Monk damage; yet another fix

[TGWG]

part of being a monk is being able to use weapons. (needs corrections)

Part of being a monk is being able to use weapons EFECTIVELY. Because think about it. Just because people are proficient with a weapon doesn't mean that they're good with them. It could be be that they don't have the stats to use the weapon efficiently, or because they haven't gotten proper training with the weapon. Monks have extensive training with certain weapons and should be much beter at using them then people who are just proficient. bottom line is down below.


FIX #1; while using a weapon, add the monk's unarmed damage to the weapon's damage
Fix #2; while using a weapon, add the monk's unarmed attack bonus to the weapon's attack bonus.
Fix # 3; the monk has 3 five foot steps that he can use as a non-action anywhere in is turn, instead of just one five foot step.

[sikyon]

What if the monk likes fighting unarmed?

[TGWG]

Fix number two: treat his arms/feet/watev like regular weapons that can be enhanced through meditation (and money)

EX: +3 frost fist

[Miraqariftsky]

Aye! Why in blazes is it that there isn't a monk variant that could chanel Ki more effectively? Like, instead of ONLY getting past CERTAIN kinds of damage reduction, why not, as the monk levels, she can get bonuses be it on attacks, damage or skill checks when she uses her Ki?

[TK-Squared]

Fix number two: treat his arms/feet/watev like regular weapons that can be enhanced through meditation (and money)

EX: +3 frost fist

We call this a Kensai.

[Darrin]

We call this a Kensai.

Yes, and they made the same mistake with that PrC that they did with the Monk: giving a pimarily melee class a mediocre BAB. Trying to fix the Monk's poor damage output before you fix their to-hit problems is a little like trying to fix the hole in the bottom of a boat after it sinks.

[TGWG]

Fix #3; while using a weapon, add the monk's attack bonus from his unarmed strike to the weapon to attack bonus. this includes enhancement bonuses, moral bonuses, ect

so now the monk gains double bonuses to attack from bard songs, items, and spells

EX:
unarmed strke (+7/+2)(1d10+1)
+3 frost nunchaku (+10/+5)(1d6 +1, 1d6)

real damage and attack (+17/+15)(1d10+1d6+2, 1d6)

too good?

Fix #4: the monk has 3 five foot steps that he can use as a non-action during his turn

let's add a little combat manuverability to the monk class

[WhiteHarness]

Wait, you're wanting to "fix" things so that the monk does more damage? No thanks. He already does more damage than is reasonable for somebody fighting with bare hands and feet. Fighting without weapons should never be as good as fighting with weapons. That just doesn't make sense on any level.

Monks should not do more than 1d3 plus a handful of modest bonuses.

[TGWG]

do you have any idea how powerful a shoalin monk can be? it's not just myth that they can bring down a tree with just there fist, and if you don't believe me just take a look at all those stonebreaking martial arts competitions.

and also i'm not increasing monk damage without weapons, i'm increasing monk damage and attack with Weapons

[truemane]

Wait, you're wanting to "fix" things so that the monk does more damage? No thanks. He already does more damage than is reasonable for somebody fighting with bare hands and feet. Fighting without weapons should never be as good as fighting with weapons. That just doesn't make sense on any level.

Monks should not do more than 1d3 plus a handful of modest bonuses.

That may be technically "true" but it misses the point entirely. The discussion on the board isn't Whether or not the Monk should be discontinued due to poor realism. The argument is, there is a Monk, and the Monk's hallmark is the ability to compete adequately without weapons and armour. So how do we make it work?

If you want to discuss reality as it impacts on fantasy archtypes, start another thread.

[Kellus]

After reading some of the stuff on this thread, I've made a re-done monk. Feel free to take a look and comment. It's sort of a combination monk-bard-factotum, but I think it works pretty well.

[Shatteredtower]

He already does more damage than is reasonable for somebody fighting with bare hands and feet.

Without magical boosts, a 20th level monk isn't doing enough damage with a strike to consistently kill a 1st level commoner outright, let alone a warrior.

It's nonsense to talk about what an unarmed strike should reasonably able to do when we're dealing with people who can withstand being trampled by elephants or struck by a falling 16 ton weight without being in the least slowed down by their injuries.

Monks should not do more than 1d3 plus a handful of modest bonuses.

People are looking for balance, not bias. Your argument would mean that a barbarian or rogue, especially the latter, can best them for unarmed damage, even without taking the Improved Unarmed Strike feat. There was never anything wrong with increasing the monk's unarmed damage.

Having said that, I'll agree that it was wrong for them to be no more effective with their other weapons. I'd have little issue with unarmed strike capping at 1d6 if monks had a way to perform their flurry of strikes while moving. I'd prefer they were scoring a little higher with all of their weapons, but it's a starting point.

[TO_Incognito]

Wait, you're wanting to "fix" things so that the monk does more damage? No thanks. He already does more damage than is reasonable for somebody fighting with bare hands and feet. Fighting without weapons should never be as good as fighting with weapons. That just doesn't make sense on any level.

Monks should not do more than 1d3 plus a handful of modest bonuses.

In the context of a world in which Ki exist, it makes perfect sense, and in the context of a roleplaying game in which every character should be effective, it not only makes sense, but is absolutely essential.

[TGWG]

After reading some of the stuff on this thread, I've made a re-done monk. Feel free to take a look and comment. It's sort of a combination monk-bard-factotum, but I think it works pretty well.

I've looked at your fix and the blitz idea is intriguing, I was only just toying with an idea like that, but you must of been thinking about that a lot longer then me. we just need to change the name (seriously it's a terrible name for a monk abbility)

Having said that, I'll agree that it was wrong for them to be no more effective with their other weapons. I'd have little issue with unarmed strike capping at 1d6 if monks had a way to perform their flurry of strikes while moving. I'd prefer they were scoring a little higher with all of their weapons, but it's a starting point.

Fix # 3, the monk's three five foot steps should take care of that, but should we increase it to four five foot steps?

and you WhiteHarness

Monks should not do more than 1d3 plus a handful of modest bonuses.

where did you get an idea like that. these are trained warriors who bring their bodies to the limits. WIth or without ki their unarmed damage should be a lot higher than 1d3. and as proof here and here and especialy HERE. these are normal people who have trained for competitions, not fully trained shoalin monks. moreover this is a world without ki, they were able to to this without the assistence of any mystical inner force. think of how that stacks.

[Talya]

Wait, you're wanting to "fix" things so that the monk does more damage? No thanks. He already does more damage than is reasonable for somebody fighting with bare hands and feet. Fighting without weapons should never be as good as fighting with weapons. That just doesn't make sense on any level.

Monks should not do more than 1d3 plus a handful of modest bonuses.

I'll never understand why people ignore history and reality to denigrate unarmed combat when unarmed Shaolin monks took on armies with success.

[TGWG]

I'll never understand why people ignore history and reality to denigrate unarmed combat when unarmed Shaolin monks took on armies with success.

because people tend to disregard the unfamiliar as nothing more than fantasies? Because they refuse to believe that a well trained human body is capable of doing remarkable things when their own flabby bodies are unfit and incapable of doing the same things?

don't know. some people are too narrow minded and skeptical to see the reality of the world. In a funny way they disregard reality as fantasy and their own fantasy as reality. kind of ironic isn't it.

[bugsysservant]

FIX #1; while using a weapon, add the monk's unarmed damage to the weapon's damage

*cough cough shurikens cough*

[TGWG]

too good? *scratch head*

[WhiteHarness]

I'll never understand why people ignore history and reality to denigrate unarmed combat when unarmed Shaolin monks took on armies with success.

You can't be serious.

Prove it. Show me the primary source documentation that demonstrates shaolin monks "taking on armies with success"while unarmed. A cursory scan of wikipedia shows me that they did engage in military action, but their successes nearly always show them allied with other troops and often indicate that the monks themselves were armed. Also, they seem to have lost, badly, on several occasions, even having their temple destroyed. There exists no evidence for them "taking on armies with success" while unarmed. Frankly, their military track record doesn't look as sterling as their fanboys want to believe.

I'll never understand why people ignore history and reality to buy into pop-culture Asiaphilia.

do you have any idea how powerful a shoalin monk can be?

Yes. They can be exactly as powerful as any other human who attains a high level of accomplishment in any martial discipline. Which is to say, no, they can't knock down trees with one hit, take on armies single-handed, etc. They are bound by the same physical limitations as the rest of humanity.

Why are there so many credulous people in the world, who seem eager to believe that things like "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" represent reality?

[Arakune]

I was just wondering: a monk can use a gauntlet as a weapon and still retain his improved damage output? If so, what prevent the monk using a +5 holy flaming undead-bane gauntlet of speed and retaining his improved damage output?

I mean, what's the problem? It's not every day you can have a 2d10+str mod weapon with all that neat powers. If you can't have it, then the only fix should giving the monk access to this beauty.

[Dullyanna]

Don't have any official verification on hand, but I'm sure one of their major temples was burned down in the past.

Staying on topic, though: Monks won't be fixed just by increasing their damage output. Fighters, barbarians, and rangers are available for that. They should, at the very least, be able to move while flurrying (A la the Dervish PrC). And make them capable of something besides twiddling their thumbs when up against things that move/fly around quickly. Not that all that would really, truly fix 'em.

Edit: Yeah, gauntlets (Maybe spiked gauntlets, as well) should be allowed. That's just logical... wait, logic... in DnD... Hah! Cute...

[MeklorIlavator]

Why are there so many credulous people in the world, who seem eager to believe that things like "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" represent reality?

Why are there so many credulous people who think DnD represent reality?

This is a world with giant, color coded, ice/fire/cold(yes, you heard me right)/acid-breathing reptiles who are smarter than you plus people who can tell the laws of physics to shut up and sit down. So why are you complaining that making the monk effective is unrealistic. The game itself is unrealistic.

[Logic]

Fix # 3; the monk has 3 five foot steps that he can use as a non-action anywhere in is turn, instead of just one five foot step.

Not this, because a monk would effectively get Spring Attack for free, but better.

[WhiteHarness]

So why are you complaining that making the monk effective is unrealistic. The game itself is unrealistic.

In my last post, I wasn't addressing the realism of the game's rules; I was dealing with a pile of historical misinformation being spread around. I just can't let that slide.

[slexlollar89]

the "Blitz" ability is called such because of the charatcer from Final Fantasy6, called Sabin who was effectively a monk... and a very cool and powerful charatcer (also one of my favs ).

One metho to fix the Monk (which my old DM made me think of, thanks man if you're reading) is to create a Ki pool, like the ninja, and create some abilities that the monk can use, while also taking away the slowfall, ki power, and bonus feats the monk normally receives and giving them full BAB.

Instead, the monk may spend Ki points to temporarily gain a feat, DR, slowfall (#ft/point[s]), etc.

This is just an interesting idea I recently began toying with, and fits with the rest of the Ki based classes like the ninja and kensai.

[Guy_Whozevl]

the "Blitz" ability is called such because of the charatcer from Final Fantasy6, called Sabin who was effectively a monk... and a very cool and powerful charatcer (also one of my favs ).

One metho to fix the Monk (which my old DM made me think of, thanks man if you're reading) is to create a Ki pool, like the ninja, and create some abilities that the monk can use, while also taking away the slowfall, ki power, and bonus feats the monk normally receives and giving them full BAB.

Instead, the monk may spend Ki points to temporarily gain a feat, DR, slowfall (#ft/point[s]), etc.

This is just an interesting idea I recently began toying with, and fits with the rest of the Ki based classes like the ninja and kensai.

Video games and D&D don't alwasys translate properly. Heck, the monk itself was probably WotC's attempt to make some kung-fu character based of Bruce Lee and look where that's got them.
I do however agree with the improvement of Ki abilities as a whole. PHBII tried to do something like that with Fiery Fist and Ki Blast, but the Fist (and its Fiery Shield counterpart) just sucked. Ki Blast, on the other hand, was a cool concept, but used up 2 Stunning Fist attempts a pop and had non-scaling damage (3d6). The Ki abilites should be more versatile, but not like DBZ or anything. That would be just wrong...

[lord_khaine]

i have allways belived letting a monk use light armor like a swordsage would be enough.

[TGWG]

Not this, because a monk would effectively get Spring Attack for free, but better.

why not. the monk is already drastically underpowered already. why not give him an abbility that sets him apart?

[slexlollar89]

thats the thing, with a Ki pool, you can get many different feats depending on the amout of Ki you have and the feat list that goes with the monk.

[Dullyanna]

Why not give em' spring attack and whatnot as they level up? Not like other classes don't do this. Wait a second, monks do this kinda thing already... Anyway, I really do like slexlollar89's concept. It'd also be nice to let them choose, to a limited extent, what blitzes* they want.

* You could always call them techniques, secret arts, special moves, or whatever. It doesn't matter that much, really.