Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

[factotum]

The part where it tells you to go straight to the next tier of dungeons after two easy levels is a trap. Ignore it completely, do all six easy dungeons, and only then move on.

Which would be nice, but I have no idea of knowing where the other easy-mode dungeons even are until I've played a few characters, and I certainly don't know how to get from one to the other. Suppose I could cheat and use an online map or something, but that seems to be rather against the whole roguelike philosophy.

[Sian]

Which would be nice, but I have no idea of knowing where the other easy-mode dungeons even are until I've played a few characters, and I certainly don't know how to get from one to the other. Suppose I could cheat and use an online map or something, but that seems to be rather against the whole roguelike philosophy.

Given that the world map aren’t procedually generated, and the lore suggests that most commoners would know where at least the three main cities/towns (Zigur, dwarves and enclave less so) are in relation to each other (if less so for the shalore city, but still enough for the general direction compaed to the others)

[Anteros]

Just pay attention to the messages you get when you enter an area. I don't personally think any of the starter areas are all that much harder than the others. Certainly none of them should kill you if you're paying attention regardless of class.

[factotum]

Just pay attention to the messages you get when you enter an area. I don't personally think any of the starter areas are all that much harder than the others. Certainly none of them should kill you if you're paying attention regardless of class.

And they don't, as I clearly said? It's the next tier after the starters that have killed all four of my attempts so far.

[Anteros]

And they don't, as I clearly said? It's the next tier after the starters that have killed all four of my attempts so far.

So explore for the other easy dungeons. As I said, it gives you a message when you enter an area about how easy or hard it is. The encounters on the world map are leveled to you, so there's not much threat to exploring either.

[Knaight]

Which would be nice, but I have no idea of knowing where the other easy-mode dungeons even are until I've played a few characters, and I certainly don't know how to get from one to the other. Suppose I could cheat and use an online map or something, but that seems to be rather against the whole roguelike philosophy.

The world map's pretty small - you can explore it pretty quickly, just be careful about enemy patrols. Plus if you've found the second tier of dungeons you probably have enough information already if you piece it together.

[enderlord99]

Are "rosé" and "bordeaux" rouge-likes? Pardon my French; those were very colorful words.

[tyckspoon]

The world map's pretty small - you can explore it pretty quickly, just be careful about enemy patrols. Plus if you've found the second tier of dungeons you probably have enough information already if you piece it together.

Auto-explore (hotkey z) also works on the world-map; I'll use it when I'm trying to figure out where the random-placement features got put on a particular game or when I'm trying to trigger the non-map-visible dungeons. IIRC it'll pause when you encounter a zone entrance you haven't been in yet or are near a hostile patrol.

Whoa. Now I remember why I struggled so much with ToME. Such a choice paralysis inducing skill tree.

There are still classes in the game that do this to me, and my Steam account reports 500+ hours played. The psychic ones are particularly bad for it - Solipsists and Mindslayers have just wayyy too many possible skill trees, and (at least to me) it's not terribly obvious which ones are meant to be 'primary' trees. For most classes you're fairly good to pick whatever tree has your attacks in it and focus on that + the generic that improves your preferred weapon type; when you can't put more points in your most commonly used attack(s), find the tree that offers a movement skill or a damage shield and put points in that instead. Weird status effect skills and stuff with funky trigger conditons ('when you hit the same target three times you inflict Fear, when a target is Feared you can X and Y..) are usually pretty safe to leave alone until you are satisfied with the way your core skills are working.

[ElFi]

Anyone here ever heard of Tangledeep? I bought it for my Switch the other day because I wanted a new RPG and it seemed fun, and so far it is.

The combination of old-school dungeon crawling mixed with a modern UI is very nice for a gamer like me, though not all parts of the interface are ideal (identifying Elite enemies is a pain, since the only outward indicator before they start throwing around unique abilities is the yellow name font). I've been running a Floramancer, which the game claims is one of the easier classes, and I guess that's true, since there have been times where it feels like I'm playing on autopilot, letting my summoned pets do the work while I sit back and watch. The challenge is starting to ramp up, though, so we'll see.

[zlefin]

I think i'll try out TOME soon, getting tired of the random deaths in ADOM. anything important to know about TOME, or is it pretty self-explanatory/explained in game?

[tyckspoon]

I think i'll try out TOME soon, getting tired of the random deaths in ADOM. anything important to know about TOME, or is it pretty self-explanatory/explained in game?

It's more mouse-friendly than most Roguelikes of this style, although you'll probably still prefer numpad for navigation. Almost every interaction with an object can be done by right-clicking it for a context menu with the relevant options or just by walking into it; you don't need to remember that you [u]se this class of item, [z]ap that one, [i]nvoke the other, [s]hoot this kind of ranged weapon and [t]hrow that one (although if you're playing an archer I usually bind the game's Shoot skill/command to Right Mouse and then take it off my skillbar, so you can just click on the thing you want to shoot at.) There's no hunger/thirst/fatigue system. Everything is based on cooldowns and there are very few situations where the game places you under time pressure, so generally speaking you're encouraged to take your time and go into every new room/situation/etc with all your tools and full resources available (excepting a few classes whose resource is only generated in combat and degrades naturally, in which case you should have the skills you need to build it up ready to go as your first actions.) There's no cursed stuff, it's perfectly safe to just pick up everything you find. Most of it will get junked for cash, but you'll never be screwed just for having collected it or equipping something.

[Gnoman]

I now remember why it is really important to remember what level of the Puppy Cave you're on in ADOM. It is way too easy to fall into the "blast the flanker! What kind of corpse just dropped? Crap." trap.

[Maryring]

There are still classes in the game that do this to me, and my Steam account reports 500+ hours played. The psychic ones are particularly bad for it - Solipsists and Mindslayers have just wayyy too many possible skill trees, and (at least to me) it's not terribly obvious which ones are meant to be 'primary' trees. For most classes you're fairly good to pick whatever tree has your attacks in it and focus on that + the generic that improves your preferred weapon type; when you can't put more points in your most commonly used attack(s), find the tree that offers a movement skill or a damage shield and put points in that instead. Weird status effect skills and stuff with funky trigger conditons ('when you hit the same target three times you inflict Fear, when a target is Feared you can X and Y..) are usually pretty safe to leave alone until you are satisfied with the way your core skills are working.

Yeah. I started up an archmage. I like magic, but this list is just... so overwhelming. Phantasm is clearly something to avoid for now it seems, but everything else? I thought plain Arcane would be smart... but then the starting dungeon has nothing but arcane immune enemies so... I don't know if the game is trolling me or trying to tell me something.

I now remember why it is really important to remember what level of the Puppy Cave you're on in ADOM. It is way too easy to fall into the "blast the flanker! What kind of corpse just dropped? Crap." trap.

I really don't like the Puppy Cave Quest. It's such a noob trap.

[tyckspoon]

Yeah. I started up an archmage. I like magic, but this list is just... so overwhelming. Phantasm is clearly something to avoid for now it seems, but everything else? I thought plain Arcane would be smart... but then the starting dungeon has nothing but arcane immune enemies so... I don't know if the game is trolling me or trying to tell me something.

Game's trolling you, the Archmage special start dungeon is kind of notorious. The special drop from the boss in it is nice, but nothing that will make or break your game, so don't feel too bad about rejecting the starter quest, leaving the town, and just going to one of the traditional start dungeons instead. (That goes for the magic-elf start locations, too. If the game tries to start you in Crystal Caves or the Raloren Camp, just nope on up the stairs and go do Trollmire.) For Archmages, Fire and Lightning both have pretty good backup attacks in their first skill. You probably want to invest in one of them just to have an alternate element/something to cast on cooldown for when your main element doesn't one-shot the enemy (also most of Arcane's spells work a bit weirdly, so it's nice sometimes to have a second straightforward point-and-shoot spell.)

Phantasm is kind of odd, but the "attack" spell in it has some interesting applications (quoted because it doesn't actually do damage until like skill level 4.) It has a ludicrous AoE and it can blind, like a really big Sun infusion, so there's some potential crowd-control/swarm-clearing ability there. Longish cooldown, so you don't want to rely on it as your only spell, but it makes a kind of interesting stunt build. Most of the rest of the tree is stuff you would usually want to leave alone until you have a better setup, yes, or that works better for other caster classes instead of Archmage - Shadowblades can do some interesting things with it.

Archmage in general you probably have about the right idea, you just want a secondary attacking skill. You have the best shields in the game once you can skill up the appropriate trees, but you're ludicrously squishy when you don't have one available. Don't engage anything in melee if you don't have a shield available if you can help it - Phase Door and Teleport are good for this (I prioritize getting Phase Door to level 4 ASAP, since that lets you control the destination area.) At level 10 consider unlocking the Time tree - Time Shield alone is one of the best defensive skills in the game, although it'll significantly delay opening the 'advanced' tree for your preferred primary element, and getting an extra rune slot is always strong competition for those points.

[Thrantar]

Couple notes about Archmages:
If just starting, doesn't have access to the advanced fire or cold trees, they're unlocks.
Heals/Shields can crit.
Don't be afraid to wear heavy armor.

[Maryring]

Is advanced Fire/Ice something that becomes visible later on as a quest unlock or something? Because there's nothing like that on my list of unlockables. I've got Aether, Meta and Temporal as unlock schools only. Similarly, while there may be no shame in using heavy armour, it doesn't seem possible since I need heavy armour skill, and it's not on my list of skills at all. I did get the Silk Current at least, which as far as armour goes seems to be the best option available (though I've no idea what's more valuable between Defense, which it has 12 of, and Armour, which it has 0 of). Even if not for the defense, it's passives are pretty strong. Unsure if the boost in ice school makes it worth at all investing in though. Right now, my skillset looks something like this.

Arcane 4/1/0/0
Fire 1/1/0/0
Earth 1/1/0/0
Water 0/0/0/0
Air 1/0/0/0
Phantasm 0/0/0/0

Shalore 1/0/0/0
Conveyance 4/0/0/0
Divination 0/0/0/0
Aegis 1/0/0/0

Stat points all poured into magic, and willpower when I can't magic.

[tyckspoon]

Is advanced Fire/Ice something that becomes visible later on as a quest unlock or something? Because there's nothing like that on my list of unlockables. I've got Aether, Meta and Temporal as unlock schools only. Similarly, while there may be no shame in using heavy armour, it doesn't seem possible since I need heavy armour skill, and it's not on my list of skills at all. I did get the Silk Current at least, which as far as armour goes seems to be the best option available (though I've no idea what's more valuable between Defense, which it has 12 of, and Armour, which it has 0 of). Even if not for the defense, it's passives are pretty strong. Unsure if the boost in ice school makes it worth at all investing in though. Right now, my skillset looks something like this.

Arcane 4/1/0/0
Fire 1/1/0/0
Earth 1/1/0/0
Water 0/0/0/0
Air 1/0/0/0
Phantasm 0/0/0/0

Shalore 1/0/0/0
Conveyance 4/0/0/0
Divination 0/0/0/0
Aegis 1/0/0/0

Stat points all poured into magic, and willpower when I can't magic.

The 'generic' combat training skills can be purchased in Last Hope from any of the shops there, it's pretty cheap. Don't know why they tax you with that on some characters, to be honest. Pretty much every character wants at least one point in the 'Heavy Armor' training skill, because it unlocks using heavy accessory pieces - helmets, gauntlets, heavy boots.

Yeah, I'd forgotten that the advanced Fire and Cold trees are unlocks - you get them either by doing a ridiculous amount of cumulative Fire/Cold damage (like 10 million or something, but it counts any source of that damage, so even if you just play like a Berserker and hit things with a weapon that has bonus fire damage or does converted fire damage it counts) or with a really rare drop artifact. Alchemist is pretty good for it with the appropriate energy-type infusion on their bombs if you want to deliberately grind it out, but it's a pain to do; you'll get there sooner or later just playing normally with other classes.

Water tree is broadly considered to be not great. Fire + Wildfire is the most straightforward 'I'm gonna kill all the things' Archmage setup, but loses quite a bit without having access to Wildfire yet. Arcane is pretty powerful, although a bit odd to use because after the first level beam spell none of its attacks are straightforward 'blast this fool over here' effects. Without the unlocks for most of the advanced trees I'd probably go.. hmm. Tribeam (max out Flame, Lightning Bolt, Arcane Blast - the fire and arcane ones become beam targeting at high enough level, you always have something coming off cooldown and three elements to work around resists/immunities) plus opening Temporal and Meta trees as unlocks. Temporal has Time Shield, which as I already mentioned is an amazing shield spell, and the rest of it is generally useful if you figure out how. Meta has some fun stuff for letting you cast more faster, which I usually end up not taking because Archmages have sooo many competing choices for unlocks later on.

Silk Current is pretty good for a low-level armor. The boost to skill category mastery is nice, but a bit of a trap effect - there are very few things in the game that scale with that property in a way that makes a huge difference (obviously 1.30 mastery is better than .80, but the difference isn't big enough to justify putting scarce resources or build choices into improving it.) Defense is your 'chance to avoid being hit' stat, Armor is the 'reduces damage taken when hit' stat. Archmages will tend to have really poor armor ratings, try not to get hit.

[Kaptin Keen]

... I have an amulet of life saving - which means I can complete a quest I never even got close to before. So that's interesting. I do feel like my guy goes through an alarming amount of food (he's a troll), but now he also has an eternium 2-handed sword (and can thus get rid of Big Punch).

Trouble is I need to pass through Dwarf Town, and I also happen to have Unholy Aura. Game certainly never makes anything easy for me =)

Edit: I also seem to be unable to teleport. What's that all about now?! oO

[factotum]

Well, that was embarrassing. Tried the trick of going to all the level 1 dungeons to get my character to level 11 before going into any of the Tier 2 ones, and got killed by a collapsing tunnel in the sandworm lair...

[Kaptin Keen]

Same troll, slightly later: My most one-sided defeat of the mummy, what's his name? Ended essentially at max health, having expended nothing - just cut down everything down with my great big eternium 2-hander. +18 to hit, 6d8+18 damage - and it's Wicked, of Lightning, too. Not a bad little weapon.

I won the entire fight on Coward, and didn't even notice.

Why can't I teleport though? Works fine if I activate a teleport trap, but if I cast it myself, I just go nowhere.

Edit: I was attack by a black dragon in the wilderness. And I'm having a Neo moment: Starting to believe. Going to fight it.

And ... OMG ... I 1-shot it.

[Knaight]

Well, that was embarrassing. Tried the trick of going to all the level 1 dungeons to get my character to level 11 before going into any of the Tier 2 ones, and got killed by a collapsing tunnel in the sandworm lair...

That's one of the tier 2 ones, and it can be nasty.

[Maryring]

The 'generic' combat training skills can be purchased in Last Hope from any of the shops there, it's pretty cheap. Don't know why they tax you with that on some characters, to be honest. Pretty much every character wants at least one point in the 'Heavy Armor' training skill, because it unlocks using heavy accessory pieces - helmets, gauntlets, heavy boots.

Yeah, I'd forgotten that the advanced Fire and Cold trees are unlocks - you get them either by doing a ridiculous amount of cumulative Fire/Cold damage (like 10 million or something, but it counts any source of that damage, so even if you just play like a Berserker and hit things with a weapon that has bonus fire damage or does converted fire damage it counts) or with a really rare drop artifact. Alchemist is pretty good for it with the appropriate energy-type infusion on their bombs if you want to deliberately grind it out, but it's a pain to do; you'll get there sooner or later just playing normally with other classes.

Water tree is broadly considered to be not great. Fire + Wildfire is the most straightforward 'I'm gonna kill all the things' Archmage setup, but loses quite a bit without having access to Wildfire yet. Arcane is pretty powerful, although a bit odd to use because after the first level beam spell none of its attacks are straightforward 'blast this fool over here' effects. Without the unlocks for most of the advanced trees I'd probably go.. hmm. Tribeam (max out Flame, Lightning Bolt, Arcane Blast - the fire and arcane ones become beam targeting at high enough level, you always have something coming off cooldown and three elements to work around resists/immunities) plus opening Temporal and Meta trees as unlocks. Temporal has Time Shield, which as I already mentioned is an amazing shield spell, and the rest of it is generally useful if you figure out how. Meta has some fun stuff for letting you cast more faster, which I usually end up not taking because Archmages have sooo many competing choices for unlocks later on.

Silk Current is pretty good for a low-level armor. The boost to skill category mastery is nice, but a bit of a trap effect - there are very few things in the game that scale with that property in a way that makes a huge difference (obviously 1.30 mastery is better than .80, but the difference isn't big enough to justify putting scarce resources or build choices into improving it.) Defense is your 'chance to avoid being hit' stat, Armor is the 'reduces damage taken when hit' stat. Archmages will tend to have really poor armor ratings, try not to get hit.

Yeah. I've gotten Timeshield, Displacement Shield and a Shield Rune going on, and... well on one hand I feel squishy, on the other hand I feel super tanky. Whenever I meet something it'll chunk me for 2/3rds of my life, and then do nothing as I hide behind layers upon layers of shield. With all my shield boosts, Time Shield can shelter almost 1000 HP, or 4x my regular HP. I've got Disruption Shield unlocked as well, but it's hard to activate. If I know a fight is about to happen, I'll doubletap Probability Travel to lower my mana to just above the limit, but even so it seems prone to only block one or two attacks. I have to look into getting a bigger mana pool.

I'm wondering if it'll be worthwhile to invest into Feather Wind. It has a lot of passive defense boosts that might be worthwhile. Especially since I haven't found anything giving Stun resistance yet, and stun is one of the more painful afflictions I've got to deal with.

Also, small rant time. I really don't like the loot style the game goes for. You gain a ton of loot, but most of it is useless to me, and what is useful can be really hard to discern. Not only is it difficult to evaluate if +6 spellpower is better than +7 spell save, but it is also a pain trying to figure out if one item is better than another. Also, I still haven't found anything giving me water-breathing, so no underwater dungeons for me yet.

[factotum]

That's one of the tier 2 ones, and it can be nasty.

I know. I did all the Tier 1s to get my character up in levels before attempting the Tier 2s, and that happened to be the first Tier 2 I tried.

[Thrantar]

When it comes to loot, I find ToME to be very much in the ARPG mold.
Also, when it comes to breathing underwater, anything that makes you pretend to be undead will work as well. (Available in both lanterns and belts, iirc.)

[zlefin]

in adom, are any of the mercenaries in that new town that pops after 8k steps worth hiring? I tried once and the guy died pretty easily, wondering if it's worth looking at them again.

[factotum]

Also, when it comes to breathing underwater, anything that makes you pretend to be undead will work as well. (Available in both lanterns and belts, iirc.)

Does that also work for breathing under sand, because that's the problem I had?

[Anteros]

Does that also work for breathing under sand, because that's the problem I had?

Nope. You basically have to just follow a sandworm until it goes where you want if you want to stay completely safe.

[Thrantar]

Does that also work for breathing under sand, because that's the problem I had?

Undead impersonation items work fine for breathing under sand, since they remove the need to breathe. Note that the sand collapsing on you also does a chunk of physical damage, which might kill you if you're already low or take it multiple times.

[Zalabim]

On the broad category of what I love about ToME, I played a Doombringer through to the end and collected a rather enjoyable combination: A high rank of obliterating smash, a weapon that can be activated to obliterating smash, a chance to obliterating smash on weapon hit, a chance to make an unarmed attack on hit, gloves with a chance to obliterating smash on unarmed attack hit, and "Oblitertating Smash destroys obstacles in its area." No walls were left standing. No enemies either, but the speed I could dig through terrain was terrific.

Is advanced Fire/Ice something that becomes visible later on as a quest unlock or something? Because there's nothing like that on my list of unlockables. I've got Aether, Meta and Temporal as unlock schools only. Similarly, while there may be no shame in using heavy armour, it doesn't seem possible since I need heavy armour skill, and it's not on my list of skills at all. I did get the Silk Current at least, which as far as armour goes seems to be the best option available (though I've no idea what's more valuable between Defense, which it has 12 of, and Armour, which it has 0 of). Even if not for the defense, it's passives are pretty strong. Unsure if the boost in ice school makes it worth at all investing in though. Right now, my skillset looks something like this.

Arcane 4/1/0/0
Fire 1/1/0/0
Earth 1/1/0/0
Water 0/0/0/0
Air 1/0/0/0
Phantasm 0/0/0/0

Shalore 1/0/0/0
Conveyance 4/0/0/0
Divination 0/0/0/0
Aegis 1/0/0/0

Stat points all poured into magic, and willpower when I can't magic.

Defense checks against accuracy to see if attacks (with weapons) miss you. Defense and the three Saves also get checked to see if they reduce the duration of effects that attacks and abilities try to apply to you (but not the damage), but most characters can't get enough of any of them to really help against the effects of the most dangerous enemies. On the other hand, boosting the Power that goes to your kind of abilities is usually helpful.

Opening up the advanced element trees is nice because of some ability synergy between the two trees, but also because there's element specific stats that boost your damage or penetrate resistances (which you may see constantly on magic staves, for example.) So clustering your types of damage into fewer types gives you item options to raise your damage more. Critical chance and multiplier are also strong factors.

No one has mentioned it yet, but I'm a big fan of Pulverizing Augur (which I think is now the tier 1 earth talent). There's also a Stone tree that's added by a special event. Pulverizing Augur has a longer cooldown, but there's sheer joy in instantly blasting away solid walls (as long as they're labeled diggable), shooting enemies on the other side of hallways, and dealing physical damage means it bypasses anti-magic effects. Earth or Stone has another defensive talent that I believe can give 100% or nearly 100% stun resistance if combined with Air's feather wind. There's also an advanced Air-related tree that can be added by a rather obvious event. All-in-all, there are many, many ways to play archmage's offensive trees.

Does that also work for breathing under sand, because that's the problem I had?

I think being undead means you don't breath at all, but water breathing does not help with sand. Just pay attention in case you're using any effects that treat undead differently.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

In DCSS... axes are typically a trap. The only time their bonus triggers is when you have multiple enemies adjacent to you, which is nearly always a very bad situation to be in, and you should be looking for a way out of the situation instead of trying to take advantage of it.

Polearms tend to have lower damage output, but have the advantage of reach, which can be quite useful depending on the circumstances.

Mace class weapons have highest damage ratio, but have no other bonuses. Solid choice for new players.

Giant Clubs are a trap. They can only be wielded by trolls and ogres, who have significant gearing limitations already, and really need a shield in order to have sufficient resists. Yes, they have the highest damage numbers in the game, but that won't help you if something starts blasting away at you before you can close.

Swords in general have riposte attacks, but these generally suck. You need to have successfully evaded an attack in order to have a chance of riposting, so you need a stupidly high evasion. It also doesn't trigger with a block from a shield, which makes shields actively bad for sword wielders, which in general is a bad thing.

Daggers and Quick Blades are generally optimal for stabbers, but don't overlook a good Rapier. But if you don't plan on taking advantage of stabbing mechanics, don't use short blades in general.

Shields can be quite useful, assuming you aren't depending upon sword ripostes. Especially if you can find a Shield with the Resistance or Reflection ego. For races with equipment restrictions, they can become truly vital in fleshing out your resistances and making sure you have your bases covered.