OOTS #1139 - The Discussion Thread

[SkinTaker]

Jesu H.

That's a lot of worlds.

[factotum]

Of all the things I thought Thor might be going to show Durkon, a near-infinite graveyard of worlds is not one of them.

[JumboWheat01]

That's... a lot of dead worlds.

Quick, throw their graves at the Snarl!

[Snails]

People in each world that learn of the Snarl, or the rifts are told the same story: "The first world got et, we lost a pantheon in the process". They simply don't tell about the number of other worlds - that's the bit they keep secret.

Yeah. I am not seeing any contradiction with the Crayon Tale.

That there are places that the Crayon Tale may be incomplete. This twist here surprised the heck out of me, but it in no way contradicts anything we were told. That I can recall.

What is surprising is that the Snarl has not evolved before this, that it never learned to understand the prison of orderly strands of reality, if this is the millionth time it has been trapped by a quite similar cage.

But maybe it just did and that is why there is a world within the world now? What changed? Perhaps this world is the first world since 1.0 that was robust enough to level up Epic characters.

I am still sticking with Kraagor. I still say this is a Chekov's gun:
"Some have theorized that gods were even MORE vulnerable to the Snarl than a mortal of the same level would have been."

This strongly hints that in the past or future, someone is going to stand toe to toe with the Snarl and live long enough to affect the story. Of the physically tough characters on the stage at the moment, I am not expecting Roy to be up to the task. But Kraagor, as dwarf + epic + barbarian + raging, could easily weigh in at more than twice the HP of Roy.

[b_jonas]

That's far more worlds than editions of D&D.

What makes that funny is that this world was upgraded to D&D 3.5 at the start of the online comic, and that Haley's dad was a First Edition thief.

The Snarl always gets out. It's inevitable. The gods have done this so many times before even Odin has probably lost count. One assumes that sometimes the Snarl eats all the souls, and sometimes it doesn't, but ...

No. Not always. Neo will refuse his fate in this world, sacrifice himself, and smooth out the unstabilities of the current world.

[HalfTangible]

This is fascinating. It completely throws the supposedly known plans of all the villains into question. It also raises some serious questions about the meeting of the gods. Why even have the debate about destroying the planet now? Even if Hel gets a lot of souls and a leading role in her pantheon, they'll loop that around in a few more worlds if they're playing the long game. I wonder if the Gates are something new though, that Dorukan's and Lirian's creation might have been a first among all these many, many worlds.

Not so. Hel's only got the bet granting her extra power for this one world, but the other gods aren't going to be able to catch up to that 10 million extra souls unless they manage to get a similar deal going. If Hel is the Queen of the northern pantheon, she can probably just shut down any attempt to pull that sorta deal again.

She is the goddess of DEATH. Much like in the last world, people will praise her whenever they don't die.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Just because it theoretically could have happened in the other worlds doesn't mean it needed to. The possibility of something is no guarantee it will actually happen.

I never said anything about this world being special. It may be but that means nothing for the point I was making. The world doesn't need to have something "special" about it for some mortals to ascend or whatever. It just has to be a flunk, and flunks happen. You shouldn't argue against things people didn't actually say.

Honestly, I'd imagine the real answer is "It doesn't matter for the story, so it won't be brought up at all."

If the possibility of something happening is so low it has only happened in this world and not in any of the googleplex previous, that makes this world somehow special, because the odds of happening would be 1 in a googleplex. Whether its because this one lasted long enough, or because of any other reason, this being the only world with ascended gods makes it special. Which, because I don't think it is (and the current comic really suggests that is NOT what Rich is driving at), I think needs an answer different from "it's just a 1 in a billion flunk".

And I didn't say anything about it needing to come up in the story, so right back at you with the "You shouldn't argue against things people didn't actually say."

Grey Wolf

[Istarial]

Wow. Very well done, Giant, that's a VERY impressively set up and executed speechless moment.

(I do have something that may be a possible nitpick, though: The transition to the dark grey background has a small section where the fact that it's a straight line that's the edge of a solid grey block and not more markers shows fairly clearly if you look closely. (That may be intentional, in which case I of course apologise.))

[SociopathFriend]

For once having trash internet really helped sell something.
(Final panel starts loading)
Me: "Oh, so this is the 3rd world? Neat like D&D 3rd edition-"
(Loads more)
Me: "Oh so it's not that there's... more"
(Loads more)
Me: "Oh."
(Loads more)
Me: "Oh..."
(Loads the rest)
Me: "Ohhhhhhhhhhh."

[HerbieRAI]

So does that mean Hel's bet was actually a smart one?

The worlds have been lasting longer each iteration which implies larger and larger population. And with that many failures its almost a sure bet this one would fail as well. True she would have no power in this world, but she would definitily rule in the next. In fact, it would take thousands of years to get to the point where she wont rule the next one.

[Calemyr]

Huh.

Now I'm wondering about the different groups at play for the rifts.

You've got three basic scopes the factions have been looking at this from:
* Personal level (Order of the Stick, Linear Guild, Order of the Scribble, Tarquin's Group, Team Evil): The fate of the world depends on how we deal with the rifts.
* Iteration Level (The Dark One, Hel): The next iteration is coming soon, time to get ourselves in the best position for when it comes.
* Outer Level (Thor and now the Order of the Stick): This cycle has gone on far too long, and must stop.

The only faction I'm unsure of are the Fiends. They could either be playing on the Iteration Level (working towards a new iteration without the fiendish rivalry) or on the Outer Level (gods aren't the only ones that covet souls, so the Snarl robs us as well). I can't tell which. If it's the Outer Level, they might be (temporarily and after a fashion) on the Order's side, which could present some interesting wrinkles in the story.

[DaggerPen]

comic way too worldy for chief grukgruk sometimes

This made me laugh pretty hard; kudos.

Also, suddenly, the Bet makes more sense to me from Loki's perspective. I imagine it was originally meant as a Dad Lesson that wouldn't last more than a few centuries to make his point, but the world turned out way more long lived than expected.

[Ruck]

If the possibility of something happening is so low it has only happened in this world and not in any of the googleplex previous, that makes this world somehow special, because the odds of happening would be 1 in a googleplex. Whether its because this one lasted long enough, or because of any other reason, this being the only world with ascended gods makes it special. Which, because I don't think it is (and the current comic really suggests that is NOT what Rich is driving at), I think needs an answer different from "it's just a 1 in a billion flunk".

And I didn't say anything about it needing to come up in the story, so right back at you with the "You shouldn't argue against things people didn't actually say."

Grey Wolf

I actually think there's a chance this world is special; as others have suggested, it may be the first where mortals were able to develop gates to patch the rifts.

I also don't think the sheer number of dead worlds suggested by the graveyard suggests necessarily that the gods have been getting incrementally better at this; this world could be their best creation by a substantial measure, which would also explain why some of them are so invested in saving it.

I'm not certain that perspective is right, either, but I'm keeping an open mind.

[HalfTangible]

So does that mean Hel's bet was actually a smart one?

The worlds have been lasting longer each iteration which implies larger and larger population. And with that many failures its almost a sure bet this one would fail as well. True she would have no power in this world, but she would definitily rule in the next. In fact, it would take thousands of years to get to the point where she wont rule the next one.

... Oh

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH

The bet was foreshadowing!

Taking the bet wouldn't make any sense at all if Hel didn't know there would be another world where she would have her "winnings"! The conversation as we saw it couldn't possibly have happened unless there were several worlds and the gods all knew it!!

[Resileaf]

Hmm, I do ponder something. If the date we've been given about the setting (1100something) is the age of the world, how does the setting handles creatures that live longer than a thousand years? The outer planes denizen are generally immortal, but they don't live on the Prime, so it's not much of a question that they can survive easily through each world's iteration (although it makes me wonder what they know about the world resets), but creatures such as dragons can live... A thousand and a half, I think (venerable at 1200, srd doesn't tell what their total lifespan is)?
Assuming that the world was created some 1100 years ago, there are dragons alive today that were alive at the world's creation.

Assuming the date did mean how long the world survived, of course.

[ReturnOfTheKing]

Holy SH*T

[Silverraptor]

Oh, sorry. I should have portrayed my position more, my bad.

Anyways, how I understand it, based upon Thor's comment on how each prison of the snarl got better and held it longer for each iteration of world prisons that are created. Going of this comment, it could have gone one of two ways. The first is they keep finding a better way to weave a world together and contain the snarl better, or for my theory, is that to make the prisons better, there are multiple planets created one on top of the other to contain the snarl. In other words, that world in the rift is also containing either the snarl or another planet, which is containing a snarl or another planet (Like what someone said about the n-1). So even with the rift open in the current world, the outer most layer of a multitude of prisons, because the other prisons are still more or less intact, the Snarl hasn't made it's way out of the rift yet.

And that's only if this world everyone is on is the final layer! We were all under the assumption that this was the 2nd world created, and thus massively proven wrong! What if we aren't even on the last layer of prisons. What if there are several more worlds outside of the one we've been following that act as additional layers of security? Like, if a rift were to open up and it's another world looking at the current one that our protagonists are on? That's what going through my head right now...

[JackRackham]

So, is it possible the quest is about to shift from "stop Xykon/Redcloak and don't blow the gate" to "defeat the Snarl?"

[D.One]

I really expect Thor to say, next strip:

a) We must stop the Snarl and put an end to this cycle;

AND/OR

b) explain to Durkon why this iteration is a turning point, why the current world lasted more than the previous (if it indeed did).

[allenw]

This strongly hints that in the past or future, someone is going to stand toe to toe with the Snarl and live long enough to affect the story. Of the physically tough characters on the stage at the moment, I am not expecting Roy to be up to the task. But Kraagor, as dwarf + epic + barbarian + raging, could easily weigh in at more than twice the HP of Roy.

I think you just predicted O-Chul's Last Stand. Seriously.

Whether its because this one lasted long enough, or because of any other reason, this being the only world with ascended gods makes it special. Which, because I don't think it is (and the current comic really suggests that is NOT what Rich is driving at), I think needs an answer different from "it's just a 1 in a billion flunk".

My answer, which I think is consistent with Rich's statements, is that this world is special because it's the one Rich is mostly writing about. Or possibly "Rich is writing about it because it's the special one." So, if Rich wanted to write about the only world in which ascension has occurred, then he did.

Which isn't to say that Rich *did* make that choice. I also like your theory about ascended gods dying with their birth-world.

[Auguries]

Wow. Is all I have to say. I guess when you are immortal facing your only possible means of death, just keep creating to prevent it is all you can do.

Maybe. Or they just got bored. When the act of existing requires no effort, all that is left is entertainment. No wonder Thor drinks...

[Rrmcklin]

There's already a thread to discuss this topic, so why does this thread exist?

[Zerohour]

First off, does the number 192 pop up anywhere in regard to the material plane? I fee like that was something that happened in the comic at some point, so once I saw the second world grave, I expected the massive casualty rate. Maybe not to the same scale, but I was expected something like that.

Thought it popped up when V made the deal with the devils, but I was wrong or it got retconned. Anyone else have an idea where I might have seen that number?


Death is a doorway through which nothing comes back from, in our world. In OotS world, the Snarl may very well serve the same purpose. We don't know what's inside of it, what happens when you;re consumed. For all we know, the Greek Pantheon could be alive and well inside, taking the consumed worlds and building them into something more. Could make of a very post-apocalyptic world setting, with massive upheavals every few centuries as the remnants of another world are integrated into the whole.


Regarding the souls, from what I vaguely recall from the Roy's Dead arc, people (at least in the LG afterlife) continue to ascend until they merge with the fundamental essence of their afterlife, becoming pure Law and Good, or whatever their afterlife is made of. This means that souls have an expiration date, and Hel could get a major power boost in the short term, enough that she can overrule the rest of the Norse Pantheon in the creation of a new world. Basically it would allow her to gerrymander the new world to suit her.

Probably either out of necessity (to maximize their power for world creation) or convenience (keeping the Snarl secret,) the Gods generally wait until all surviving souls ascend before making a new world.


Not sure how ascended gods work, but I get the impression that it's a much rarer event. The gods don't fill mortals in on the whole picture, so the First King of Dwarfs may be the first king, but ascended many worlds ago, and just kept some the details concealed from the rest of them. Dark One would have to be from this world, assuming this is true. Or maybe he ascended a long time ago, and he allows the goblins to suffer now in exchange for concessions later. Maybe somewhere down the line goblins will be the dominant lifeforms. He's immortal, has the time and patience to wait, and in the meantime, he can try to work around it, (use the gates) or speed up the process (unleash the Snarl.)



Random thought: What WOULD happen if they created another Snarl? Would it just be another prison they have to build? Would it merge and empower the other Snarl? Would it attack the original Snarl because it's made of divine will? With all the worlds they've created, I'm kind of curious if they ever thought to look into that. Gods know they've had the time.

[Shoelessgdowar]

I think people are missing something big... at least one of those Gravestones is premature.

[hamishspence]

Hmm, I do ponder something. If the date we've been given about the setting (1100something) is the age of the world, how does the setting handles creatures that live longer than a thousand years? The outer planes denizen are generally immortal, but they don't live on the Prime, so it's not much of a question that they can survive easily through each world's iteration (although it makes me wonder what they know about the world resets), but creatures such as dragons can live... A thousand and a half, I think (venerable at 1200, srd doesn't tell what their total lifespan is)?
Assuming that the world was created some 1100 years ago, there are dragons alive today that were alive at the world's creation.

Assuming the date did mean how long the world survived, of course.

Wouldn't that spell kill everyone of the original target's species?

In our world? Maybe. The OOTS world is not ours, though. It was created fully populated, even with black dragons. So there could be 100 original black dragons who (as V noted) breed slowly over the relatively-short span of time the current world has been in existence, leading to one-quarter of them being wiped out.

I don't know if he's ever said outright that the world was created on day 1 of the Northern Calendar - but that's a strong implication that it is a young world.

Shojo's "A thousand years and more"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html

also fits.

[Ravens_cry]

That's a cold slap of perspective, now ain't it?

[White Blade]

The elves certainly LOOK like they had gods when this started if you look at the Western Continent's map. "Your people up there in your lush forest" and the literal mountain range named, "Goaway". That's a cushy deal and there's no particular reason why. That's not even pointing out that there are plural elven deities, so we could have ascended members from this world and previous ones as well. Other potential ascended in other worlds could include Thrym, Surtr, Thrym, any racial deities venerated by pretty much anyone.

We don't have a googolplex of other worlds. We can see thousands and thousands of worlds, but I think we don't have millions. If the first ascended deities ascended fifty or sixty worlds ago and new deities are rare even in that scope, we'd reasonably have a lot few. If the gods advanced in the creation of worlds by intervals, there's no reason to think that the most recent advancement didn't add hundreds of years to the world's lifespan. So, for example, at some point the rules about discussing the Snarl were laid out - Presumably because, in some or many previous worlds, the gods gave mortals too much information. That rule could be five, fifty, five hundred, or five thousand worlds old. It would have a precipitous effect on world development because it is clear that even the handful of mortals are involved have had major effects on divine policy on this world. It might be that in previous worlds, the gods routinely intervened to stop all ascendant deities and one of the reason why this world survived is that they did not do that.

Ascended deities could also frequently die, if there had been a policy of not telling new members.

[WombleofDarknes]

I'm not sure if this has been suggested already (10 pages of comments is a lot to go through), but is the number of destroyed worlds the ACTUAL reason why this world is inhabited with Stick (rather then realistic looking) Figures?

After so long and so many attempts, the gods may have simplified and streamlined certain designs, to save energy & time.

A clue might be a few panels back in #1135, where Thor shrinks down and "simplifies" a bit.

Just a thought.

[RatElemental]

What I'm getting out of this strip most of all is that the idea that starting over being the best option is finally put to bed. Destroying this world probably wouldn't result in another one where there would be no more rifts, as I'm pretty sure was suggested at some point in the comic.

This world, like all the others, might be inevitably doomed. But this one might also be special. For all we know, this world is the only one in which the mortals managed to fix their own world enough that the snarl couldn't get out. This is the one that might last indefinitely if the gates are restored.

[facw]

Also note that the rifts appeared about 66 years ago. Meaning the OOTS world did made it to over a thousand years before the expiry date kicked in.

So, yep, the Gods are getting slowly better at this. Veeery slowly.

That's assuming that this world started at year 0. There's no reason it had to, it's quite possible that the original inhabitants were created with false memories of a history that never happened. And of course, even in our (hopefully real) world, we don't count the years based on the creation of the universe, the creation of Earth, or the from the emergence of humans.