Sorcerer & Wizard Question

[Ghal Marak]

Okay, my brother asked me a question that I really didn't have an answer to, so I decided that it would best be answered on the board here.

He asks: Okay, say you have two elves. Both of them first level and both have the exact same stats (ie. same skills, same feats, same attributes, ect). However, one is a Sorcerer, the other a Wizard. Which would be better in the long run (up to 20)? How about in the immediate(Lv1)?


Thanks in advance!

[Ulzgoroth]

Wizard, it is widely said, wins in the end. Which may occur as early as level 3, possibly.

Sorcerer wins at first level by a huge margin unless you like calling on esoteric spells that the wizard may have in-book but no sorcerer would ever learn (with no time limit, so the wizard can take a day and prep the exotic spell). More casting, and about as many spells known as the wizard can cast in a day. And longspear proficiency. Take advantage of that, it's powerful (At level 1, where your pitiful BAB hasn't had a chance to make you completely helpless in melee).

[Azerian Kelimon]

A wizard, until you reach the semi high epic levels (say, 40). The extra slots and the versatility ends up crushing the sorc, who won't fare well on a place that requires optimization.

[Dausuul]

Okay, my brother asked me a question that I really didn't have an answer to, so I decided that it would best be answered on the board here.

He asks: Okay, say you have two elves. Both of them first level and both have the exact same stats (ie. same skills, same feats, same attributes, ect). However, one is a Sorcerer, the other a Wizard. Which would be better in the long run (up to 20)? How about in the immediate(Lv1)?


Thanks in advance!

In terms of power, the sorc starts out with an edge due to simple weapon proficiency and superior spells per day. This edge is eroded over time by the wizard's versatility, especially since the wizard can make scrolls for spells that require only occasional use.

Exactly how long it takes the wizard to start outperforming the sorceror really depends on the style of the game. The sorceror's big advantage is spells per day, so if your DM often puts you through gruelling multi-encounter challenges with no chance to rest, the sorc will remain competitive for longer. The sorc will also do better if you often face unexpected and unpredictable challenges, which put the wizard at a disadvantage, since the wizard's strength depends on being able to prepare for something ahead of time.

Still, the wizard's earlier access to higher-level spells will start to tell rapidly against the sorc, and the spells-per-day advantage diminishes as both characters reach the point where they don't really have to worry about running out. Certainly once you start hitting the mid- to upper levels, when spells like teleport and magnificent mansion become available (making it much easier for a wizard to retreat to a place of safety for a night's rest), the wizard leaves the sorc in the dust... although the sorc class remains a very powerful one.

[Kagan]

I recognize that, in the long run, wizards certainly have the capacity to be far more powerful than sorcerers. Seemingly limitless spell access and a healthier spell progression are hard to overcome - throw in the bonus feats (and the ability to quicken spells without taking feats from sourcebooks I don't use), and the picture becomes that much more clear.

That being said, I never play wizards - I'd take a sorcerer any day. The reason for that is simple - as a sorcerer, I exert total control as to the capabilities of my character. The DM has no pull on the process.

I don't like playing a character that requires a steady flow of cash and free time to progress, as those are (to a degree) dependant on the DM's style. If a wizard finds himself nowhere near a library, scrolls, or a reasonable amount of gold, he's not going to reach the level of power that is so often described. To be fair, even if your campaign comes only marginally close to the expected character wealth tables, you'll be perfectly fine - but that's not, in my mind, a sure thing. Also, I really don't like playing a character that has nearly all of his powers and capabilities stored in a book that can be lost, stolen, or destroyed.

I won't use this as a forum to continue the debate between spontaneous and prepared spellcasting, except to state that I enjoy being able to counterspell on the fly with Heighten Spell and Improved Counterspell (::cough:: archmage ::cough::) - it's a bit tougher to manage when you have to prepare your spells ahead of time. Also, you stated that this was a comparison between two hypothetical elves. This wanders into 'favored class' territory, which trends (unfortunately :P) toward wizard - I've always preferred playing a human sorcerer (to make up for the feats that sorcerers for some reason don't get), ranther than an elf sorcerer.

It isn't, in my mind, a matter of 'which has more power'. It's a question of style and preference. Playing a sorcerer entails knowing exactly what your capabilities are, in any given scenario - and being able to engage in those tasks for a much longer period of time before running out of spells. Playing a wizard entails a greater deal of uncertainty, a larger requirement of preparation and prediction, and a bit more potential versatility to balance it out.

Someone had to put in a few words for the sorcerer :D

[brian c]

He asks: Okay, say you have two elves. Both of them first level and both have the exact same stats (ie. same skills, same feats, same attributes, ect). However, one is a Sorcerer, the other a Wizard. Which would be better in the long run (up to 20)? How about in the immediate(Lv1)?

(Emphasis mine)

This may sound like a trivial answer, but exactly as you asked it, it depends what the stats are. If you have high Int you'd be a better wizard, high Cha you'd be a better sorc. If your Int and Cha both aren't so great and you still insist on being one of those two classes, I'd say the extra spells of the sorc would be best.

[Tempest Fennac]

Regarding Kagan's comment about the dangers of Wizards losing their spellbooks, wouldn't it be possible to homebrew a cantrip (or 1st level spell) which could be used to hide the spellbook(s) in an extra-dimentional space for 24 hours or unless the book is summoned again?

[Kurald Galain]

wouldn't it be possible to homebrew a cantrip (or 1st level spell) which could be used to hide the spellbook(s) in an extra-dimentional space for 24 hours or unless the book is summoned again?

There's always Leomund's Secret Chest, and Spell Mastery to boot. But in practice, a decent DM will either not bother with attacking your spellbook, or remove it once as a plot event; constantly screwing with the wizard's spellbook is as lame as having every encounter cast Shatter on the fighter's equipment.

Wizard wins, hands down, although the sorcerer is easier to play. Even at low levels, the advantage in spells-per-day isn't all that great (assuming a specialist wizard), and the limit of spells-known for the sorcerer has always struck me as excessively low.

If you like sorcerers, consider playing a Beguiler, Warmage, or Warlock.

[Tempest Fennac]

Those are options (the problem is that spell mastery only allows you to use a few spells without a spellbook, and Secure Chest is a level 5 spell which requires an expensive focus, which is why I thought a specific cantrip would be a better idea). Regarding which class is better, I'd say that a Sorcerer is better if you want a specialist artillary cannon, but a Wizard is better if you want to be more versatile (it's kind of like comparting a sledgehammer to the face to a Swiss army knife, unless you have a utility-spell focussed Sorcerer who would be useless in combat).

[Jack_Simth]

Depends on the campaign. Different aspects will push it more or less towards one or the other. In no particular order....

A lack of down-time will favor the Sorcerer (Wizard needs time to Scribe into his spellbook and craft spells) while a large amount of down-time favors the Wizard (who can then take extra advantage of Crafting and Scribing).

A lack of predictability will favor the Sorcerer (who will usually take a fairly generic spell list that will be reasonably useful in most/all situations, and who's options don't decrease until the Sorcerer is out of top-tier spells), while a lot of predictability will favor the Wizard (who can tailor his spell list to the upcoming situation).

A high number of encounters per day will favor the Sorcerer (who has 50% more base spell slots, and better spell-slot efficiency) as the Sorcerer can go longer before expending wealth; a low number of encounters per day will favor the Wizard (who's spells per day, after about level two or three, exceed the Sorcerer's spells known).

Low wealth favors the Sorcerer, who isn't particularly equipment-dependent; high-wealth mostly favors the Wizard.

There's others, these are just some of the highlights.

In a four CR-appropriate encounter per day world, with a week of down-time per adventure, with adventures lasting three days (12 encounters), where the DM maintains wealth by level, the Wizard will usually do better than the Sorcerer.

[leperkhaun]

there is the eldritc memory feat (i think thats the name) and you can use a tatto spell book, so unless you got flayed you would always have your spells.

[Kurald Galain]

A high number of encounters per day will favor the Sorcerer (who has 50% more base spell slots,

If that bothers the wizard, he can specialize. At level 5, a specialist wizard has 14 spell slots, compared to 16 for the sorcerer. At level 8, it's 21 vs 26, but at those levels anyone is unlikely to run out of spell slots period.

This, incidentally, is why the Warlock is considered a subpar class: at moderate levels, any caster is unlikely to run out of spells per day, ever - hence it's not really important that the warlock can use his abilities as often as they like.

[kpenguin]

If that bothers the wizard, he can specialize. At level 5, a specialist wizard has 14 spell slots, compared to 16 for the sorcerer. At level 8, it's 21 vs 26, but at those levels anyone is unlikely to run out of spell slots period.

While a wizard is unlikely to run out of spell slots, they are likely to run out of specific spells, unless they put a great deal of redundancies in their prepared spells. A sorcerer can spam his spells over and over again, a wizard can't.

[Kurald Galain]

While a wizard is unlikely to run out of spell slots, they are likely to run out of specific spells, unless they put a great deal of redundancies in their prepared spells. A sorcerer can spam his spells over and over again, a wizard can't.

True, but a wizard can choose to either memorize a lot of different specific spells, or a lot of multi-purpose spells, or the same spell over and over again. The sorcerer doesn't have that choice - since his number of spells known is exceedingly low, he can effectively only take the third option. Warlocks have the same issue; warmages and beguilers don't (which imho makes them more fun than a plain sorc).

[Dausuul]

True, but a wizard can choose to either memorize a lot of different specific spells, or a lot of multi-purpose spells, or the same spell over and over again. The sorcerer doesn't have that choice - since his number of spells known is exceedingly low, he can effectively only take the third option. Warlocks have the same issue; warmages and beguilers don't (which imho makes them more fun than a plain sorc).

It really depends on whether you know in advance what you're going to be fighting. If you can determine that, the wizard completely dominates the sorceror. If not, the sorc is much more competitive.

[Tokiko Mima]

Elf Wizard vs. Elf Sorcerer? The Wizard, because as an elf the Wizard has all the needed weapon proficiencies anyway, and that's the Sorcerer's sole advantage (at least at lower levels.) The Wizard also gains spell levels faster, qualifies for more PrCs, and has metamagic feats for free.

Sorcerer always strikes me as a rather feeble class. It has the least number of class skills, the lowest possible HP, the lowest possible BAB, terrible saves (Will saves are generally only good versus magic spells, whereas the other saves come into play more often), no useful class features, extremely restrictive spells known list, and they base their magic on a stat that is normally dumped by everyone except Paladins and Bards. Spontaneous spell-casting, one more spell/day (over a specialist Wizard) and simple weapons proficiency really aren't worth the tradeoff you have to make versus a Wizard.

Now, they still get the best spell casting list out there, so they are still the second to fourth most powerful Core class despite all that.

[Saph]

If that bothers the wizard, he can specialize. At level 5, a specialist wizard has 14 spell slots, compared to 16 for the sorcerer. At level 8, it's 21 vs 26, but at those levels anyone is unlikely to run out of spell slots period.

This, incidentally, is why the Warlock is considered a subpar class: at moderate levels, any caster is unlikely to run out of spells per day, ever.

It's uncommon, but it does happen. The enchanter/loremaster I'm playing in our Forgotten Realms campaign is level 11 and has 39 spells per day, and I used every single one of them up in yesterday's session.

But that's the unusual case - much more often the problem is running out of high-level spells, not running out of spells period.

- Saph

[Skjaldbakka]

My DMing style tends to make spell conservation an issue. Sure, you could teleport to your hidey hole to rest and get spells back, but the bad guys are making advances while you are taking a nap. The easiest way to balance spellcasters is to chuck the 4 encounters/day model out the window.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Okay, my brother asked me a question that I really didn't have an answer to, so I decided that it would best be answered on the board here.

He asks: Okay, say you have two elves. Both of them first level and both have the exact same stats (ie. same skills, same feats, same attributes, ect). However, one is a Sorcerer, the other a Wizard. Which would be better in the long run (up to 20)? How about in the immediate(Lv1)?


Thanks in advance!

The difference between the two classes is similar to a knife and hammer. The wizard can tailor his spell lists to be very effective against a specific situation or situations. In general it is best for the sorcerer to generalize which makes him effective in most encounters and occassionally very effective in certain encounters. Unfortunately the new Beguiler class is quite a bit more effective than a ypical sorcerer in most situations other than direct damage encounters particularly at lower level games because of their much larger known spell lists and better game mechanics.

It isn't that clear cut since there are several factors that weigh heavily:

First the ability scores which are not listed because they play a large factor in your class selection. Assigning is far better better than random rolling for designing a PC because you get to optimize your PC ability scores to taste.

Say you made average attribute "Rolls" with random generation and ended up with something like St 10, Dex 14 (16 after racial), Con 8 (6 after racial), Int 12, Wis 13, Charisma 15 for an ELF instead of being able to "Assign" your ability scores.

In this case I'd probably choose another race besides elf because of the racial penalties for an elf on top of your attribute rolling. For an elf theme maybe a Half Elf Battle Sorcerer for the D8 and no ASF in light armor to compensate for that low constitution score although a human would be nice.

Now if Intelligence 12 and Charisma 15 were reversed I'd go Beguiler then dip into wizard as a Specialist and go Ultimate Magus using the Beguiler side to fuel metamagic for the wizard specialist side normally and probably bar the schools of Enchantment and Illusion since the Beguiler side grants you decent access to them.

Second feats wouldn't be the same because of class selection particularly with the variants available in game (Even sticking to Core rules only the wizard PC would pick up a free Scribe Scroll feat). Usually the PC who goes first wins the encounter so at "Low levels" with "All Things Being Equal" level and ability scorewise. The PC with a Hummingbird familiar who takes the Improved Initiative feat should win most encounters.

Third campaign magic availability and wealth. The more there is the more it favors the wizard class. The more limited it is the more it favors the Sorcerer and Beguiler classes (particularly Kobold sorcerers who can take the ritual at a cost of 1 hit point for normal spellcasting).

Fourth the player. His knowledge, experience and his playing style. A really good wizard PC requires a lot more recordkeeping than a sorcerer and being very familiar a lot more spells and familiar with quite a few more. A sorcerer generally only needs to become very familiar with his more or less fixed known spell list.

A vetran player who is very familiar with the rules and has access to numerous source books and standard wealth should be able to defeat most encounters that would defeat a level 20 wizard played by a novice while using a sorcerer 20 with limited known spells. Along those lines a level 20 sorcerer with a poorly chosen known spell selection and a player unfamiliar with game or the capabilites of the PC could be pretty ineffective in game.

In general the level 20 sorcerer is easier to play than the level 20 wizard as there are fewer spells the player needs to be familiar with.

After all that is said and done using core rules with standard wealth guidelines and two equally knowledeable players in a single encounter with 25 point buy for the primary spellcasting ability having the highest attribute.

After level 5 the wizard PC generally has the edge in most single encounters when he is at 100% because he could choose to maximize his spellcassting options initially by memorizing as many different spells as possible. This strategy along with a few pearls of power allows him to emulate a sorcerer with more spellcasting options.

After the first encounter of the day which should have drained 25% of the spellcasting options of a wizard the sorcerer starts gaining an edge because he still has all his known spells for spellcasting options and usually has situationally useful spells for any encounter unless very specialized. After the second encounter which should have drained 50% of the wizards spells things look even better for the sorcerer. After the third which should have drained 75% of the wizard's spells thing are looking best for the sorcerer in most encounters.

[BardicDuelist]

I think at low levels, the sorcerer is better because more spells is better, but at higher levels, gaining higher level spells faster and the fact that you can rest as often as you want (usually), means that a wizard has the edge.

[Rad]

I think at low levels, the sorcerer is better because more spells is better, but at higher levels, gaining higher level spells faster and the fact that you can rest as often as you want (usually), means that a wizard has the edge.

At lower levels the sorcerer is worse because he gets spell levels later. One might think that he has an advantage at levels 1, 2 and 4...

[Dr. Weasel]

Yeah. Sorcerers rule the even levels.

Wizards just rule even more on the odd ones.

[goat]

I've been thinking about this (while watching House of flying daggers (which incidently is EXACTLY how I see the master thrower class)) and I'm really not sure why a sorcerer only gets 2+int skills a level.

With the core classes, skill points per class type generally makes some (fluff-wise) sense.

For 2+int classes you have fighter, wizard, cleric & paladin (and the sorc). All of these are classes who spend a lot of time in training to enhance their abilities and would have little time for learning external skills.

At 4+, you get Barbarians and Druids. Comparable to Fighters and Clerics, only without the strictness, and with more natural zeal, allowing more time away from training to learn skills. You also get monks, which, well, makes some sort of sense I suppose. Time not spent attaining one-ness with the universe via physical perfection can instead be spent learning how to make a good suit of full plate armour you'd never wear or learning to dance...

At 6+ you get Rangers and Bards, classes that have some innate, learnt powers, but use a lot of skills as part of their core role, making skills a vital part of the archetype.

And at 8+, you of course get Rogues, for whom skills make up the core of their class, and are a vital part of the rogue fluff.


My question therefore is, why should sorcs only get 2+ skill points? Their magic is supposed to come naturally rather than by learning, and yet they get given very little "time" to learn spells per level. Can anyone give me a good reason (mechanical or fluff-wise) why sorcerers shouldn't get a hefty boost to their class skills and available skill list?

[Lex-Kat]

I have a question.

How many spells/round can a dual-class Sorcerer/Wizard cast?

My friend says that he read somewhere (he doesn't remember where) that a Sorcerer casts spells as if they were "Quickened". So as a Sorcerer/Wizard, he should be allowed to cast 2 spells/round.

Now this doesn't make any sense to me, as a single-class Sorcerer can only cast 1 spell/round, but I told him I'd look it up. So here I am, essentially asking a stupid question that I'm sure I know the answers to.

Also, he mentioned that a Sorcerer can't take Meta-Magic Feats. If that's true, why not? Why did they so constrain the Sorcerer?

[Kaelik]

I have a question.

How many spells/round can a dual-class Sorcerer/Wizard cast?

My friend says that he read somewhere (he doesn't remember where) that a Sorcerer casts spells as if they were "Quickened". So as a Sorcerer/Wizard, he should be allowed to cast 2 spells/round.

Now this doesn't make any sense to me, as a single-class Sorcerer can only cast 1 spell/round, but I told him I'd look it up. So here I am, essentially asking a stupid question that I'm sure I know the answers to.

Also, he mentioned that a Sorcerer can't take Meta-Magic Feats. If that's true, why not? Why did they so constrain the Sorcerer?

Well lets see. First of all, Dual classing does not exist. Sorcerer spells are not quickened. And Sorcerers can take metamagic feats.

Sorcerer spells are still a standard action. If a Sorcerer takes metamagic feats then in casting them he must take a full round action instead of a standard action. Unless he takes a feat from a splatbook that allows him to cast them as a standard action. There are also Sudden Metamagic Feats that he could take, these allow him to add them on at without lengthing casting time or increasing spell level, but these are limited in their uses per day.

[Dr. Weasel]

My friend says that he read somewhere (he doesn't remember where) that a Sorcerer casts spells as if they were "Quickened". So as a Sorcerer/Wizard, he should be allowed to cast 2 spells/round.

Um... Wrong. In the Core rules a Sorcerer is not even allowed to Quicken spells. The PHB 2 and the Complete Mage allow Sorcerers to use it.

A level Sorcerer1/Wizard3/Cleric1/Ruby Knight Vindicator7 could crank out three spells in a round if they use very specific spells (Such as Wraithstrike, Featherfall, Something else). This is basically a Cleric Build, though, and it actually gets worse by mixing Sorcerer and Wizard into it.

A Wizard 5/Sorcerer 1/Swiftblade 9 can cast three spells per round, but again, it's a wizard build; it would get ust as many spells without the Sorcerer level.

The Timestop spell lets you cast 2d4+2 spells in a round (half of them quickened)

The Sorcerer/Wizard Combination doesn't actually help you in any of these set-ups. Each class is perfectly able to do these on their own, the other class just happens to be there.

[Katasi]

I've been thinking about this (while watching House of flying daggers (which incidently is EXACTLY how I see the master thrower class)) and I'm really not sure why a sorcerer only gets 2+int skills a level.

With the core classes, skill points per class type generally makes some (fluff-wise) sense.

For 2+int classes you have fighter, wizard, cleric & paladin (and the sorc). All of these are classes who spend a lot of time in training to enhance their abilities and would have little time for learning external skills.

At 4+, you get Barbarians and Druids. Comparable to Fighters and Clerics, only without the strictness, and with more natural zeal, allowing more time away from training to learn skills. You also get monks, which, well, makes some sort of sense I suppose. Time not spent attaining one-ness with the universe via physical perfection can instead be spent learning how to make a good suit of full plate armour you'd never wear or learning to dance...

At 6+ you get Rangers and Bards, classes that have some innate, learnt powers, but use a lot of skills as part of their core role, making skills a vital part of the archetype.

And at 8+, you of course get Rogues, for whom skills make up the core of their class, and are a vital part of the rogue fluff.


My question therefore is, why should sorcs only get 2+ skill points? Their magic is supposed to come naturally rather than by learning, and yet they get given very little "time" to learn spells per level. Can anyone give me a good reason (mechanical or fluff-wise) why sorcerers shouldn't get a hefty boost to their class skills and available skill list?

You know, I have REALLY wondered this myself. I think sorcs should get 4+, being full casters, but I could see arguments for 6+ as well [full casting with no class features besides that and a familiar could be considered on par with a bard's 6 spell levels and amount of class features.]

[CASTLEMIKE]

You know, I have REALLY wondered this myself. I think sorcs should get 4+, being full casters, but I could see arguments for 6+ as well [full casting with no class features besides that and a familiar could be considered on par with a bard's 6 spell levels and amount of class features.]

I like the Sorcerer class. It's a fun class which could be a lot more enjoyable to play with a few mechanics. You should lose something for PRCing. I favor D6, 4 - 6 skill points, a few more feats or specials and known spells as a Favored Soul. It's a shame the primary spontaneous caster class does it so poorly in comparison to other spontaneous casters.

Look what the Favored Soul gets in comparison.

The Variant Spellcaster is a lot better with the extra feats and access to all spell lists.

The Beguiler is a lot better for a spontaneous caster normally unless you want to play a blaster as many of their known spells make the Top 10 favored spells of most popular sorcerer spells.

Consider what a Sorcerer loses to play a Battle Sorcerer.

Consider what a Beguiler gets compared to a standard Sorcerer or Battle Sorcerer: D6, 6 skill points + Intelligence as primary casting ability for even more skill points, No ASF in light armor, Lots of Known Spells (Many quite useful particularly at low levels like Color Spray and Sleep) and lots of specials for not being a blaster. Now mix it up with a Specialist Mage, the Ultimate Magus PRC with the Practiced Spellcaster feat and you have the option to blast.

[Katasi]

I like the Sorcerer class. It's a fun class which could be a lot more enjoyable to play with a few mechanics. You should lose something for PRCing. I favor D6, 4 - 6 skill points, a few more feats or specials and known spells as a Favored Soul. It's a shame the primary spontaneous caster class does it so poorly in comparison to other spontaneous casters.

Look what the Favored Soul gets in comparison.

The Variant Spellcaster is a lot better with the extra feats and access to all spell lists.

The Beguiler is a lot better for a spontaneous caster normally unless you want to play a blaster as many of their known spells make the Top 10 favored spells of most popular sorcerer spells.

Consider what a Sorcerer loses to play a Battle Sorcerer.

Consider what a Beguiler gets compared to a standard Sorcerer or Battle Sorcerer: D6, 6 skill points + Intelligence as primary casting ability for even more skill points, No ASF in light armor, Lots of Known Spells (Many quite useful particularly at low levels like Color Spray and Sleep) and lots of specials for not being a blaster. Now mix it up with a Specialist Mage, the Ultimate Magus PRC with the Practiced Spellcaster feat and you have the option to blast.

I like the sorcerer as well. I agree though that it needs something extra. But not to much or it'll outdo any other class. If I had to fix the sorcerer, I'd give it + INT skill point, d6, and possible and additional +1 spell known of each level. Or possible make the spells known that's given and have additionals based on stats [not cha, prolly either int or con.]