4e Cosmology

[Rex Blunder]

Article

Thoughts:

Feywild: Goofy name, but being able to wander into a fairy dimension has mythological resonance, and should be a better source of adventure than, say, the elemental plane of earth.

The Shadowfell: Also has a basis in fantasy and sci-fi outside of the D&D tradition. For instance, it sounds, from the blurb in the article, sort of like the world from H. G. Wells' "The Plattner Story". I bet you could also find a Lovecraft influence or two.

One plane that is notable by its absence: ether!

[Lord Tataraus]

They only mention the new planes and the changes to the astral sea. The ether plane is not mentioned because it hasn't changed, not that it does not exist.

[kpenguin]

So... fey get their own plane? I'm not quite sure if that's the right decision. The gods might live on Olympos, but the nymphs dwell in the trees and ponds.

[Crazy_Uncle_Doug]

Actually, to me it makes much sense. In old legends, the world of Fae is closely bordered to the Earthly world, but Fae is wholly different. It can be awfully easy to pass from one to the other, but it's soon obvious neither are the same.

I like the idea.

[Fax Celestis]

I think they're stepping away from "happy forest rainbow sunshine fey" and more towards "fey as embodiment of elements and nature."

[Citizen Joe]

I'm a bit upset because we've been tossing around those ideas in one form or another over in the Tears of Blood forum a few months/years back.

[Rex Blunder]

They only mention the new planes and the changes to the astral sea. The ether plane is not mentioned because it hasn't changed, not that it does not exist.

I dunno, I could imagine this being all the planes.

What planes are there in the current cosmology?

The outer planes - these, including the 9 hells, have been moved to the astral planes.
The elemental planes - these have been moved to the Maelstrom or whatever it's called, along with Hades.

Not mentioned are ethereal, positive, and negative (although the feywild and the shadowfell could be the new positive and negative).

[Dausuul]

I swear, the D&D design team is spying on my brain. The Feywild, the Shadowfell, and the Astral Sea are all pretty much identical to concepts I've developed for my homebrew cosmologies. Sooooo much better than the old Wheel.

Hallelujah! A standard cosmology I might actually use in a game!

*lusts after the 4E Manual of the Planes*

[Merlin the Tuna]

Lots of good stuff on the ENWorld thread about this. And it's kind of hilarious to see people popping up and saying "Totally ripped from Exalted." "Man, this is just like Birthright." "Seriously, exactly like ____." It's nice to know that we're tapping into some classical ideas here, even if people sometimes forget that they are classical ideas and not clever ideas that WotC/White Wolf/Green Ronin/etc. came up with.

[Tallis]

I like it. It's more like real world mythology and folk-lore. Doesn't hurt that it's also more like the cosmology I use in my own homebrew. Combining all the elemental planes into one is a new idea for me though. I'll have to think about that one, I might use it, but not sure yet.

[skeeter_dan]

I'm a bit upset because we've been tossing around those ideas in one form or another over in the Tears of Blood forum a few months/years back.

I fail to see why this would be upsetting. They're incorporating ideas from the community...

[Little_Rudo]

Given the fluff on the elves being like fey, I'd bet the elves as PC's are descendants of elves who traveled to the material plane from the Feywild.

All in all, I like these! The Shadowfeel seems to be a nice way to work in 'bring back the dead' spells: Perhaps you can only bring someone back if they're still in the Shadowfell?

[Mewtarthio]

So... fey get their own plane? I'm not quite sure if that's the right decision. The gods might live on Olympos, but the nymphs dwell in the trees and ponds.

Given that Feywild is analogous to our own world, I imagine that there's lots of opportunity for crossover. In fact, you could even say that it's possible to wander between the worlds if you're in an area sufficiently similar to the analogous point in Feywild. Since Feywild has little unnatural construction, the fey in our world would all show up only in wild areas. That gives the fey a definable reason to be so nature loving: Not only are they used to nature in their world, they're also associated with nature because natural areas are where you're most likely to find fey.

[Citizen Joe]

Given the fluff on the elves being like fey, I'd bet the elves as PC's are descendants of elves who traveled to the material plane from the Feywild.

Actually, Feywyld seems like the most logical explanation of where all the elf children are during their 100 years of growing up.

[Kyeudo]

The Shadowfell seems to me to be a combination of the Ethereal Plane and the Plane of Shadow.

I like the new concept for the elemental planes.

[Starsinger]

(although the feywild and the shadowfell could be the new positive and negative).

Maybe not exactly positive vs. negative energy (hopefully those descriptors are gone) but I do think Feywild is the realm of life, growth, and vitality. and Shadowfell is the realm of death, stagnation, and corruption.

[Tren]

I really like the looks of it. I like the idea of paring down some of the outer realms from infinite amorphous masses to something more manageable, while still being suitably enormous. I really like the Feywild, yeah I agree silly name, but the concept is cool and really rings of a lot of celtic and norse mythology. I like the idea of the plane of shadow being more closely associated with the dead, and maybe this means they'll have more clearly defined rules concerning the nature of death and the undead.The elemental planes being one giant conglomerated furnace of creation seems especially cool as well, and having borders where the elements can constantly collide creates all kinds of possibilities.

[Rex Blunder]

A lot of people, here and on the enworld thread, are saying "This is totally like my homebrew". I think that's a good sign - the new cosmology is actually meeting a need. They're making something that a lot of people want.

For instance, D&D never did celtic-style faerie very well. Sure, nymphs were in the monster manual, but there wasn't much sense of a seelie/unseelie court. I, and others, had to homebrew that.

All the planes seem more easily adventured on, now, too. Not only were elemental planes hostile, but they were sterile, too. (The plane of air always bored me. "OK, I've been flying for a while. Now what?") With the combined elemental plane, I can imagine some parts of it having a surface you can walk on (or sail on) - generally more accessibility, and less sameyness.

Ditto for the astral plane. Currently it looks, as I recall, a lot like a silvery version of the Elemental Plane of Air. (At least that 70's spiritualism "silver cord" nonsense is gone in 3e.) But I find the new conception, islands drifting on a silver sea, more evocative. I like the idea that one day, my characters could get a boat and sail it from one island of the gods to another. It's very Lord Dunsany, ("The dream-built ship of the God Yoharneth-Lahei"...)

[Draz74]

I swear, the D&D design team is spying on my brain. The Feywild, the Shadowfell, and the Astral Sea are all pretty much identical to concepts I've developed for my homebrew cosmologies. Sooooo much better than the old Wheel.

Hallelujah! A standard cosmology I might actually use in a game!

Yeah. I'll probably need to make some small adjustments to it, but I might be able to use it in my games almost out-of-the-box.

[Dhavaer]

(At least that 70's spiritualism "silver cord" nonsense is gone in 3e.)

Astral projection still created silver cords.

[BardicDuelist]

I thought I would hate it...but I don't. This actually makes more sense to me than before.

[TheElfLord]

My first thought on reading the article was "Wow, this is a lot like the World of Darkness Cosmology" The Feywild is like the Umbra and the Shadowfell is like the Shadowlands (even similar names). While this isn't a problem per say (unless WW tries to sue, its happened before folks) I hope people don't get the impression that Wizards is creating a brand new cosmology. It may be new for DnD, but the concepts exist in other games.

I'm sad to see the old cosmology go. I liked the great wheel.

[kpenguin]

I disagree with the idea that the fey should have a seperate plane. While this works for a setting based on Celtic myth, a good amount of fey in D&D is based on Greek mythology, where they coexist with humanity in the same world.

[Bosh]

So... fey get their own plane? I'm not quite sure if that's the right decision. The gods might live on Olympos, but the nymphs dwell in the trees and ponds.

Right, but it seems that the Feywild is more drawn from Celtic than Greco/Roman mythology. Basically a lot of the stuff we're seeing is more "lets make D&D versions of classical mythological tropes" rather than "lets keep the idiosyncratic D&D cosmology" and I like.

Given the fluff on the elves being like fey, I'd bet the elves as PC's are descendants of elves who traveled to the material plane from the Feywild.

Or you could do a lot of copy/pasting from the Silmarillion with the Feywild being a less shiny stand-in for the west, fits pretty well.

It's very Lord Dunsany, ("The dream-built ship of the God Yoharneth-Lahei"...)

Or dreamlands Lovecraft (which is very Dunsany-ish). Hmmmm, need some place to stick my Cthulhu-ish critters, a modified maelstorm sort of fits or maybe the mad lands beyond the astral plane...

[Bosh]

I disagree with the idea that the fey should have a seperate plane. While this works for a setting based on Celtic myth, a good amount of fey in D&D is based on Greek mythology, where they coexist with humanity in the same world.

Well D&D has always been more Medieval than Classical and Celtic fey are a lot more popular in fantasy literature than Greek fey, so I think that this change makes sense.

[Renegade Paladin]

I fail to see why this would be upsetting. They're incorporating ideas from the community...

You fail to see why people might be upset at having their work used without credit or compensation? If a company finds someone's work good enough to use, then they should find the person good enough to employ.

But I seriously doubt that's what's happening in this case. Feywild is just Faerie rebranded, and the Shadowfell sounds like a renamed Plane of Shadow. These aren't exactly original ideas.

[The_Snark]

I disagree with the idea that the fey should have a seperate plane. While this works for a setting based on Celtic myth, a good amount of fey in D&D is based on Greek mythology, where they coexist with humanity in the same world.

There's no reason why some fey wouldn't remain on the mortal plane. I prefer this shift towards a more Celtic fey-feeling, myself; this might be the thing I like most about the new edition.

Nymphs and dryads and the like are okay, I suppose, but not terribly interesting. If they have a shift towards a more Sidhe feel, I'd definitely welcome that.

The Shadowfell is almost identical to the current Plane of Shadow; the only difference that leaps out at me is that the spirits of the dead linger there. This isn't a bad thing, I always liked the Plane of Shadow.

Other than that, I like the look of things. It sounds like they kept many of the Great Wheel locations.

And I'm relieved to see we still have Nine Hells. An earlier article mentioned Asmodeus ruling Hell (singuler), and that had me worried.

[Skjaldbakka]

There are now two threads on this same topic: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58093

[kpenguin]

There are now two threads on this same topic: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58093

This thread is specifically targeted at the new cosmology while the other is targeted at the overall change of theme in 4e. They overlap, but I feel they're different enough not to be redundant.

[Kurald Galain]

It feels like they've been reading White Wolf books These do kind of sound like the Garou and the Wraith versions of the Umbra, respectively.

Still, it sounds better and less artificial than the old planar system.