Should I Stay or Should I Go

[GunDragon]

So I've been playing D&D with a group of guys I've known since high school (it's been about 10 years now) and I've been having a bit of a problem lately.
I've always kind of felt this way about them, but lately it has been stronger than ever. I feel I don't belong with them anymore.
1 or 2 times a week I go to their apartment to play D&D with 3 other guys. They all live in that apartment together and it has been that way for the past few months.
That fact alone makes me feel a little like the odd man out.
Not only that, but I have come to learn that every group of guys has a sort of social hierarchy, a pecking order if you will, and I believe I am the lowest on the totem pole.
I'm not snappy and witty like the other guys. I'm not great at making a quick and cutting comeback when an insult flies my way. And trust me, plenty of insults fly my way.
I just can't take their crap anymore. They berate me, insult me, and make me feel like I don't matter every time I come over. I just don't feel welcome or even necessary.
There's plenty of times where I want to roleplay my character to the fullest, but I am held back from that because I fear that my so-called "friends" will respond to it with more insults.
Sometimes I'll be sitting there quietly during a session, bored out of my mind and staring off into space, and one of them will ask me, "Are you okay?"
And I'll reply with a "Yeah, I'm fine." Or, "I'm just a little tired is all."
I feel like the biggest idiot sitting there at the table, not knowing what to say.
These guys are supposed to be my friends, but I don't trust them not to insult me when I talk, so I often choose to just say nothing at all.
I've thought many times about leaving the table for good, but I just feel like I can't go through with it. I've known these guys for a long time, and maybe I stick around for the sake of the good old days.
Maybe all I need is a little push. Something to make me have some self-respect for a change and just say "No!" to them.

And I'm not saying that these recent sessions of D&D have been completely devoid of fun. There's still laughter, there's still jokes (Not always at my expense, thankfully)
But I feel like these friends of mine aren't really friends to me anymore. Because they obviously don't care about me. And friends are supposed to care about each other, right?
These guys are such *******s.

Well, thank you for listening to me vent. I haven't really made a decision yet as to what to do about them, and that's why I posted all this.
Have any of you had a similar experience before? If so, what did you do?

[DeTess]

Have you talked tot hem about this? If not, you should talk to them about this. I on't know what insults they throw your way, but they might think they're just doing some light-hearted ribbing, rather than making you miserable. Or maybe they really are just ***** who want to make you miserable, but the only way to find out is to ask them.

Edit: that having been said, based on what you said here, I'd probably leave if for some reason I was incapable of having a conversation with them about this. It'd probably be better to have the conversation though, because it removes a lot of the uncertainty.

Edit2: Also, you sound really depressed. Maybe consider talking to a doctor about this?

[GunDragon]

I haven't talked to them about any of this yet. That whole process seems like it would be ripping off a band-aid.
I wish it were just light-hearted jabs, because then it would be funny, even if it was against me.
But their insults are not like that. They are cruel and mean, more often than not. And I have resigned myself to just sit there and take it quietly, because when I try to argue or defend myself, that often just makes it worse. They're not laughing with me, they're laughing at me. It's annoying. It's infuriating. It takes me a lot of willpower just to keep from storming out of there.

[Spore]

People who do not understand where your limits about jokes are cannot be _friends_. Because I define a friend as someone who cares about your emotional state. That being said I do love me some sarcasm, friendly insults and banter. And I sometimes lack the ability to notice if someone is truly hurt by it.

And I'm not saying that these recent sessions of D&D have been completely devoid of fun.

Honestly I quit my group because of other things (overblown ingame dramas when I just came to visit friends and roll a few dice) and I was happier for it.

They're not laughing with me, they're laughing at me. It's annoying. It's infuriating. It takes me a lot of willpower just to keep from storming out of there.

You do not storm out there like you are some drama queen that cannot take jokes. You stand up, coldly state: "I think I should go." and then leave. Let them figure it out. Maybe you invite a friend from another friend circle to the game. His or her job is to gauge if the insults are truly meant to be hurtful, and they then say what you think the whole time.

Of course you ask your friends if some newcomer who is interested in the game is allowed at the table?

[Satinavian]

Talk to them about it.

If you can't talk to them about it (i know, it is incredibly hard to do so), walk.


You should not force yourself to sit through it for the sake of old times or because you don't want to give up the friendship or because you feel a responsibility to do so. You would only start to hate those guys sooner or later and/or hate yourself for not having the guts to confront them.

[HidesHisEyes]

In my experience there’s a certain kind of guy who organises his social experiences with other guys around “banter”, ie taking the piss out of his friends and expecting them to do the same. It sounds like that kind of group. I’d say if you can get into a habit of brushing off the stuff they say and taking the piss out of them in the same way, then do that, and maybe the atmosphere will improve. If that’s not you then I’d say just don’t bother with these guys. You can still be friends but there’s no need to subject yourself to sitting through a D&D game with them every week. You don’t have any responsibilities to them, and I’m sure you can find another group (play online if necessary?)

[GunDragon]

People who do not understand where your limits about jokes are cannot be _friends_. Because I define a friend as someone who cares about your emotional state. That being said I do love me some sarcasm, friendly insults and banter. And I sometimes lack the ability to notice if someone is truly hurt by it.



Honestly I quit my group because of other things (overblown ingame dramas when I just came to visit friends and roll a few dice) and I was happier for it.



You do not storm out there like you are some drama queen that cannot take jokes. You stand up, coldly state: "I think I should go." and then leave. Let them figure it out. Maybe you invite a friend from another friend circle to the game. His or her job is to gauge if the insults are truly meant to be hurtful, and they then say what you think the whole time.

Of course you ask your friends if some newcomer who is interested in the game is allowed at the table?

The thing is, I already got a newcomer to join the group a few years back. Last year, the newcomer left the group and stopped going to sessions because he had the same problem I did.
The group of jerks in question were quite merciless in their verbal dismantling of the newcomer. They seemed to insult and rudely criticize every thing the newcomer did or tried to do. I honestly felt sorry for him, because he seemed to have a bigger bullseye on his chest than I did. Even to this day, they keep talking trash about him behind his back.
The newcomer is a wise man. He has more self-respect and he doesn't take other people's crap like that, at least, not for too long. I do one-on-one D&D sessions with that newcomer now. It's not as fun as a full group, but it still kinda works.

And yeah I've never actually stormed out of a session before, like a drama queen would. I just calmly make up an excuse and then leave early.

[BreaktheStatue]

So I've been playing D&D with a group of guys I've known since high school (it's been about 10 years now) and I've been having a bit of a problem lately.
I've always kind of felt this way about them, but lately it has been stronger than ever. I feel I don't belong with them anymore.
1 or 2 times a week I go to their apartment to play D&D with 3 other guys. They all live in that apartment together and it has been that way for the past few months.
That fact alone makes me feel a little like the odd man out.
Not only that, but I have come to learn that every group of guys has a sort of social hierarchy, a pecking order if you will, and I believe I am the lowest on the totem pole.
I'm not snappy and witty like the other guys. I'm not great at making a quick and cutting comeback when an insult flies my way. And trust me, plenty of insults fly my way.
I just can't take their crap anymore. They berate me, insult me, and make me feel like I don't matter every time I come over. I just don't feel welcome or even necessary.
There's plenty of times where I want to roleplay my character to the fullest, but I am held back from that because I fear that my so-called "friends" will respond to it with more insults.
Sometimes I'll be sitting there quietly during a session, bored out of my mind and staring off into space, and one of them will ask me, "Are you okay?"
And I'll reply with a "Yeah, I'm fine." Or, "I'm just a little tired is all."
I feel like the biggest idiot sitting there at the table, not knowing what to say.
These guys are supposed to be my friends, but I don't trust them not to insult me when I talk, so I often choose to just say nothing at all.
I've thought many times about leaving the table for good, but I just feel like I can't go through with it. I've known these guys for a long time, and maybe I stick around for the sake of the good old days.
Maybe all I need is a little push. Something to make me have some self-respect for a change and just say "No!" to them.

And I'm not saying that these recent sessions of D&D have been completely devoid of fun. There's still laughter, there's still jokes (Not always at my expense, thankfully)
But I feel like these friends of mine aren't really friends to me anymore. Because they obviously don't care about me. And friends are supposed to care about each other, right?
These guys are such *******s.

Well, thank you for listening to me vent. I haven't really made a decision yet as to what to do about them, and that's why I posted all this.
Have any of you had a similar experience before? If so, what did you do?

Late 20s/Early 30s has been a *rough* time, at least for me, because I've grown apart from most of my friends. People get SOs, maybe start having kids, move away for new jobs, it's natural, but that doesn't mean it sucks less.

It's also the first time you start to feel the windows close, and that's even worse. I don't know your friends, and I don't mean to sound like a judgemental jerk, but if they're three high school friends sharing an apartment with each other in their late 20s, they're probably not doing as well as they hoped to do.

Bitterness can make people extremely cruel.

The nice thing to say would be "Talk to them, work it out," - that's what 90% of the advice on this website boils down to - but I wouldn't. Find friends that aren't going to treat you like garbage, and let those 3 guys stew together.

[Pleh]

Nah. You should definitely leave the group. The pecking order thing isn't going to change by saying it bothers you and is more likely to make you a target for further harassment.

If/when they ask why you're leaving, go ahead and be upfront about it. If/when they ask why you didn't tell them sooner, be honest and tell them their social dynamic made you feel they would be hostile to any expression of vulnerability, so talking about it seemed to have a no win conclusion.

I've never bothered with being friends with guys when I could feel the pecking order thing going on. It's just a poor foundation for friendship if both guys aren't growing in a positive way from the rivalry (which can happen; some guys thrive and become better people when they have friendly competition, and I'm not one of them).

But what I mean to say is I've had a ton of make social groups that were more balanced and felt more cooperative than competitive, so I'm hoping that encourages you to keep looking.

[Mordaedil]

Yeah I'm gonna say this group is beyond saving. Sever and move on.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Well, if you stay there will be trouble, and if you go there will be double...



References aside, I'm with the others-- you're not having fun, and it's not likely to change. Time to go your own way.

[Cluedrew]

So most social group dynamics advice boils down to:

1. Try talking to people.
2. If that doesn't work walk away.

Really you might be past 1 already, but that part is your call. If not for some firsthand experiences with how lighthearted banter can come across sometimes, I would definitely recommend leaving immediately. But that can happen so I would say you might want to try talking first. That is your decision both because you are the one who has to do it and because that maybe depends on many little things I can't judge second hand.

But "stay" as in let things stay as they are, no, in all the stories I have heard they have never just gotten better.

[Deophaun]

People who do not understand where your limits about jokes are cannot be _friends_. Because I define a friend as someone who cares about your emotional state.

Sometimes I'll be sitting there quietly during a session, bored out of my mind and staring off into space, and one of them will ask me, "Are you okay?"

That is all.

[Kyrell1978]

I would certainly talk to them about it. Try to do it separately, so that you don't feel overwhelmed by all of them being defensive at once if you think that would help. It may be the case that they have a rather rough way of speaking to each other (I know that my friends and I do) that isn't meant to be hurtful. If this doesn't work sit down and think about what it is that is going to do you the most good. I've had to leave a group before. (A little of the story is actually over on the "I rolled a one on this group thread"). Before I made that decision, I sat down with a person that I knew I could trust and tried to take account of both the positive and the negative of playing in that group. It turned out for me that the negatives outweighed the positives.

[Calthropstu]

Heh.

If you decide to leave, do so in a blaze of glory. Post an optimization thread in the apropriate forum.

Op your character to the max.

Wait for a particularly rude insult.

And kill them.

Then they make new characters, wait for another insult.

And kill them.

Make them ask you to leave.

[Maelynn]

So far what I read from your posts, it could very well be that these guys have built their friendship (and yours!) around insulting eachother. I'm obviously not an expert, but I often hear that certain types of men see this as 'playful banter' and a valuable means of bonding. Kind of like how certain types of women give eachother fake compliments even when both parties know damn well it's not meant (often even the opposite). Also not an expert there, since I'm not that type of woman nor do I associate myself with them. Anyway.

The fact that they ask if you're okay when you're withdrawn might also be indicative. People who don't care won't ask if you're okay.

So it could be that you're not that type of man, that you're more sensitive to insults and don't appreciate them. But that you could still be friends, if both parties are willing to mind the other a bit more.

However.

Even to this day, they keep talking trash about him behind his back.

This is a red flag for me. Now, it could very well be that something else happened that I'm not aware of that has caused the newcomer to leave a bad impression on your friends. It could also mean that they're indeed arsecandles who get off on bringing others down. I'm inclined to lean towards the former, because they display this behaviour even to their friends/roommates.

My suggestion would be to collect all your guts and tell them how you feel. Don't make it an emotional outburst right after one of them tossed you an insult again, because that might drive them into a defensive position and make matters worse. Just be up front as soon as you all sit down, before play starts. Tell them honestly that you've been very uncomfortable with their insults lately, and that they might see those insults as a joke but that you don't. Not at all. They're annoying you (don't say hurt, don't start about feelings) up to the point of ruining your fun. And that you'd appreciate it if they toned it down. That hey, if they aren't willing or able do that, well - no hard feelings, but then you'd rather not come anymore.

Depending on their reaction, you'll know if they're friends who sincerely think that insulting friends is the way to bond or if they're indeed arsecandles who don't deserve to be in your life.

[martixy]

These are the RPG forums so people default to "talk to your party".

But this is more of a social issue and the game is extremely tangential to the whole thing. And that advice may not be the most appropriate here.

From what you've said, this feels very one-sided. I think the best option is to remove yourself from these gatherings with an honest excuse like "This isn't fun for me anymore" and see what the fallout is, both for you and them. See how you feel after. See what they say. And if they say anything keep a lookout for any red flags. Do they just miss their handy punching bag? Or are they genuinely valuing your contributions? Only in the last case does the usual advice of "talk to them" become viable. But based on your last post and trash-talking the newbie that left a long time ago, I think that option has a vanishingly slim chance of materializing.

[denthor]

Your bored?

Why?

Are participating in the game? No you sit there quietly. No interactions. What are playing? Fighter mage cleric?

Maybe your bored with the character your playing. When I play a fighter I can not get into the game even with my imagination. I must run something that investigates corners sleazy bars where they pee on the walls oh and funny enough my female characters live my males die. Me swing me smash not my game. bores me.

Campaign with boats I personally hate boats all of them. So that bores me. Look at the setting.

Find something you like and investigate drag the party to it. Have private talks with the DM. Find what interests you.

If all that fails then quit

[Kyrell1978]

So far what I read from your posts, it could very well be that these guys have built their friendship (and yours!) around insulting eachother. I'm obviously not an expert, but I often hear that certain types of men see this as 'playful banter' and a valuable means of bonding.

This happens a lot. It is generally just an exercise of wit, a contest of "let's see who can be the most ruthless." Very rarely does it actually mean anything, because if the people gathered really felt that way about one another they wouldn't get together intentionally in the first place.

[Minty]

If I were in your position, I wouldn't bother talking to them about it. I'd simply stop attending the game and let these idiots disappear from my life. It's not a gaming issue, it's an issue of basic incompatibility of personalities.

[PaladinX]

So these people don't sound like your type of guys. Tough part about getting older is figuring out that the stuff that you found acceptable in high school bugs the **** out of you as an adult and might be time to move on.

Best of luck to you

[Darth Ultron]

Well, simply put, people do change over time. So, it is very possible the guys you knew have changed over the years. And this is even more true if you are talking about growing up. (like if you have known them for ten years and are now 25).

Also, when you get a 'sub group' that is closer then the whole group, you often get people left out. Three guys living together, and then one outsider, is a good example.

In any case, this group of guys does not seem like people you want to be around.....so maybe you should just leave and find another group.

[Mastikator]

Your circle of friends is a dysfunctional group, it's not uncommon but it's not inevitable for every group either. It's entirely possible to have a group of friends where nobody feels like they are being abused.

You should have gotten out 10 years ago as far as I'm concerned.

[GunDragon]

Thank you all for your comments. I am considering what each of you had to say.
I'm probably going to call them on the phone one by one and tell them I won't be coming to game anymore.
It's easier for me to talk one on one rather than facing them all at once at their apartment.
That's 3 less friends I'm going to have, but with friends like these, who needs enemies?

And yeah I thought about treating them exactly the way they treat me, in attempts to get them to ask me to leave, but that would go against my nature, and I would be uncomfortable with myself afterwards. It just seems like the less mature route, but would probably get the job done anyway. I don't know.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Your friends can't read your mind, dude. If they ask, "are you okay?" and you answer in the affirmative or brush it off then they -can't- know there's a problem. You need to nut up and have an honest talk with them. If you explain where you're coming from and they don't care, to hell with 'em and move on with your life. If they're proper friends they'll probably ease off though.

I've had friends that you'd swear hated each other if you read a transcript of them ripping on one another. I've been just as rough. There's nobody I'd rather have at my back if crap hits the fan than those guys. That's just how some guys are; they talk a metric ton of crap at the people they like and either clam up or keep at arms length with strangers and mere acquaintances. They also generally don't tolerate the presence of people they seriously dislike in a social setting unless it would complicate their job.

Serious; talk it out. If you're a decent friend then you at least owe 'em that much after letting them invest a decade of mutual time in hanging with you. Sure, they might be no-account *******s but if they're not then you'd be the one in the wrong for just cutting them loose without explaining why.

I know it's easier said than done but it's the right thing to do. Good luck.

[GunDragon]

Your friends can't read your mind, dude. If they ask, "are you okay?" and you answer in the affirmative or brush it off then they -can't- know there's a problem. You need to nut up and have an honest talk with them. If you explain where you're coming from and they don't care, to hell with 'em and move on with your life. If they're proper friends they'll probably ease off though.

I've had friends that you'd swear hated each other if you read a transcript of them ripping on one another. I've been just as rough. There's nobody I'd rather have at my back if crap hits the fan than those guys. That's just how some guys are; they talk a metric ton of crap at the people they like and either clam up or keep at arms length with strangers and mere acquaintances. They also generally don't tolerate the presence of people they seriously dislike in a social setting unless it would complicate their job.

Serious; talk it out. If you're a decent friend then you at least owe 'em that much after letting them invest a decade of mutual time in hanging with you. Sure, they might be no-account *******s but if they're not then you'd be the one in the wrong for just cutting them loose without explaining why.

I know it's easier said than done but it's the right thing to do. Good luck.

Your way seems good. I like it. I do think I owe them an honest chat, at least. They need to know that their words and actions have consequences.
I've interacted with people enough to know the difference between a good old-fashion roasting in a fun kind of way, and the put-downs that make you feel truly stupid and inadequate.
People can roast you a lot but at the end of the day they still got your back. Not so with these guys. They seem to only really care about themselves and each other.
There's a billion billion in-jokes flying around all the time, and I am in on only a few of them, thus adding to the left-outness.
In the past, I'd often try to share my opinion on something, and they will treat it as if I am stating a fact, and will proceed to undermine what I am saying and shoot it down. I have to be very careful with my words when I am around them, to the point where I can now say only the most basic of phrases so they won't aggressively say things that make me feel like a fool afterwards.
I don't need this crap anymore.

[BreaktheStatue]

Your friends can't read your mind, dude. If they ask, "are you okay?" and you answer in the affirmative or brush it off then they -can't- know there's a problem. You need to nut up and have an honest talk with them. If you explain where you're coming from and they don't care, to hell with 'em and move on with your life. If they're proper friends they'll probably ease off though.

I've had friends that you'd swear hated each other if you read a transcript of them ripping on one another. I've been just as rough. There's nobody I'd rather have at my back if crap hits the fan than those guys. That's just how some guys are; they talk a metric ton of crap at the people they like and either clam up or keep at arms length with strangers and mere acquaintances. They also generally don't tolerate the presence of people they seriously dislike in a social setting unless it would complicate their job.

Serious; talk it out. If you're a decent friend then you at least owe 'em that much after letting them invest a decade of mutual time in hanging with you. Sure, they might be no-account *******s but if they're not then you'd be the one in the wrong for just cutting them loose without explaining why.

I know it's easier said than done but it's the right thing to do. Good luck.

He doesn't owe them s***. If this was an SO treating him like this, they'd rightfully be called abusive.

I spent eight years enlisted in the Army; 95% of my interactions with friends was profanity, dirty jokes, and good-natured ribbing (good-natured being key) and we were careful not to let it get out of hand.

If they've spent 10 years with this guy and can't figure out that what they're doing is causing him distress, then they're probably not very good friends, anyway.

[tensai_oni]

I'll address one thing from the original post.

Not only that, but I have come to learn that every group of guys has a sort of social hierarchy, a pecking order if you will, and I believe I am the lowest on the totem pole.

Dude, no. Real groups of friends are built on mutual respect. What you described happens far too often, but it's not a normal thing and it's not a good thing either. This is what happens when you have a group of emotionally immature guys who think every group needs the alpha male leader, the loser, and so on. That's not a group of friends, that's some kind of proto-tribal society where everyone pecks down on others so they know their place.

This is toxic behaviour and you are better off cutting these people from your life. They might not understand what the issue is because they've been like this for a long time, but just because toxic behaviour has been normalized doesn't mean it's any less toxic. To put it in other words, every bully will tell you to stop taking it so seriously and that "it's just a prank bro".

[Pex]

Talk to them yes, but if you're uncomfortable speaking with all at once, pick one you're most comfortable with, the one who in your opinion gives you a hard time the least. This does not have to be the DM since this isn't really about the game.

It is a guy thing for friends to tease each other. It can go too far, but because you don't live with them your perspective is different. There is a chance they don't mean anything. Even if they're Honest True only kidding around you could still very well have out grown them so to speak. It happens sometimes where friends don't want to be together anymore. There's no hostility but personalities or interests no longer mesh well.

Talk to your "best friend" there. If they still want you around they can lessen the vitriol, but you will have to lighten up a little and do your part. If you can't make a joke about them, follow the lead of someone else's joke on another. When you're the butt laugh along and try a self-deprecating reference. Be corny. If you make a dumb mistake say "I must have rolled a 1."

[Kelb_Panthera]

He doesn't owe them s***. If this was an SO treating him like this, they'd rightfully be called abusive.

I spent eight years enlisted in the Army; 95% of my interactions with friends was profanity, dirty jokes, and good-natured ribbing (good-natured being key) and we were careful not to let it get out of hand.

If they've spent 10 years with this guy and can't figure out that what they're doing is causing him distress, then they're probably not very good friends, anyway.

If it was an SO he'd been with for decade, they'd be living together and he'd be subject to this most of the time. There'd be little room for doubt about malice or manipulation. These are people he sees a couple times week that rip on each other often enough that cutting retorts are apparently expected. There's plenty of room for miscommunication here, particularly if these guys are generally socially inept; something their current living situation rather suggests.

Not that it particularly matters. Them being useless toads would make no difference to the social responsibility we -all- have to not be indecent to those -we- call friends. He owes it to himself as much as, perhaps more than, he owes it to them to either try to make it work, if he has any hope at all, or to give them a clear reason why he wants to dissociate, if he doesn't. That they're utterly failing at being decent to him isn't a good enough reason to fail at it himself.