Point build chart?

[Tyger]

Is the point build cost chart (I think its on page 199 of the DMG) OGL? I can't find it in the SRD. If not, it'll have to wait until I can get access to my books again.

One of my players is whining that a 32 point build is "weak" and he'd rather roll dice. I can't recall off the top of my head how decent you can make a build, but it seems that 32 points should be sufficient to do one 18, one 16, one 14 and the rest 10-8. Am I mistaken?

[GimliFett]

32 would get you 18, 16, 14, 8, 8, 8.

[Crow]

Is the point build cost chart (I think its on page 199 of the DMG) OGL? I can't find it in the SRD. If not, it'll have to wait until I can get access to my books again.

One of my players is whining that a 32 point build is "weak" and he'd rather roll dice. I can't recall off the top of my head how decent you can make a build, but it seems that 32 points should be sufficient to do one 18, one 16, one 14 and the rest 10-8. Am I mistaken?

32 point build is Ok, and pretty well balanced, even though it is technically called "high powered". If I make my players do 32, it will usually come out above the average, depending on what roll method you use.

My current 32 guy has 14,14,14,14,12,12.

I would just let him roll, and tell him his next guy has to be point buy to make it fair for the other players. Do it before the session in front of everyone...I smell fish. Don't give him any rerolls either.

[bosssmiley]

32 point buy, is IIRC enough for a 16, 14, 14, 14, 10, 10.
Not OGL AFAIK though, sorry.

What is your mate rolling Tyger? The "5d6, keep the best" alternative in the DMG? You might wanna remind him that the elite stat array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) is the average he'l reasonably get from "4d6, drop the lowest".

[Jasdoif]

Is the point build cost chart (I think its on page 199 of the DMG) OGL? I can't find it in the SRD. If not, it'll have to wait until I can get access to my books again.

Point-buy is part of creating a character, and as such it can't be published under the d20 license.

[Indon]

You might wanna remind him that the elite stat array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) is the average he'l reasonably get from "4d6, drop the lowest".

No, statistically he'll average a little better.

Not because of how he rolls, but if he rolls very badly, it's easy to get a free mulligan from your DM; but if you roll very high, well, those are the stats you rolled, you just have to play them...

[Crow]

No, statistically he'll average a little better.

Not because of how he rolls, but if he rolls very badly, it's easy to get a free mulligan from your DM; but if you roll very high, well, those are the stats you rolled, you just have to play them...

"Man, I rolled three 18's and the rest above 12! It was crazy!"

[Tyger]

No, statistically he'll average a little better.

Not because of how he rolls, but if he rolls very badly, it's easy to get a free mulligan from your DM; but if you roll very high, well, those are the stats you rolled, you just have to play them...

Well, that isn't "statistically" rolling better than is it? That's getting a free mulligan from the DM, which has nothing to do with the statistics of rolling dice.

Sorry to be snippy there, but that's not comparing the same thing at all.

[Crazy_Uncle_Doug]

Without DM-intervention, that's correct. The standard, 25-point buy yields approximately 13, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12 if evenly distributed amongst all stats. The average roll on 4d6, drop the lowest, is ~12.24, so the 25 comes out right at "Average Adventurer." And we must keep in mind that "Average Common-folk Not Awesome Enough to Be Adventurers" usually have about an average of 10s for stats.

A 32-point buy is well-powered. If your friend believes that low, I personally wonder what kind of games he's used to!

[Indon]

Well, that isn't "statistically" rolling better than is it? That's getting a free mulligan from the DM, which has nothing to do with the statistics of rolling dice.

Sorry to be snippy there, but that's not comparing the same thing at all.

Yes, it's comparing the average _in application_, as opposed to simply in theory.

The "Oh, look at the stats I rolled!" syndrome is indeed another factor, but I prefer to assume people have integrity.

[goat]

I think anyone DEMANDING an 18 at the off is asking a bit much. About the only person I can every think who really needs it is someone going full, pure skill monkey who refuses to give up those extra 4 points.

[Iku Rex]

DnD point buy calculator.

[Merlin the Tuna]

No, statistically he'll average a little better.

Not because of how he rolls, but if he rolls very badly, it's easy to get a free mulligan from your DM; but if you roll very high, well, those are the stats you rolled, you just have to play them...

Even ignoring the "Man, I don't want to play a guy with 6 intelligence" factor, I seem to recall 4d6 drop lowest spitting out pretty close to a 28 point buy, if a smidge under. Can't recall whether that included the published rules for rerolling or not. Either way, pure, by the books rolling tends to spit out around a 28 pt buy.

[Bender]

I calculated the average for 4d6, drop lowest once. It's on average slightly higher than 29 point buy. To calculate it I gave 0 points to anything below 8.
(explanation: a higher roll weighs higher because it costs more in point buy)

add the rerolling after extremely bad rolls, and the average probably goes above 30 point buy.

It's of course average, can be potentially much better or worse.

[Crazy_Uncle_Doug]

Hrm. I compared all results of a 4d6 dropping the lowest, (3 to 18). That is, what the average roll will be using that method.

Arithematic Mean = 12.24
Median (the number in the exact middle if you line them all up) = 12
Mode (the number that appears the most) = 13

That's how I came up with my "average results" for the point buy. Essentially, if you rolled that way, the statistical average will be a 25-point buy.

[Bender]

Hrm. I compared all results of a 4d6 dropping the lowest, (3 to 18). That is, what the average roll will be using that method.

Arithematic Mean = 12.24
Median (the number in the exact middle if you line them all up) = 12
Mode (the number that appears the most) = 13

That's how I came up with my "average results" for the point buy. Essentially, if you rolled that way, the statistical average will be a 25-point buy.

the average is (occurance of stat)*(cost of stat in point buy)/(all possible rolls)

The problem is that the distribution is not normal: 3-14 have a relatively small influence on the average, higher numbers have a higher influence.

[de-trick]

rolling makes the character random, having rolls from a 3 to 18, he could in a small fraction could end up with all 18's but he has the same chance of getting 3's.

also a character rolled could make or break his class eg a monk with a 17, 12, 10, 8, 12, 10 would not work out good, but would be able to play a caster

a pointbuy character will have fixed abilitys but will have to debate wear to put his points
-should i put that stat above a 14

[Crazy_Uncle_Doug]

ACtually, in the 4d6 - lowest, he's a greater chance of getting all 18s than all 3s. 1 roll in 1296 actually yields a result of 3 (that of rolling all four 1s), while 21 in 1296 give you an 18.

In fact, getting a result under 8 is relatively difficult in the 4d6-lowest. 74 in 1296 yield results lower than 8 (that's 3-7). That's not much less than the chance to get a 17 or 18, 75 results in 1296.

Still, when rolling this method, there's a chance these results, which is why I included them in the comparison. The 25 point-buy reflects essentially those numbers I've found. The difference is that you start with your attributes all at 8 and aren't allowed to lower them at all.

[Fax Celestis]

IIRC, 32 points gives you the elite array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8).

[goat]

IIRC, 32 points gives you the elite array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8).

Nope, Elite Array is 25 point. With 32 you could go 16, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8

[ocato]

I'm used to the 'adventurers are very powerful' ideology, and while I don't push it on anyone, a point buy under 32 makes me squirm a little. That's my preference, but I won't get up and leave if they declare a point buy of 28. I will, however, groan just a little to myself and scrap my paladin idea.

[Thinker]

I prefer a 25 point buy, but my group generally does 30.

[de-trick]

I'm used to the 'adventurers are very powerful' ideology, and while I don't push it on anyone, a point buy under 32 makes me squirm a little. That's my preference, but I won't get up and leave if they declare a point buy of 28. I will, however, groan just a little to myself and scrap my paladin idea.

I know how you feel. Also i would love to play in a all 18s game, just to be all perfect

[goat]

I'm used to the 'adventurers are very powerful' ideology, and while I don't push it on anyone, a point buy under 32 makes me squirm a little. That's my preference, but I won't get up and leave if they declare a point buy of 28. I will, however, groan just a little to myself and scrap my paladin idea.

The difference between 28 and 32 is minimal really. What would you do with those 4 points that would suddenly make a paladin work? A 16, 15, 14, 14, 10, 8 instead of a 15, 14, 14, 14, 10, 8?

[Tyger]

Yeah, its kind of understandable why the player is kvetching a bit... the other DMs in our group use a Rolll 4d6 seven times. If you don't like what you got, you can roll this combination up to ten times, each time completely discarding the previous sets.

That makes for a good chance that you can roll a very decent set of stats... So being "restricted" to a measly 32 point buy system is grating on this particular player.

[ocato]

The difference between 28 and 32 is minimal really. What would you do with those 4 points that would suddenly make a paladin work? A 16, 15, 14, 14, 10, 8 instead of a 15, 14, 14, 14, 10, 8?

It's mostly in my brain. Also, the first one has a 16. Besides, 28 is barely less than 32, but 25 is barely less than 28, and hey! 21 is barely less than 25. Gotta draw the line somewhere. I don't give people a hard time about how they run their games, but I have my own personal preference

[Jack Mann]

4d6, drop the lowest averages out to 25, it's true.

However, this is not how we roll stats in 3rd. Many of you are ignoring one caveat of the rolling system.

You ignore results whose bonuses don't add up to at least +1 or lack a single stat better than 14. That boosts the average up to about 28.5.

[Tengu]

32 point buy seems to be the optimum for rather powerful characters. NWN2 using it is just a coincidence.

[Crazy_Uncle_Doug]

4d6, drop the lowest averages out to 25, it's true.

However, this is not how we roll stats in 3rd. Many of you are ignoring one caveat of the rolling system.

You ignore results whose bonuses don't add up to at least +1 or lack a single stat better than 14. That boosts the average up to about 28.5.

Oops. You got me there. I didn't recall that part. I'm used to the old-school "Play it as it falls" mindset too often.

[Burrito]

We usually do it like this: 4d6, drop the lowest, and if you still have any 1's, then you can re-roll them, twice if need be, but after that you have to stick with what you get. It usually give you some pretty decent stats, and usually nothing below 10.