El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

[Gez]

I've figured out what Bishop reminds me of. The female characters in the Shivering Isles // the daedric realm of madness.

She looks like a Disney villain.

[Maat Mons]

She looks like a cross between Raven (the Teen Titan) and a cobra (the animal).

[Rater202]

Dan did say on Twitter that a character he was introducing today had a small nose because the design was so "on the nose" that it got smooshed.

Either she's everything a law enforcement officer shouldn't be, or this is setting up one hell of a bait and switch.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Looks like the animal theming of the agents continues. Knight was supposed to be wolf-like in appearance IIRC, and Bishop is very clearly a cobra. Just look at that coat!

[Lissou]

I wonder if the chess theme is their codenames, or if it's just something Dan went with. Either way, hoping there will be more!

[Windscion]

Ah, the old "I will be the bad cop so that my partner can play good cop" routine.
And I continue to feel that Bishop would fit in just fine in New Sheoth, hanging with the Mazken.

[Gnoman]

That's not a creepy face at all.


Also, I'm lying.

[Silva Stormrage]

Okay, this is treading pretty close to RL politics so not going to touch that, just going to say that I generally agree with the stance the author is trying to make here. I just feel like Bishop being so cartoonish a caricature really kinda hurts his own point on how relevant this particular message is going to be. I hope this particular sub plot doesn't go on too long or at least develops some nuance.

[AmberVael]

Wow I really didn't expect the lovechild of the Evil Queen from Snow White and Voldemort to be evil.

[JeenLeen]

While Bishop is obviously with some negative traits (and I mean that as understatement), she's got a point. Verres has been hinted to have probably done some questionable things to keep things quiet, and it's obvious Arthur is very willing to... while Verres is mostly sympathetic and Arthur (at least early in his appearance) unsympathetic...
Urgh, not sure exactly what point I'm trying to make. I guess that both Knight and Bishop feel like caricatures. Bishop of a bad person, and Knight of an... overly <some trait or emotion> one. Such makes it hard to take either seriously as a point of debate or to care about their positions.

Like from the prior comic, "We've. Been. Reckless."
Like, dude, no you haven't. Magic has been the same for centuries and you had no reason to even believe it could change. Maybe he meant it was reckless not to retest all the wands and such, but from the little info they had (via Arthur, from Magic), the current system of magic "wasn't changing". They had no reason to think the wands could change. I guess it was reckless not to do a few tests with some standard spells (to make sure no changes, akin to enchantment duration changes)... but, like, he just seems overly guilty and angry about the guilt, to such a point it's hard to take him seriously.
(I realize I changed my position while writing the above paragraph. Went kinda stream of consciousness.)

Yet I guess I get it. If I was a security guard and thought I had a taser, but it turned out to be a rifle... and I shot myself instead of someone else due to a fluke... I'd be pretty mad at myself for almost shooting someone.

[Windscion]

I guess that both Knight and Bishop feel like caricatures. Bishop of a bad person, and Knight of an... overly <some trait or emotion> one. Such makes it hard to take either seriously as a point of debate or to care about their positions.

It might help if you headcanon that Knight was paired with Bishop to keep her from running amok.

[Gnoman]

While Bishop is obviously with some negative traits (and I mean that as understatement), she's got a point. Verres has been hinted to have probably done some questionable things to keep things quiet, and it's obvious Arthur is very willing to... while Verres is mostly sympathetic and Arthur (at least early in his appearance) unsympathetic...
Urgh, not sure exactly what point I'm trying to make. I guess that both Knight and Bishop feel like caricatures. Bishop of a bad person, and Knight of an... overly <some trait or emotion> one. Such makes it hard to take either seriously as a point of debate or to care about their positions.

Like from the prior comic, "We've. Been. Reckless."
Like, dude, no you haven't. Magic has been the same for centuries and you had no reason to even believe it could change. Maybe he meant it was reckless not to retest all the wands and such, but from the little info they had (via Arthur, from Magic), the current system of magic "wasn't changing". They had no reason to think the wands could change. I guess it was reckless not to do a few tests with some standard spells (to make sure no changes, akin to enchantment duration changes)... but, like, he just seems overly guilty and angry about the guilt, to such a point it's hard to take him seriously.
(I realize I changed my position while writing the above paragraph. Went kinda stream of consciousness.)

Yet I guess I get it. If I was a security guard and thought I had a taser, but it turned out to be a rifle... and I shot myself instead of someone else due to a fluke... I'd be pretty mad at myself for almost shooting someone.

I think part of it is that he now realizes how much else could have gone wrong after this went wrong. He mentions medical conditions - what if somebody had been somehow vulnerable to that spell?

[Maat Mons]

It turns out magic isn't some kind of magic bullet.

[Number43]

To go back to the spiders in video games thing, that made me think of some games I played years ago that did have some friendly spiders (though they did give you a quest to fight some other non-friendly spiders). They were some games from a company called "Spiderweb Software" incidentally. In some of their earliest games, the game series called "Exile", which was later remade into "Avernum" with various enhancements and improvements to the game engine and features, there were some "Giant Intellligent Friendly Talking Spiders" or "GIFTS" in one area. I think they also appeared in another game made by that company called "Nethergate". The spiders were described as talking in high pitched voices and being very silly. Every single one of them, if you ask for its name (one of the standard conversation options in the Exile games which any character you can talk to would have a response to), it would say it was named Spider. More than one of them would tell you that in order to do something or learn something you needed to "go talk to Spider" (Fortunately there were only a couple dozen or so of them to check). More than one of them, one of the dialogue options would lead them to saying to you "You're cute."

[Fyraltari]

Spiders are a very common ennemy in videogames. But so are wolves, bats and rats. Snakes, I don't think get that mich presence, maybe because animating them is harder? Anyway I wonder if arachnophobia is more common than murophobia or canophobia.

Regarding the last idea in today's NP, while that is nice in theory, I'm not sure it would work in practice to have every NPC keep track of how much they like each of your forms rather than just the one influence meter per NPC.

[Maat Mons]

I remember one of the Mardek games had a city of friendly trilobites. But you had to kill a whole slew of unfriendly trilobites to get there. One of the friendly ones asks you how many of his kind you've killed. But otherwise everyone in the city is perfectly nice.

[Celestia]

In Neverwinter Nights 2, you can find a non-hostile giant spider in a cave. If your character is a drow or can speak elven, or you have the druid ally on your team, you can befriend the spider. It then shows up again later in the game and gives you a mediocre cloak it wove out of its silk.

[theNater]

Spiders are a very common ennemy in videogames. But so are wolves, bats and rats. Snakes, I don't think get that mich presence, maybe because animating them is harder? Anyway I wonder if arachnophobia is more common than murophobia or canophobia.

Probably, yes. It's not easy to find good data on how common individual phobias are, but arachnophobia is a frequent visitor to most common phobias lists.

The numbers I could find indicated that somewhere between 5 and 12 percent of people have a phobia of a specific thing, and somewhere between 3 and 6 percent of people have arachnophobia in particular. Combining those, it seems reasonable to assume that about half of people with any such phobias include arachnophobia in their collection.

Regarding the last idea in today's NP, while that is nice in theory, I'm not sure it would work in practice to have every NPC keep track of how much they like each of your forms rather than just the one influence meter per NPC.

If the player has a small number of set forms, it shouldn't be too hard to do a form check at the start of the interaction, then have separate influence meters per form. Mostly copy/paste the influence meter code per form.

[DavidSh]

If the player has a small number of set forms, it shouldn't be too hard to do a form check at the start of the interaction, then have separate influence meters per form. Mostly copy/paste the influence meter code per form.

It would probably be a game design tradeoff between how many different characters there are in your party and how many different forms each can adopt. Assuming the type of computer RPG that gives you multiple characters you can assemble into a party.

[Maat Mons]

It's not unheard of for games to have a minigame you can play with each merchant to permanently improve their attitude, and thus get a discount. It's more typical for these minigames to be themed on conversation, but there's no reason it couldn't be a mini rhythm-game where you give the NPC a lap dance. And if the game has transformation, the scoring and difficulty of the lap-dance minigame could be based on how well your current form matches up with the NPC's preferences. Clothing could have a similar effect. Maybe give each merchant some dialog trees where they hint at which form and clothing combo will work best with them.

[Gez]

To go back to the spiders in video games thing, that made me think of some games I played years ago that did have some friendly spiders (though they did give you a quest to fight some other non-friendly spiders). They were some games from a company called "Spiderweb Software" incidentally. In some of their earliest games, the game series called "Exile", which was later remade into "Avernum" with various enhancements and improvements to the game engine and features, there were some "Giant Intellligent Friendly Talking Spiders" or "GIFTS" in one area. I think they also appeared in another game made by that company called "Nethergate". The spiders were described as talking in high pitched voices and being very silly. Every single one of them, if you ask for its name (one of the standard conversation options in the Exile games which any character you can talk to would have a response to), it would say it was named Spider. More than one of them would tell you that in order to do something or learn something you needed to "go talk to Spider" (Fortunately there were only a couple dozen or so of them to check). More than one of them, one of the dialogue options would lead them to saying to you "You're cute."

There's also this.

On the next point, I'll say I'm like that with cats. Stop forcing me to fight mountain lions and sabercats, Bethesda!

[Forum Explorer]

There's also this.

On the next point, I'll say I'm like that with cats. Stop forcing me to fight mountain lions and sabercats, Bethesda!

See this is why my attitude is like it is regarding enemies in games.

Which is basically '**** all ya'll!'

I don't think games should cater to any fears, or discomfort when it comes to opponents. If your phobias are so severe you are uncomfortable with even seeing a spider (or snake, or bat, or any of the many animals people have phobias about) than that is a problem you should be actively working to solve. People are doing you no favors by coddling you.

[Rater202]

Someone might actively be working on getting over their arachnophobia

That doesn't mean that being attacked by a Giant Spider out of nowhere won't trigger them.

"Warning contains spiders" can be the difference between someone bracing themselves and playing through the game and someone having a panic attack in the first dungeon and never playing it again.

[Maat Mons]

Now I want "Warning: Contains Spiders" stickers that I can just go around putting on random things.

[Lord Raziere]

There's also this.

On the next point, I'll say I'm like that with cats. Stop forcing me to fight mountain lions and sabercats, Bethesda!

See this is why none of the demands to take these animals out will ever happen. there will be people who will feel bad for fighting bears, and people who will feed bad for fighting yetis, or mudcrabs, or rats, or horkers on the coast, or mammoths, its a heroic fantasy genre rpg, there is going to be combat and death unless you go full classic cartoon, and there are games out there that aren't about killing anything. Dan honestly just sounds like he is playing the wrong genre and tone for his sensibilities. Bethesda games kind of live slightly on the cynical/dark side of the spectrum.

that and there rpgs like New Vegas which are all about moral grey areas and exploring those greys, Legion soldiers have dogs under their command and unless you take a perk so they don't attack you'll have to kill them, and a second perk will actually make them fight with you, and that has a cost to it in other areas. and even then there are animals not affected by the perk. and even the perk requirements are Cha 6, level 10 and Survival 45 so it requires at least some investment to take as a playstyle. none of this guarantees the animals will live through fighting for you either. if you took out stuff like animals to kill you can't have the ability to make friends with them so you don't HAVE to kill them, and sometimes a world that doesn't cater to your exact morality is the point, and you have to choose what is acceptable in lieu of a perfect solution.

like this kind of discussion really demonstrates why some companies will completely ignore the fans when making something, because if you listened to everyone's issues about what they don't like about a game and don't filter what is a valid concern from what isn't, your going to end up with something that has nothing, because everything in a game has someone out there who doesn't like that you kill it. you can say that its only going be spiders because arachnophobia all you want, but the fact remains is that it sets precedent that something can be taken out no matter little sense it makes to please a subset of fans, and another subset will feel slighted that they don't make sure you can't kill dogs or something because everyone loves dogs and they change that. and when that happens you get modders having to mod back in being able to kill dogs and having spiders to fight along with mods so they can kill children, because it makes no sense that they're somehow immortal or gone.

trust me, all getting rid of killing the animals you care about will do is add more work for modders to add it back so the world makes more sense, and mod plugins have an upper limit y'know.

[Forum Explorer]

Someone might actively be working on getting over their arachnophobia

That doesn't mean that being attacked by a Giant Spider out of nowhere won't trigger them.

"Warning contains spiders" can be the difference between someone bracing themselves and playing through the game and someone having a panic attack in the first dungeon and never playing it again.

If being attacked by a Giant Spider in a video game is enough to trigger them than they have serious problems. I mean, imagine their reaction if a spider dropped down on them when taking a walk in the park?

Basically, people with that level of phobia need to either overcome it, or go through the effort of protecting themselves from it. They can't and shouldn't expect people to protect them from their fears. Not when what they are afraid of are so abundantly common that in all likelihood, there is a spider in the room with you right now.

So I've got zero sympathy if they get themselves triggered and have to stop playing whatever game they are playing. Catering to them only promotes that sort of weakness, and makes a worse experience for everyone else who plays the game.

[Maat Mons]

You know what I don't like killing in games? Endangered species. Especially ones that are extinct in real life, and thus presumably the very last of their kind in the game world.

Lara Croft: "My God, somehow, in this isolated place, a few dinosaurs have managed to survive into modern times."
Lara Croft: *begins exterminating the worlds greatest treasure trove of biological insights*



In the last panel of the latest main comic, I like Diane's detective outfit. But, somehow, it needs to be combined with the Diane-a-chu outfit, to give us Detective Diane-a-chu.

[Celestia]

You know what I don't like killing in games? Endangered species. Especially ones that are extinct in real life, and thus presumably the very last of their kind in the game world.

Lara Croft: "My God, somehow, in this isolated place, a few dinosaurs have managed to survive into modern times."
Lara Croft: *begins exterminating the worlds greatest treasure trove of biological insights*

That's just the Indiana Jones style. All true archeologists blow up the entire ruin just to save one treasure.

[theNater]

See this is why none of the demands to take these animals out will ever happen.

What demands? "Spiders are boring" and "I don't like fighting mountain lions" are not demands.

Basically, people with that level of phobia need to either overcome it, or go through the effort of protecting themselves from it. They can't and shouldn't expect people to protect them from their fears.

Overcoming a phobia is a long and arduous process. The sort of thing people might want to play and discuss the most recent hit video game to take a break from.

...makes a worse experience for everyone else who plays the game.

I hasten to remind you that Dan's first point was "spiders are boring". Most games that have spiders would not be made worse by replacing the spiders with something else.

[Forum Explorer]

Overcoming a phobia is a long and arduous process. The sort of thing people might want to play and discuss the most recent hit video game to take a break from.


I hasten to remind you that Dan's first point was "spiders are boring". Most games that have spiders would not be made worse by replacing the spiders with something else.

It's not something you can take a break from. This isn't an exercise routine you can just choose to not do one day. It is almost impossible to control everything perfectly to guarantee you won't see any spiders that day.

I disagree completely with that opinion. Spiders are a classic foe, and are fascinating. More games should have spiders.