The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

[TotallyNotEvil]

LA +1 or +1*.

IMO, it getting Trap the Soul as an SLA is not terribly unlike get to Sorc 16. Trap the Soul is a powerful, powerful spell. It's a single target SoD, true, but you can negate SR and raise the DC by 2 relatively easily for normal encounters to assuredly for foreshadowed ones, and this thing will be rocking CHA 36 easy, if not 40 with the appropriate manual if one decided to go all-in.

SR is appropriate against CL 20, DR 15 is a damn nice chunk, the Outisder HD are a treat, and +4 STR, +10 DEX, +8 CON, +8 INT and +8 WIS is nothing to laugh at. Makes you very tough all-around.

Divine Feats are truly excellent, and you have a metric ton of Rebuke attempts to fuel them with due you massive, massive CHA score. And considering CHA is a stat that's the easiest, I feel, to add to things, that's a pretty sweet spot.

I'd be tempted to even pick up a couple of levels in Paladin, or something that gives Divine Grace, just to have saves of "Yes". One could easily be rocking all saves at mid-30s with just a +5 cloak of resistance. Tho really, with all good saves and these stat boosts, one can get to near auto-save levels pretty easily with, say, a Conviction.

[javcs]

LA +1 or +1*.

IMO, it getting Trap the Soul as an SLA is not terribly unlike get to Sorc 16. Trap the Soul is a powerful, powerful spell. It's a single target SoD, true, but you can negate SR and raise the DC by 2 relatively easily for normal encounters to assuredly for foreshadowed ones, and this thing will be rocking CHA 36 easy, if not 40 with the appropriate manual if one decided to go all-in.

SR is appropriate against CL 20, DR 15 is a damn nice chunk, the Outisder HD are a treat, and +4 STR, +10 DEX, +8 CON, +8 INT and +8 WIS is nothing to laugh at. Makes you very tough all-around.

Divine Feats are truly excellent, and you have a metric ton of Rebuke attempts to fuel them with due you massive, massive CHA score. And considering CHA is a stat that's the easiest, I feel, to add to things, that's a pretty sweet spot.

I'd be tempted to even pick up a couple of levels in Paladin, or something that gives Divine Grace, just to have saves of "Yes". One could easily be rocking all saves at mid-30s with just a +5 cloak of resistance. Tho really, with all good saves and these stat boosts, one can get to near auto-save levels pretty easily with, say, a Conviction.

You have only three levels to work with before level 20. If you're LA +0.
At LA +1, you don't get Divine Grace until you're level 20 - if you only take paladin levels. Any other path to Divine Grace would not get there until Epic levels.
It'll take even longer if you want things like Mettle or Evasion.


The Ak'Chazar is good, sure, but it's not really worth the extra +1 LA on top of the 17RHD it already has.

[GreatWyrmGold]

You can use Create Greater Undead to turn any single corpse (not any specific corpse, just a corpse in general) into a shadow, wraith, or spectre, which then can turn any humanoid into more of itself. Because technically, only the first undead is controlled by you (the other ones are controlled by their creator), there's essentially no limit on how much you can control.

Logistical issue: What happens when one of the people you're sending your sire-wraith to drain turns out to be high-level enough to poof it, or literally anything else of the sort happens while it's doing important draining work? Sounds like you'd have an uncontrolled wraith horde on your hands, and that probably wouldn't end well for anyone. Especially not the cat-guy who'd been forcing them to do his bidding.
This sounds like a pretty fundamental flaw of any infinite-minion plan which relies on the single point of failure going out to convert more minions. And if you're commanding the sire-wraith to command its children to command their children to do stuff, I foresee the precision of orders falling drastically by simple Chinese-telephone.

Im going for +0 based on all the arguments. Take or leave the * i dont mind either way, dont wanna be part of that debate.

This is my current position as well. Aside from not wanting to be part of the debate; I'll happily plink at either side of the argument, as long as I don't get sucked in too deep.

Summoned ones don't count, since the poster said the PC was on the demons' home plane.

They might have been talking about exploding demons. Which are a serious problem, even when they aren't on Mars.

I'd be tempted to even pick up a couple of levels in Paladin, or something that gives Divine Grace, just to have saves of "Yes".

Also because the image of a company of undead crusading in the name of all that is good and holy is hilarious.

[rferries]

Logistical issue: What happens when one of the people you're sending your sire-wraith to drain turns out to be high-level enough to poof it, or literally anything else of the sort happens while it's doing important draining work? Sounds like you'd have an uncontrolled wraith horde on your hands, and that probably wouldn't end well for anyone. Especially not the cat-guy who'd been forcing them to do his bidding.
This sounds like a pretty fundamental flaw of any infinite-minion plan which relies on the single point of failure going out to convert more minions. And if you're commanding the sire-wraith to command its children to command their children to do stuff, I foresee the precision of orders falling drastically by simple Chinese-telephone.

As each generation of undead is spawned, the older generations becomes more and more valuable. I imagine each arch-necromancer-lich sends out only the newest generations for conquest, and keeps all the others safely by his side in his stronghold - the eldest are probably almost as valuable as his phylactery.

Makes for a good plot hook though... a daring band of adventurers aim to throw the undead armies into disarray though, by striking at the villain and his undead "generals".

[liquidformat]

That's going to make * pretty meaningless, though.

Lots of monsters have cleric / wizard / druid / sorcerer casting.

Case in point, this silly ruling means we need to go back to any monster that could potentially get 8th level cleric/wizard/sorc spells and put a * because of this spell. I think that is silly. This is an over reaction and inappropriate use of the *.

Summoned ones don't count, since the poster said the PC was on the demons' home plane

I thought they were referring to shadow, wraith, and specter as they specifically need humanoids to make their spawn so the issue is normally a moot point at these levels unless you are specifically aiming to find villages of low level npc humanoids to make this happen. Again this seems like a player issue not a monster issue.

[Nifft]

They might have been talking about exploding demons. Which are a serious problem, even when they aren't on Mars.

Sure, no Balor skeletons. Just gotta make do with Klurichir skeletons. Meh.

Case in point, this silly ruling means we need to go back to any monster that could potentially get 8th level cleric/wizard/sorc spells and put a * because of this spell. I think that is silly. This is an over reaction and inappropriate use of the *.

Agree.

I thought they were referring to shadow, wraith, and specter as they specifically need humanoids to make their spawn so the issue is normally a moot point at these levels unless you are specifically aiming to find villages of low level npc humanoids to make this happen. Again this seems like a player issue not a monster issue.

You can't Wight-pocalypse the Abyss, but you can certainly make good use of your undead creation SLAs.

Since wrecking a setting via Wight-pocalypse is generally bad for a game, and making good use of your SLAs is generally good for a game, I don't see anything objectionable about sending these PCs to Demonia.

In fact it seems like a place where this character could play out his remaining levels without even the most squeamish DM needing to reach for the splat-bat.

[javcs]

In addition to outsiders that have racial death triggers, at levels in the late teens, it is not unreasonable to think that a big bad would make sure his underlings and minions could not be killed and then interrogated with Speak With Dead, be it by heroes or by rival evil factions. Or turned into intelligent undead under their killers' control with the knowledge of their former boss's operations.

Certainly, not everyone would have countermeasures in play, but at least some will. And I'd also expect that many people would want to protect themselves from being turned into undead (especially intelligent undead) and controlled by someone else, and many, if not all, of those protections would be relatively easy to obtain at the levels we are talking about.

--
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At any rate, I not sure a * is really necessary, since spawnpocalypse by proxy is something that any serious opponent shouldn't be too worried about when 9th level spells are in play. There are both bigger problems to deal with and ways to easily deal with spawnpocalypse.
Besides, a spawnpocalypse by proxy would reduce the number and quality of higher tier non-spawn undead you can actually use without worrying about losing all the spawn.

In addition, spawnpocalypse by proxy is a lesser concern, IMO, as it is not something that automatically happens - a player has to choose to do it.

That said, I can understand why someone would be concerned about the potential for such being built in to a character's race.


The more important question is the LA modifier itself, since I suspect most DMs who allow monsters would let a player use an Ak'Chazar if they were assured that the player wouldn't try a spawnpocalypse via proxy.

[Caelestion]

Summoned ones don't count, since the poster said the PC was on the demons' home plane.

It's still unclear whether transformative fiends such as baatezu leave corpses, given that their bodies are reshaped after death into a lower form.

[Nifft]

It's still unclear whether transformative fiends such as baatezu leave corpses, given that their bodies are reshaped after death into a lower form.

What supplement says that (and where)?

Devils canonically seem to leave corpses, since you can pay 20 gp to get the dried, shriveled heart of a Devil (with more than 5 HD) as an optional spell component, per the BoVD optional components section.

[Caelestion]

That was the case in 2nd Edition Planescape. I doubt they ever went into detail for 3rd Edition.

[Nifft]

That was the case in 2nd Edition Planescape. I doubt they ever went into detail for 3rd Edition.

IIRC all fiends stayed dead (and most left a corpse) if you killed them on their home plane in 1e and 2e.

Same was true in 3.5e -- page 18 of FC2, if you're interested.

[Caelestion]

That's a useful reference to remember. Thanks.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Sure, no Balor skeletons. Just gotta make do with Klurichir skeletons. Meh.

Just because I don't think a response is non-nonsensical doesn't mean I think it's good.

[ExLibrisMortis]

IIRC all fiends stayed dead (and most left a corpse) if you killed them on their home plane in 1e and 2e.

Same was true in 3.5e -- page 18 of FC2, if you're interested.

Minor nitpick: FC2 talks about devils only. Demons are "permanently destroyed--both its body and its essence" (FCI 9) when killed inside the Abyss--"destroyed" probably means it's in no condition to be animated (animate dead requires a "mostly intact corpse").

Other outsiders have no specific text describing their remains, so they presumably leave corpses as any living creature.

[Inevitability]

yes hello I am not dead


Votes! The asterisk and value are resolved separately because a number of people had an opinion on one but not the other. I'm assuming people who said +0 without further clarification meant '+0 and no asterisk' with this, rather than '+0 and undecided on the asterisk'.

+0: 11 votes
+1: 9 votes

Asterisk: 7 votes
No asterisk: 10 votes

As can be seen, in both cases the votes were rather close. An interesting trend I noticed was that right after the post was made, most votes were +1, but later on +0 votes became more common (with a number of people even shifting from one to the other). Anyways, +0 without an asterisk it is.

[Inevitability]

Rakshasa, Naztharune

Another rakshasa: this one mostly martial. Let's see if it's as problematic as the Ak'Chazar.

11 outsider RHD with relatively so-so abilities (nothing goes past +10, and most stats are closer to +4), okay speed for a medium biped (40 ft.) and some reasonable defensive abilities in DR 15/good and piercing, SR 21, improved uncanny dodge, and Improved Evasion.

Further notable abilities are 6d6 sneak attack, Change Shape, continuous Detect Thoughts, Shadow Jump (albeit with the hilariously small range of 20 ft./day) and Hide In Plain Sight (the good version, not the one rangers get).

Comparing a 1st-level Naztharune rogue to a full-classed rogue, I'd argue the former outperforms the latter quite clearly. The better saves, speed, HP, and stats are very useful, the Naztharune actually has better sneak attack, and the rogue misses out on HiPS, Change Shape, DR, and SR. The main reason to pick rogue would be some obscure ACF, race-exclusive material, a special ability, or (bwahahahaha) Trap Sense. The two options get a bit more balanced when you consider prestige classes, but even with those I'd argue the Naztharune outperforms rogues at +0.

Considering this, I'll assign +1 LA. Do discuss.

[javcs]

Concur with +0.

Edit: pretty sure the Naztharune ends up behind on some of the key rogue skills, like Disable Device, so you aren't as good at traps and such.

[ViperMagnum357]

I say a strong LA +0. Solid all rounder that keeps apace with a well built Rogue or any other skill monkey; in fact, unless I really wanted a specific prc with difficult requirements, I might actually prefer this rakshasa for a skill monkey dealing precision damage. With +4 Int, you can catch up on the missing skills quickly enough once you start taking actual levels.

[OgresAreCute]

Seems to me like you just get a bunch of bonuses compared to a Rogue and don't lose anything (other than trapfinding, which you get back with a 1-level dip). I don't really know much about Rogue builds though.

I'll put it down as +1 tentatively.

[lord_khaine]

Nothing less than a +2 LA will do in my eyes.
It should very obviously be compared to a rogue. And its strictly superior in almost every manner.
With insane stat boosts, Full BAB. Natural defences. HIPS. Change shape, the list goes on.

[Mystic Muse]

I'm inclined to agree that it should at least be +1, unless you can come up with a really good argument for why you would rather play a straight rogue.

[Inevitability]

It should very obviously be compared to a rogue.

Agreed.

And its strictly superior in almost every manner.

Also agreed (though again, prestige classes even things out a bit).

Nothing less than a +2 LA will do in my eyes.

Disagreed. Rogue is tier 4, the optimization goal is tier 3. If the ideal optimization level was single-classed rogue I'd agree, but with the goal being a step above rogue I don't think +2 is appropriate.

[javcs]

Rogue is a T4(versatility) class, and not exactly the top of T4, either.
The T3(versatility) classes most like the Rogue are usually considered to be Bard and Factotum.

Plus, PRCs. Cannot forget about all the PRC options. A Rogue would have 15 levels of PRCs to work with.


The Naztharune is a solid choice - you're certainly never going to regret running one in its role. It is not, however, an automatic choice for that role.

[No brains]

I think we were talking about rakshasha variants last time (or I was just thinking of this exact monster) when I brought up that opportunity cost probably reduces LA. A rogue could potential be something better than this improvement on a rogue by level 15, but this is only ever going to be an improved rogue.

What are some PRC combos that could compete with this super-rogue? There are also probably some race choices that could affect the balance.

[TiaC]

+0 for me. It's better than a rogue, but not transformatively so. A rogue with good PrCs will probably match it or beat it out. A swordsage is probably about as good.

[Thurbane]

Seems to me like you just get a bunch of bonuses compared to a Rogue and don't lose anything (other than trapfinding, which you get back with a 1-level dip). I don't really know much about Rogue builds though.

I'll put it down as +1 tentatively.

I'm inclined to agree that it should at least be +1, unless you can come up with a really good argument for why you would rather play a straight rogue.

Agreed. Put me down for LA +1 as well.

[ExLibrisMortis]

+0 is fine for the rogue rakshasa.

[liquidformat]

Ok so the best comparison I have to this is a melee rogue4/swashbuckler7 which is still tier four and probably somewhere in the middle lower half even still or rogue4/swashbuckler6/Swordsage1 taking the level of sword sage at 9 which is probably middle middle upper tier 4. Comparatively Naztharune has the same sneak attack as the rogue4/swashbuckler7 or slightly better slightly worse than rogue4/swashbuckler6/Swordsage1 depending on stance; better bab by 1 and 2 respectively, better saves across the board, and similar or slightly better hp due to better con mod but slightly worse hd. In comparison to above melee rogues the Naztharune comes out ahead on skill points and its special abilities give it a noticeable edge over either above builds as a stealth melee rogue that is also a party face.
These above comparison seems like the best comparison point for the Naztharune and there isn't really a great tier 3 alternative. I suppose we could use swordsage as the tier 3 alternative? In which case the Naztharune still comes out ahead across the board.
The other choices for rogue tend to be things like assassin builds ( something like Rogue 5/Assassin 9/Swordsage 1/Unseen Seer 1/Nightsong Enforcer 4), unseen seer builds (Rogue 1/Wizard 5/Unseen Seer 10/Arcane Trickster 4 or Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10/Spellwarped Sniper 5) which sit around tier 3 or perhaps even tier 2 if well optimized or goofy stuff like whisper gnome builds focused on size or kobold builds focused on maxing the number of natural attacks. All which are harder to compare to the Naztharune because the differences in utility. However, just going based off of the functionality of the Naztharune it has enough utility baked into the race that I am comfortable with a +1 though I think it is on the lower side of +1. It still has enough levels to play with that it can do some interesting stuff and go through a number of prcs. Note that most rogue based prcs are based off of skills and or sneak attack rather than other class features so the Naztharune could easily qualify for them.

[unseenmage]

Put me down for +0.
Sure it's better that a big standard rogue. But it's still worse that the target tier.

[Caelestion]

It's just straight-up better than a rogue in almost every department, including HD, BAB and saves. I'd have to assign LA +1.