thinking.

Thanks for the skill tips, I think you're right.

I know I'm not done my equipment and I plan on upgrading my things to masterwork. I think I'll even switch to chain shirt and heavy shield.

As for the spear, I don't really know. I just thought it would fit the character well. Also at a moments notice he can throw it.
I think I'll change to a Dwarven Waraxe.
What should I use for ranged combat. I'm thinking a Crossbow. Probably Light seeing as you can actually get of one shot every round with it.

[Draz74]

Reroll. I believe the PHB suggests that if your total rolls equal less than 75, you are entitled to a reroll. I could be wrong about the specifics, but I know it's there somewhere....

It comes to a total of 69.

Um, the PHB suggests that the Elite Array is a normal-ish expectation for characters, and it only totals 72 points.

His stats aren't great, there's no arguing with that. But I think this thread is experiencing some Codex Creep-ed expectations, where people are thinking 32-point buy is "normal" powered again. Pet peeve of mine.

[goat]

If you've got CSc, the deadly defence feat would fit well with your backstory of someone who learnt to fight while being picked on, but it does rely on weapon finesse, light armour, and on not using a shield. That +D6 can be useful when you're caught in the middle of combat though.

[Thinker]

Um, I'm not sure where you're getting this +1 ability boost, since you don't get that until level 4 and you're only level 3.

I say drop Disguise and Gather Information and pick up Intimidate and Tumble instead. Intimidate is probably the only Cha skill you need to bother with. And Tumble just rocks.

No. Intimidate is a worthless skill. Making your opponents shaken for one round does not help.

Um, the PHB suggests that the Elite Array is a normal-ish expectation for characters, and it only totals 72 points.

His stats aren't great, there's no arguing with that. But I think this thread is experiencing some Codex Creep-ed expectations, where people are thinking 32-point buy is "normal" powered again. Pet peeve of mine.

It is still less than a 25 point buy (21 by my count), which is supposed to be normal powered.

[goat]

It is still less than a 25 point buy (21 by my count), which is supposed to be normal powered.

Normal powered for an adventurer.

An average humanoid is supposed to be 15 point AFAIK.

[Rowanomicon]

Unfortunately those are the stats I'm stuck with. Unless my DM says otherwise.
(Those were my second and better set of rolls.)
I've edited my stats, skills, and equipment.

So I should ditch Power Attack for?

I could afford mithral scale mail (which would have a -1 ACP).
Should I?
Does the reduction of ACP granted by being masterwork stack with that granted by being mithral? If so I could have no ACP with Scale and -1 ACP with Chain.

Oh, and yes my HD rolls were abysmal.

I think I hate this board's roll tool.

[Jannex]

Mithral armor is automatically Masterwork, so no. The best armor you can get with no ACP is a mithral chain shirt, which is what I'd recommend at least until you're higher level and have enough skill ranks that a little bit of ACP won't be quite as devastating. (A chain shirt and scale mail have the same AC bonus anyway, so there's little reason to go for the latter.)

And yeah, I'd suggest dumping Power Attack--maybe in favor of Combat Expertise? Sometimes you want a little extra defense, and it opens up some interesting options for later feats.

[goat]

You look like you're three points short in your allocated skills. Your list shows 39, you should have 4*(8+1)+2*(2+1) which is 42.

[Rowanomicon]

Yes, I only added the skill points for 1 level of Fighter, changing that now.

Any idea why my ACP is showing up as -3 when it's not, and how I can make it right?

I've equipped him with mithral masterwork chain mail and assumed that means the ACP is -1. Am I wrong? I thought I was, but couldn't find it written anywhere (all I have to go on is SRD and I don't have my books with me).

[goat]

Actually, I think you're listing your armour and shield as being both carried and worn, and thus confusing the sheet. It's hitting you twice on the weight, and so you're in medium load (-3 check) territory. Take your gear out of your "other possessions" and select it as only worn & wielded rather than worn+carried.

That should reduce you to carrying 50lbs, which puts you (just) as a light load.


As an aside, a chainmail suit made of mithral is based off medium armour, and so mithral-isation costs 4k GP. I think that's a bit over budget.

[ocato]

Your sheet has you using a dwarven waraxe and having weapon focus in a shortspear. Did I miss a reason for this? Sorry if you already explained it.

[Draz74]

I'm actually playing a Dwarf Rogue 3 / Fighter 1 myself right now. I have a very different character concept than you, but I'll tell you a bit about him anyway. He's an engineer, with high ranks in Craft (various things including Trapmaking), Knowledge (A&E), Search/Disable Device/Open Lock, and UMD. Other skill points in Appraise, Listen, Sense Motive, and Sleight of Hand. It's kind of fun, for what it's worth, to play a Rogue for a change who's not a typical Hide/Move Silently/Tumble character.

Since he doesn't worry about those three skills, he can afford to wear decent armor. Started with a breastplate, now upgraded to a mithral breastplate.

I've been well-served so far by a TWF style, using a Dwarven Waraxe and a Light Spiked Shield. Feats are Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Shield Bash, and Skill Focus (Craft(Trapmaking)).

[Rowanomicon]

Thanks everyone.

Changed Weapon Focus to Dwarven Waraxe.

Took gear off other possessions list, fixed the problem.

Changed armor back to masterwork studded leather.

Well, he's pretty much done.
Still don't know what I should replace Power Attack with. Suggestions please?
Anything else look wrong or other feats/skills I should replace?
What else should I do as far as equipment. I need some basic stuff and masterwork thieves tools.
Should I enchant my shield? Enchanting my axe would be possible, but it would take up the vast majority of my money.

[Jannex]

It looks like you're running into a bit of confusion with the armor. "Chain shirt" and "chainmail" are actually different armors. A chain shirt is light armor, +4 AC bonus and ACP of -2, which is reduced to zero when you make it mithral. Chainmail is medium armor, with +5 AC bonus and an ACP of -5, which mithral only reduces to -2. If you've got the cash for it, I strongly suggest you go with a mithral chain shirt. Best armor in the game, in my opinion.

I take it you weren't interested in Combat Expertise as a possible feat? If you're planning on continuing the Dodge feat tree, you could swap out Power Attack in exchange for Mobility.

As far as enchanting things goes, I'd start with your armor. It's cheaper than enchanting a weapon, and you're going to want that AC up as high as possible, given that hit point total.

[Rowanomicon]

Actually no confusion about the armor except the cost of mithral chainmail. Thanks though.

I've changed the armor to a mithral chain shirt and I've enchanted (+1) the shield. My AC is now 19, not too bad. It'll be 20 with the Dodge bonus.

I'm not too hot on Combat Expertise because I don't want to give up any attack bonus.

I'm still not sure what I should use for ranged attacks: Javelins, Light Crossbow, or Heavy Crossbow (only if I take Rapid Reload feat).
Which one do you suggest (or something else)?

Feats I'm thinking of replacing Power Attack with are:
Mobility
Rapid Reload (only if I go with the Heavy Crossbow)
Toughness (my HP is terribly low)
What do you think? One of these, or somehting else?

Also, should I change my 13 in Int to Con/ That would make my Int score 10 and my Con score 15. If so, which skills should I give up?

Those are my 3 questions. Once I've figured them out I'll be done (unless anyone sees anything else that needs fixing).