OOTS #1139 - The Discussion Thread

[nolongeralurker]

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Holy ----!

...And delighted laughter* because, of course, the Giant managed to surprise everyone AGAIN.

(I think I might've been thinking earlier that this wouldn't be a Wham Episode because we were already prepared for a big revelation, but if so, boy was I wrong!)

Also, for what it's worth, unless I missed something, Soon only refers to the current world as "the new world" in the Crayons of Time flashback, not as World 2.0 (though that's the comic title for one of the pages). Yes, of course Soon did think this was only the second world, but still, it's cool that his story is technically correct (though very incomplete, as it turns out, but we were all expecting that).

...And now I'm gonna actually bother to catch up on this thread, as it should be very worth it!!

*I guess that may not seem to be the most appropriate reaction when learning of millions of fictional people's deaths, but I swear I'm not a psychopath!

(Edit: formatting)

[Zonkerbl]

Wow.

That gave me goosebumps.

[HandofShadows]

(jaw hits floor)

Holey &*(*$*^&^(*%).



how, how..... All those worlds and people.......

[Worldsong]

And we know that the Order will have some kind of victory or else the Oracle saying that at least Elan will have a happy ending will not come to pass which is impossible.

In The Wheel of Time they had a suggestion to how having such a prophecy doesn't guarantee a victory for the good guys (in-story at least, the readers obviously know it's going to happen anyway).

Basically the only way to subvert such a prophecy with an accuracy rating of 100% is to have some kind of natural enemy of creation unravel reality, thereby also ruining the threads of fate which would otherwise have made the prophecy come true.

So a prophecy is fully accurate as long as it concerns anything within the system, but the moment something from outside the system (like the Snarl) comes in and destroys the entire system (the world and threads of reality it's woven out of) it's off the rails again.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Oh. My. Gods.

So the party is fighting even more odds than they thought. More than a Million/1...

[Snails]

The second is that you don't need to be locked into only being able to take certain types of actions to be incapable of changing your ways for the better. People seem to do that all the time and we humans are supposed to have full freedom of choice.

Tangent: It is an interesting question whether things like celestials, devils, gods actually possess the same degree of volition as humanoids. The answer is not obvious. Perhaps that is because there are many possible reasonable self-consistent positions here.

[Evergone]

Ok...

So, I was expecting a twist. Something along the lines of, "the whole Snarl-thing happened before, and this world is not actually the world's Second Edition. It's the Third Edition." Because, you know, it's based on Third Edition D&D rules. Heck, it's the 3.5 Edition because the Order of the Scribble papered over some of the cracks.

Something along those lines.

This though...

[The MunchKING]

They depend on the belief of the mortals to exist. Any previous such deities probably died when the souls of the believers got devoured.

Bit of an oversight for the Dark One, I'd say, but that's what you get when you trust the info provided by other Evil deities.

Well he's got the souls of his army-thing to keep him going until the next world if they can sustain him. He's been racking up Goblin souls for a while now, and they breed fast.

[Yana]

I think my hair is going to stay on end for the foreseeable future for... Unrelated reasons.

[hamishspence]

So the party is fighting even more odds than they thought. More than a Million/1...

Or perhaps, exactly a million to one, so a sure thing?

[knag]

Given that we know that:
1) The gods create one world at a time after each failure
2) The Snarl has consumed an uncountable number of worlds
3) The Azure City rift contained a world

I wonder if the Order of the Stick will tell the story of the origin of the multiverse of Material Planes. Right now there is only one Prime Material Plane. But if the Snarl doesn't destroy each world the gods create, but rather consumes it whole, and these worlds continue to exist within the Snarl, then perhaps if it were to be defeated (unraveled?) all the worlds the gods created would be liberated. Perhaps Roy and company are not trying to save the world, but to save all worlds.

[Crisis21]

On the general topic of 'the gods aren't all that good at making worlds to keep the Snarl locked up':

Progress comes in two (general) flavors: breakthrough and incremental.

Breakthrough progress is the giant leaps forwards, the discoveries that alter our understanding of at least one field of knowledge forever. They're among the most celebrated advancements of humanity's history, but they're also the rarest.

Incremental progress is what most people work with. Taking what we already know and making it just a little bit better each time we use it. Take batteries for example: The industry is constantly attempting to make batteries that contain more energy, last longer, and are in general better than previous examples of batteries while remaining the same size. The progress is slow and improvements can often be considered minimal, but over time they add up to something significant.

The Snarl's prison is, as of the latest comic, clearly an example of incremental progress. Each time the gods remake the world, it lasts a little bit longer, the Snarl takes just a bit more time to break free after rifts appear, the Gods get a little bit faster at 'pulling the plug' before the Snarl unmakes all the inhabitants' souls. It's agonizing to think about, but given that the first world lasted 4 years with all souls lost and the current one has lasted at least 1184 with the expectation that (almost) all souls will be able reach an afterlife in the event the Snarl escapes, the gods are getting better at this. Slowly, for certain, but still better.

Also, the longer you spend performing incremental progress, the more likely you are to stumble across a breakthrough. Who knows? Maybe this time there will be a breakthrough in containing the Snarl.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Well he's got the souls of his army-thing to keep him going until the next world if they can sustain him. He's been racking up Goblin souls for a while now, and they breed fast.

It could be, but the bottom line is that there don't seem to be leftover ascended deities from previous worlds, so something stops them from surviving (I think it is well past plausibility that this is the only world where there have been ascensions). I find my hypothesis that "they need living believers to continue to exist" a simple Occam-y explanation, but if you want to offer your own, I'm all ears.

Grey Wolf

[Worldsong]

I wonder if not every god who's part of the current Pantheons was actually present at the beginning?

[Shining Wrath]

It appears that the gods think a world which lasts longer, and contains the Snarl, is better. Even though they can all escape to the Astral Plane if they have any warning (one presumes that changing planes for a god is a Move Action or a Swift Action).

We don't have any in-strip testimony that the Snarl has ever managed to devour a god other than the Eastern Pantheon in the initial attack.

What we don't know is how unique this iteration of the world is. Is the bet a one-off? Is the Dark One new? Or is this a Wheel of Time sort of story where the same actors keep telling the same story over and over, hoping that this time it will be different?

[TARINunit9]

It's easy to forget how long ago the dawn of time really was

[denthor]

It seems funny to me that anyone would know about the gods of Greece (East) if that many worlds were created and they were eradicated in the first one as crayons seem to indicate.

They can not talk about the snarl unless someone knows about it. But .... I am easily confused. Each world had the knowledge.

[ti'esar]

WHAT.

I got nothing else to say.

[Emperor Time]

In The Wheel of Time they had a suggestion to how having such a prophecy doesn't guarantee a victory for the good guys (in-story at least, the readers obviously know it's going to happen anyway).

Basically the only way to subvert such a prophecy with an accuracy rating of 100% is to have some kind of natural enemy of creation unravel reality, thereby also ruining the threads of fate which would otherwise have made the prophecy come true.

So a prophecy is fully accurate as long as it concerns anything within the system, but the moment something from outside the system (like the Snarl) comes in and destroys the entire system (the world and threads of reality it's woven out of) it's off the rails again.

But if that the case then there is a possibility that everything will be destroyed. Of the living, dead and every single god. And if that happens then all that will be left is the Snarl and nothing else.

[gamingfreak10]

I dunno, who says there were only four pantheons in the first world?

The same person that told us there were two worlds i suppose

[Shining Wrath]

It could be, but the bottom line is that there don't seem to be leftover ascended deities from previous worlds, so something stops them from surviving (I think it is well past plausibility that this is the only world where there have been ascensions). I find my hypothesis that "they need living believers to continue to exist" a simple Occam-y explanation, but if you want to offer your own, I'm all ears.

Grey Wolf

Another possibility is that not every god knows how to flee to the astral plane, or that the other gods can somehow throw the ascended deities to the Snarl to buy time to escape.

[Silverraptor]

Wow. Is all I have to say. I guess when you are immortal facing your only possible means of death, just keep creating to prevent it is all you can do.

On a different note, I think we now know why there is a planet in the rift of Azure City now...

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It seems funny to me that anyone would know about the gods of Greece (East) if that many worlds were created and they were eradicated in the first one as crayons seem to indicate.

They can not talk about the snarl unless someone knows about it. But .... I am easily confused. Each world had the knowledge.

People in each world that learn of the Snarl, or the rifts are told the same story: "The first world got et, we lost a pantheon in the process". They simply don't tell about the number of other worlds - that's the bit they keep secret.

Grey Wolf

[Chei]

So, if Thor is shrunk down and simplified right now, how big would these markers actually be relative to the gods that created them? Knee-high? Waist-high? I'm thinking knee, but I'm bad at perspective.

[Nightcanon]

My God! It's full of (dead) stars!

It's gravestones all the way down...

Fans of Doctor Who may also be reminded of the Capaldi-era story Heaven Sent.

[Emanick]

It's gravestones all the way down...

Fans of Doctor Who may also be reminded of the Capaldi-era story Heaven Sent.

That's exactly what I thought of as I kept scrolling down. Here's hoping this story, too, ends with

Spoiler

Show

the kind of spectacular breakthrough that makes all that death worth something.

[Marcotix]

I...ah...wow. Yeah, consider my jaw dropped. Did not see that coming.

What that tells me is that this isn't something they can fix by putting up a new world again. At best, that'd be a temporary solution. What they need is a way to untangle the Snarl once and for all. Someth...

How long are the odds on "The Dark One is actually the Snarl"?

Whatever they were they became a lot shorter.

The snarl is super old and super smart (i'm guessing) it's very likely that the dark one figured out a way to act as a god in some respects.

It wouldn't even surprise me to find out that he invented the goblinoids at some point, and other gods have been running with it.

Good thought!

[Worldsong]

But if that the case then there is a possibility that everything will be destroyed. Of the living, dead and every single god. And if that happens then all that will be left is the Snarl and nothing else.

I was counting the gods as also being outside of the system technically (since they're not created out of reality threads so far as we know) so it'd just be this world getting pulled apart but yeah that's the threat you face when dealing with something which unravels reality.

[knag]

On a different note, I think we now know why there is a planet in the rift of Azure City now...

Care to enlighten us?

[Slingsby]

Genuinely dumbstruck by that splash panel. Even when it was clear what the comic was leading to, I didn't expect it to be so... full...