Barbarian vs Frenzied Berserker

[MaxMahem]

What do you guys think about the merits of sticking with Barbarian for 20 levels vs taking Barbarian 10/Frenzied Berserker?

I'm playing a half-orc barbarian in a coming campaign and I'm wondering which rout to go. As a non-human I can't even qualify for Frenzied Berzerker until level 9 (needs 4 feats) at which point I will tantalizingly close to some of the better Barbarian abilities, especially DR 2/- and Greater rage at level 11. Of course is I stay in Barbarian for that I can never hit Frenzied Berserker 10 which has the awesome Supreme Power attack (1:4 trade off w/ THW), and tireless frenzy.

Of course since I can't get tireless rage tireless frenzy isn't that great for me. And if I was to simply stick with barbarian I would get that AND mighty rage as well as more DR and skill points.

I think my eventual plan is Barbarian 12/Frenzied Berserker 8 which gets my most of the good stuff of both. But what do you guys think?

[Dhavaer]

Unless you're playing a solo campaign (and quite likely not even then) you don't want to be taking Frenzied Berserker. Supreme Power Attack isn't worth killing your party for.

[Kyeudo]

Frenzied Berserkers are like atomic bombs. When they go off everything gets leveled.

Barbarians are like guided missiles. When they go off, only the enemy gets leveled.

Its all a matter of how much collateral damage you want to cause.

Frenzied Berserkers are easy enough to control. They can't balance while frenzied, so Grease is a no save you stay put effect.

[Sucrose]

However, it demands that the party accomodate your build, and design tactics specifically to deal with your character. Frenzied Berserker is probably stronger than straight Barb, but talk with your party before entering it.

It has to be okay with everyone, and they'd need ironclad reasons to fight alongside a lunatic who would kill them almost as soon as the enemy.

Edit: As numerous people have pointed out, the method formerly here does not work. I've removed it for the sake of any who might have a short enough attention span to read the corrections.

[Person_Man]

Barb 10/FB 10 is superior to Barb 20 in most cases, but only because a strait Barb is pretty weak. But a Barb 4/Fighter 2/PrC X/PrC Y (not including the FB) is a pretty solid build. There are a ton of different options out there.


Ending the Frenzy isn't a huge deal. There are a bunch of ways to deal with it - Contingency Calm Emotions, Iron Heart Surge, sky high Will Save.

The real problem is that your Frenzy activates by itself when you take damage unless you pass a Will Save = the total damage you've taken that round, and you must Save every time you take damage. So you tend to burn through your Frenzy uses when you don't need them, which wastes many (though not all) of the helpful abilities of the class.

[Mike_Lemmer]

My previous D&D groups killed Frenzied Berserker PCs on sight. It was the only PrC the players themselves banned. You better get your group's permission, and come up with a few airtight ways to control him if he goes nuts. If you can't, just go barbarian, unless you like being beaten by hardcovers after dropping that little surprise at the gaming table.

Honestly, uber-damage with a chance of team-killing? It's like Wizards wanted barbarian players to antagonize the rest of their party.

[OverdrivePrime]

A frenzied berserker isn't that hard to control as long as you've got a bard or a cleric in the party. Even if the frenzied berserker has high enough will saves to shrug off your rage-nullifying spells, at that point they often have enough self control to pull out of a frenzy.


The problem with the Frenzied berserker is that you need a cleric ready with a heal spell (or two... or three sometimes) to bring you up above negative ten hit points by the time your frenzy runs out. And since you're not a full barbarian, your frenzies/rages don't last as long as a full barbarian's rage. If you didn't manage to keep your cleric alive while frenzying, you're most likely going to die from those -200 hit points you've reached during the course of destroying an army of 500 giants in just 9 rounds.

Personally, I favor a falchion with a Frenzied berserker. Crit early, crit often, with less overdamage when you do.

[Hecore]

8 ranks of knowledge(geography) and the endurance feat will allow you to become a Horizon Walker. Take one level of that and pick up Desert Terrain Mastery to become immune to fatigue -- thereby getting a better version of tireless frenzy/fury. It's a d8 class, but it's full BAB and you'd get +2 to your fortitude saves, so the one level dip is a great idea.

[Solo]

8 ranks of knowledge(geography) and the endurance feat will allow you to become a Horizon Walker. Take one level of that and pick up Desert Terrain Mastery to become immune to fatigue -- thereby getting a better version of tireless frenzy/fury. It's a d8 class, but it's full BAB and you'd get +2 to your fortitude saves, so the one level dip is a great idea.

How would you get 8 ranks in K. Geo. if it isn't a class skill? Multiclass into ranger?

[Renegade Paladin]

Avoid frenzied berserker at all costs. In my gaming group (and every one I've been in since the introduction of the class) taking levels in the class is a capital offense for any character.

Straight barbarian isn't too bad. It's not the most powerful thing you can do, but it isn't exactly weak. Actually, the only barbarian PrC I've ever taken is runescarred berserker; that one's all kinds of fun.

[leperkhaun]

Last time my party had a FB, the BBEG payed petty thieves and assassins to try to kill him. They werent expected to live, just set him off. Eventually the king sent his personal guards out to kill the FB.

I highly recommend against it, they are just too easy to set off.

[Edea]

The Friendly Berserker (mercury529)

Iron Heart Surge will be useless against ending a Frenzy; initiating a maneuver to remove a condition from yourself does not equal "attacking the nearest enemy to the best of your ability."

You could just, y'know, remove Frenzy entirely and rename it "Mighty Berserker." Maybe give it one of the rage abilities a character would normally miss because of not taking enough Barbarian levels. Or not.

Most people take the class for the Power Attack options afaik.

[Skjaldbakka]

Reasons not to play a Frenzied Berserker:

1) Suspension of Disbelief
Think about it: What sane party would actually put up with a party member that flips out and kills them every so often?

2) Resource Management
You have no control over how you spend your frenzies per day. If you get hit in a fight, or by a trap, you frenzy, thus spending both your frenzy and at least a 2nd level spell for the party to bring you out of frenzy.

3) Lethality
If a sniper pegs you from far away, or a trap goes off and hits you, you KILL a party member, unless the right PC beats you on initiative to drop you out of frenzy with a calm emotions.


Aside- Can you use Iron Heart Surge in a frenzy? I might be wrong, but doesn't frenzy require that you attack. IHS isn't an attack.

[TheOOB]

I played a frenzied berserker once, I killed five team-mates during my career, but they got better. I also killed the BBEG single handedly....and died at -500 something hp after my deathless frenzy ran out. My party didn't bother raising me that time.

If you can convince your DM to get you a magic item that restrains you on a command word, FB is totally worth it, otherwise it's not worth the risk.

[Rad]

the Righteous Wrath feat (BoED) could be a walkaround if your DM allows it. Main drawbacks are that it is an Exalted feat, with heavy RP requirements, and that most DMs will disallow it because it pretty much defeats the drawback of the FB.
Plus, it does not explicitly mention frenzy.

[Dhavaer]

And since you're not a full barbarian, your frenzies/rages don't last as long as a full barbarian's rage.

Rage duration is based on Consitutition, not Barbarian levels.

[Zincorium]

Merciful weapons are a good deal when fighting things other than undead or constructs.

While the party may get knocked the heck out, there won't be casualties, and as a side benefit you can take enemies prisoner if it comes to it.

[AtomicKitKat]

You have no control over how you spend your frenzies per day.

Yes you do.^3

It's not his best save, but he can avoid spending a Frenzy with a Will save. People talk like having a stone in his shoe will set the guy off.

Rage duration is based on Consitutition, not Barbarian levels.

Barbarian 20 gets +8/+8 on his Rage. Frenzied Barbarian gets +14/+4(or +12/+6, or some similar combination). Always at least 1 round less than the straight Barbarian, without Extend Rage.

[Skjaldbakka]

It's not his best save, but he can avoid spending a Frenzy with a Will save.

Emphasis mine. Barbarian into Frenzied Berserker doesn't exactly give you a spectacular save. I'm talking from experience here. I had a FB in a game I ran, and he rarely had any frenzies left by the time he got to the "Boss Fight".

EDIT- this may have had something to do with the villain being highly intelligent. hit and run tactics excel against frenzied berserkers.

[Spiryt]

8 ranks of knowledge(geography) and the endurance feat will allow you to become a Horizon Walker. Take one level of that and pick up Desert Terrain Mastery to become immune to fatigue -- thereby getting a better version of tireless frenzy/fury. It's a d8 class, but it's full BAB and you'd get +2 to your fortitude saves, so the one level dip is a great idea.

Well, I always though that something like Barbarian1/Ranger 8 (or so) Fren.B could be quite nice.
You get skills, utility spells and things like track. Also you can max Wisdom (maybe in exchange of strenght even? You will anyway have sick amounts of strenght as Frenzied) for better Will save, and also for more Rangers spells (Also really nice spot/listen ec!)

And combo Frenzy + Rage + Leap attack + Rhino's Rush (ranger spell, double charge damage).
Also indeed you can exchage some Ranger levels for Horizon Walker nice stuff.

And, since I don't like to speak mechanically so much - the most important thing is that you will be Ranger/Frenzied Berserker - The Warrior of the Wilderness!

[Saph]

Reasons not to play a Frenzied Berserker:

1) Suspension of Disbelief
Think about it: What sane party would actually put up with a party member that flips out and kills them every so often?

This is really the big one. I mean, seriously, would YOU stay friends with a person who tried to kill you every time he bumped his head?

Aside- Can you use Iron Heart Surge in a frenzy? I might be wrong, but doesn't frenzy require that you attack. IHS isn't an attack.

There's no RAW answer to this, because IHS came out well after the Frenzied Berserker. It comes down to interpretation - a generous DM will allow it, a strict one won't. Personally I wouldn't, for the reason you list - when you're in a frenzy your priority is supposed to be killing everything in sight.

- Saph

[AtomicKitKat]

Emphasis mine. Barbarian into Frenzied Berserker doesn't exactly give you a spectacular save. I'm talking from experience here. I had a FB in a game I ran, and he rarely had any frenzies left by the time he got to the "Boss Fight".

EDIT- this may have had something to do with the villain being highly intelligent. hit and run tactics excel against frenzied berserkers.

Barbarian 10 may not be the most optimal method, but it grants you DR 2/-. That alone is equal to an extra 4 Wisdom/2 1st levels in a strong Will Save class per attack. I'm pretty sure there's other methods as well. Natural Armour is so-so to acquire, doesn't interfere with his Fast Movement, and every point is another 5% less potential damage that you're taking. It does in fact trouble me that people see only the problems(failing to avoid Frenzying) and don't seem to be able to suggest solutions(reducing the incoming damage, blocking it altogether, etc.).

[RoboticSheeple]

this isn't a question you ask a bunch of people on the internet. This is a question you ask your party.
Personally, whenever someone has said to me as a GM that they've wanted to play a FB I've told them that in the even they do frenzy they become an NPC under my control for the duration of the frenzy. That normally stops things, who wants to be a massive tank that never gets to fire the gun themselves?

[OverdrivePrime]

Rage duration is based on Consitutition, not Barbarian levels.

Well, of course. However, a full barbarian gains a greater raging constitution boost over 20 levels than a barbarian 10 / frenzied berserker 10 does.

20th level barbarian in a rage: Strength +8, Constitution +8
10th level barbarian / 10th level frenzied berzerker in a rage & frenzy: Str +14, Constitution +4

A full barbarian gets another two rounds of rage. Not that this compensates for the damage differential, but still.

[Cogwheel]

That, and FBs get an extra attack per round.

[Skjaldbakka]

It does in fact trouble me that people see only the problems(failing to avoid Frenzying) and don't seem to be able to suggest solutions(reducing the incoming damage, blocking it altogether, etc.).

We aren't offering suggestions for playing Frenzied Berserkers for two reasons:

1) Frenzied Berserker optimization threads have already been linked to in this thread that do that very thing.

2) We don't think people should play Frenzied Berserkers. Just play a barbarian, or enter some other barbarian PrC. FB is made of cheese, and not particulary party or game friendly cheese either.

[lord_khaine]

yeah its the sort of stinky cheese that has to be kept under a glas jar away from the other cheese.

[Dausuul]

Edit: If your DM allows it, you have access to Tome of Battle, and you can hold off on entering Frenzied Berserker until level 10, at level 9 you could take a Warblade level and acquire Iron Heart Surge, which you could use to end frenzy prematurely as necessary.

You cannot use Iron Heart Surge to end frenzy. IHS is generally an ineffective counter to anything which controls your actions, because you must take a standard action to use it. Frenzy dictates that you must attack; you can't stop to fool around with Iron Heart Surge, otherwise you could just delay and delay with pointless actions until your frenzy wore off.

[Callos_DeTerran]

2) We don't think people should play Frenzied Berserkers. Just play a barbarian, or enter some other barbarian PrC. FB is made of cheese, and not particulary party or game friendly cheese either.

And yet people will go suggesting Batman wizards and Clericzillas whenever it seems proper.

I personally find nothing wrong with Frenzied Berserker. Sure, it's cheese. But it's dangerous cheese. If you don't watch it closely then it'll stink up the game, but you can do it without killing your party, that village by the river, and an entire forest's worth of friendly woodland critters if you play carefully and smart.

That, and I know my IRL group wouldn't read everything about frenzy so when they'd say falling out of frenzy since all the enemies were dead it'd be priceless to tell them they have to turn on their party members...or that they might do it before getting to the enemy.*

*And even thats not a big deal since my group members sometimes enjoy beating the stuffing out of each other, just to get all the bad karma and what not out of the air.

[Skjaldbakka]

And yet people will go suggesting Batman wizards and Clericzillas whenever it seems proper.

We can't help suggesting "write cleric or wizard on your character sheet and don't be stupid"

They are base classes after all. Heck, wizard has batman written all over it. Something about being an intelligence-based class kinda screams "USE EFFECTIVE SPELLS!!"

The problem doesn't lie with wizard or cleric anyway. It lies with the spells that they have access to.