Avengers: Endgame Discussion Thread

[Rodin]

I feel like he probably could just think it, even now, but given the intense level of power in the glove, I feel like the finger snapping being "necessary" is an unintended side effect of Thanos' mentality and the sheer pressure of it all. It turns out using all the Infinity Stones at once is very very difficult, even with the ultra glove designed to be used for this exact purpose, and snapping his fingers was a nice way to focus all that energy into one single impact that would ensure it all goes off.

I watched Infinity War again yesterday to see it with the context of Endgame. There was some pretty interesting stuff.

Most relevant to your post is the way the Infinity Gauntlet works. Thanos isn't getting power-ups from the Gauntlet. He is able to use the stones if he closes his fist and deliberately activates them. A big part of the fight on Titan is disabling Thanos's hand, including Stark firing some gadget in there to stop him from closing his fist. This makes the fight with Thanos in Endgame make a lot more sense - Thanos didn't need the Gauntlet to thrash Hulk. He proves a major threat to the heroes on Titan with only sporadic use of the Gauntlet - shots that he's able to fire off when not pinned down. Also notably, he never uses more than one stone at a time.

Spoiler: Endgame-specific

Show

This is why Captain Marvel is able to overpower him initially - he can't close his fist and use the Power Stone. That's why he has to pop it out and into his other hand to use it. He's able to take on the other heroes without the stones because he's just that strong.

There were two other really big things.

The first is the controversial line "we don't trade lives" from Captain America. I've seen a lot of questions raised about in in relation to Black Widow's death - isn't that the same thing? Well...not really.

Vision raises the comparison between sacrificing himself and what Cap did to get himself frozen in the first place - sacrificing oneself to save millions of others. This gets shot down immediately by Bruce, because when Cap did it there was literally no other choice. Bruce points out that they can have their cake and eat it too - separate the stone from Vision, then destroy it. That cuts the debate off before it can really begin - they don't know how much time they have, but they're willing to gamble on it rather than force Wanda to kill the man she loves. Once there is no more time, Wanda goes ahead with Vision's request and kills him. It was just a shame about the Time Stone having powers that none of them knew about.

By the time we get to Endgame and the Soul stone, there are no other options. Either they get the stone, or billions remain dead. Both Black Widow and Hawkeye decide that it's worth it.

The second was Thor. Him falling into despair and depression in Endgame was kind of a surprise for me, as was his decision to retire afterwards. Watching Infinity War brings that into better focus.
Even before the Snap, Thor is pretty much a broken man. He's sick of seeing family die, seeing his people die, sick of responsibility. He wants only vengeance, and doesn't much care about what happens to himself. When he fails the first time, he's in deep shock. When he gets his vengeance, it's an utterly empty experience and means nothing, because even the villain no longer cares - he's completed his life's work and nothing can undo it. So Thor sees himself as unfit to lead, abandons his responsibilities, and starts drinking heavily.

The conversation with his mother brings new focus to his life - she knew she was going to die and went to her fate willingly, without blaming him. She tells him to be who he is, rather than what is expected of him. The second fight with Thanos then clears up his sense of failure. With a clean slate, he decides that he no longer wants to be king. It's too heavy a burden, and he wants a chance to go discover himself. So, he hands off rulership to someone he trusts and heads off to explore the galaxy with no expectations hanging over him for the first time in his life.

[Sapphire Guard]

Spoiler

Show

Naturally the snap and undoing it would be messy. Of course it would. Still a step up from not doing it, though.

[Chen]

I watched Infinity War again yesterday to see it with the context of Endgame. There was some pretty interesting stuff.

Most relevant to your post is the way the Infinity Gauntlet works. Thanos isn't getting power-ups from the Gauntlet. He is able to use the stones if he closes his fist and deliberately activates them. A big part of the fight on Titan is disabling Thanos's hand, including Stark firing some gadget in there to stop him from closing his fist. This makes the fight with Thanos in Endgame make a lot more sense - Thanos didn't need the Gauntlet to thrash Hulk. He proves a major threat to the heroes on Titan with only sporadic use of the Gauntlet - shots that he's able to fire off when not pinned down. Also notably, he never uses more than one stone at a time.

Spoiler: Endgame-specific

Show

This is why Captain Marvel is able to overpower him initially - he can't close his fist and use the Power Stone. That's why he has to pop it out and into his other hand to use it. He's able to take on the other heroes without the stones because he's just that strong.

There were two other really big things.

The first is the controversial line "we don't trade lives" from Captain America. I've seen a lot of questions raised about in in relation to Black Widow's death - isn't that the same thing? Well...not really.

Vision raises the comparison between sacrificing himself and what Cap did to get himself frozen in the first place - sacrificing oneself to save millions of others. This gets shot down immediately by Bruce, because when Cap did it there was literally no other choice. Bruce points out that they can have their cake and eat it too - separate the stone from Vision, then destroy it. That cuts the debate off before it can really begin - they don't know how much time they have, but they're willing to gamble on it rather than force Wanda to kill the man she loves. Once there is no more time, Wanda goes ahead with Vision's request and kills him. It was just a shame about the Time Stone having powers that none of them knew about.

By the time we get to Endgame and the Soul stone, there are no other options. Either they get the stone, or billions remain dead. Both Black Widow and Hawkeye decide that it's worth it.

The second was Thor. Him falling into despair and depression in Endgame was kind of a surprise for me, as was his decision to retire afterwards. Watching Infinity War brings that into better focus.
Even before the Snap, Thor is pretty much a broken man. He's sick of seeing family die, seeing his people die, sick of responsibility. He wants only vengeance, and doesn't much care about what happens to himself. When he fails the first time, he's in deep shock. When he gets his vengeance, it's an utterly empty experience and means nothing, because even the villain no longer cares - he's completed his life's work and nothing can undo it. So Thor sees himself as unfit to lead, abandons his responsibilities, and starts drinking heavily.

The conversation with his mother brings new focus to his life - she knew she was going to die and went to her fate willingly, without blaming him. She tells him to be who he is, rather than what is expected of him. The second fight with Thanos then clears up his sense of failure. With a clean slate, he decides that he no longer wants to be king. It's too heavy a burden, and he wants a chance to go discover himself. So, he hands off rulership to someone he trusts and heads off to explore the galaxy with no expectations hanging over him for the first time in his life.

Trading lives

Spoiler

Show

This never made sense in Infinity War. They specifically say they don't trade lives and then proceed into a giant armed conflict that will DEFINITELY cost lives. If the Mind Stone were destroyed (along with Vision) they had no reason to believe Thanos' army would attack Wakanda (or earth in general) at all. They traded all the lives of the Wakandans who died during that fight for a CHANCE to save Vision's life. That's EXACTLY trading lives

[Zalabim]

Trading lives

Spoiler

Show

This never made sense in Infinity War. They specifically say they don't trade lives and then proceed into a giant armed conflict that will DEFINITELY cost lives. If the Mind Stone were destroyed (along with Vision) they had no reason to believe Thanos' army would attack Wakanda (or earth in general) at all. They traded all the lives of the Wakandans who died during that fight for a CHANCE to save Vision's life. That's EXACTLY trading lives

Spoiler: Spoilers for infinity war?

Show

Just wrong. Thanos's army is already coming to Earth. The fight is unavoidable, unless everyone wants to just let Thanos kill at least half of the Earth, assuming he believes the Mind Stone is actually destroyed and wouldn't punish the Earthlings for destroying it. Even without the infinity stones, this is what Thanos does.

[LaZodiac]

I watched Infinity War again yesterday to see it with the context of Endgame. There was some pretty interesting stuff.

Most relevant to your post is the way the Infinity Gauntlet works. Thanos isn't getting power-ups from the Gauntlet. He is able to use the stones if he closes his fist and deliberately activates them. A big part of the fight on Titan is disabling Thanos's hand, including Stark firing some gadget in there to stop him from closing his fist. This makes the fight with Thanos in Endgame make a lot more sense - Thanos didn't need the Gauntlet to thrash Hulk. He proves a major threat to the heroes on Titan with only sporadic use of the Gauntlet - shots that he's able to fire off when not pinned down. Also notably, he never uses more than one stone at a time.

Spoiler: Endgame-specific

Show

This is why Captain Marvel is able to overpower him initially - he can't close his fist and use the Power Stone. That's why he has to pop it out and into his other hand to use it. He's able to take on the other heroes without the stones because he's just that strong.

There were two other really big things.

The first is the controversial line "we don't trade lives" from Captain America. I've seen a lot of questions raised about in in relation to Black Widow's death - isn't that the same thing? Well...not really.

Vision raises the comparison between sacrificing himself and what Cap did to get himself frozen in the first place - sacrificing oneself to save millions of others. This gets shot down immediately by Bruce, because when Cap did it there was literally no other choice. Bruce points out that they can have their cake and eat it too - separate the stone from Vision, then destroy it. That cuts the debate off before it can really begin - they don't know how much time they have, but they're willing to gamble on it rather than force Wanda to kill the man she loves. Once there is no more time, Wanda goes ahead with Vision's request and kills him. It was just a shame about the Time Stone having powers that none of them knew about.

By the time we get to Endgame and the Soul stone, there are no other options. Either they get the stone, or billions remain dead. Both Black Widow and Hawkeye decide that it's worth it.

The second was Thor. Him falling into despair and depression in Endgame was kind of a surprise for me, as was his decision to retire afterwards. Watching Infinity War brings that into better focus.
Even before the Snap, Thor is pretty much a broken man. He's sick of seeing family die, seeing his people die, sick of responsibility. He wants only vengeance, and doesn't much care about what happens to himself. When he fails the first time, he's in deep shock. When he gets his vengeance, it's an utterly empty experience and means nothing, because even the villain no longer cares - he's completed his life's work and nothing can undo it. So Thor sees himself as unfit to lead, abandons his responsibilities, and starts drinking heavily.

The conversation with his mother brings new focus to his life - she knew she was going to die and went to her fate willingly, without blaming him. She tells him to be who he is, rather than what is expected of him. The second fight with Thanos then clears up his sense of failure. With a clean slate, he decides that he no longer wants to be king. It's too heavy a burden, and he wants a chance to go discover himself. So, he hands off rulership to someone he trusts and heads off to explore the galaxy with no expectations hanging over him for the first time in his life.

Finally some good ****ing opinions. Beautifully written, that is exactly how I feel.

[Devonix]

Thanos actually does use multiple stones when fighting in Infinity war. Most notibly on Titan when fighting doctor Strange he uses Soul to find him and force him out of his multiform, and he uses Power, Space, and Soul.

He actually activates Soul and Space simultaniously.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Thanos actually does use multiple stones when fighting in Infinity war. Most notibly on Titan when fighting doctor Strange he uses Soul to find him and force him out of his multiform, and he uses Power, Space, and Soul.

He actually activates Soul and Space simultaniously.

Spoiler: When do we start phasing out spoilers?

Show

During Infinity War, he also has had time to get used to wearing the glove and using it. In this one, he never gets that chance - he only has access to the stones for seconds before being in a position to need to use them.

Grey Wolf

[Reddish Mage]

Spoiler: Endgame-specific

Show

This is why Captain Marvel is able to overpower him initially - he can't close his fist and use the Power Stone. That's why he has to pop it out and into his other hand to use it. He's able to take on the other heroes without the stones because he's just that strong.

There were two other really big things.

The first is the controversial line "we don't trade lives" from Captain America. I've seen a lot of questions raised about in in relation to Black Widow's death - isn't that the same thing? Well...not really.

Vision raises the comparison between sacrificing himself and what Cap did to get himself frozen in the first place - sacrificing oneself to save millions of others. This gets shot down immediately by Bruce, because when Cap did it there was literally no other choice. Bruce points out that they can have their cake and eat it too - separate the stone from Vision, then destroy it. That cuts the debate off before it can really begin - they don't know how much time they have, but they're willing to gamble on it rather than force Wanda to kill the man she loves. Once there is no more time, Wanda goes ahead with Vision's request and kills him. It was just a shame about the Time Stone having powers that none of them knew about.

By the time we get to Endgame and the Soul stone, there are no other options. Either they get the stone, or billions remain dead. Both Black Widow and Hawkeye decide that it's worth it.

The second was Thor. Him falling into despair and depression in Endgame was kind of a surprise for me, as was his decision to retire afterwards. Watching Infinity War brings that into better focus.
Even before the Snap, Thor is pretty much a broken man. He's sick of seeing family die, seeing his people die, sick of responsibility. He wants only vengeance, and doesn't much care about what happens to himself. When he fails the first time, he's in deep shock. When he gets his vengeance, it's an utterly empty experience and means nothing, because even the villain no longer cares - he's completed his life's work and nothing can undo it. So Thor sees himself as unfit to lead, abandons his responsibilities, and starts drinking heavily.

The conversation with his mother brings new focus to his life - she knew she was going to die and went to her fate willingly, without blaming him. She tells him to be who he is, rather than what is expected of him. The second fight with Thanos then clears up his sense of failure. With a clean slate, he decides that he no longer wants to be king. It's too heavy a burden, and he wants a chance to go discover himself. So, he hands off rulership to someone he trusts and heads off to explore the galaxy with no expectations hanging over him for the first time in his life.

This is basically the view of heroes actions they (the writers, directors) want you to see. The way Vision's sacrifice actually works out in Infinity War is that Vision doesn't commit suicide because he's convinced not to. Then, as they try to extract the mind stone, Thanos comes, demands the mind stone and fights for it.

As a result, an entire nation puts their lives on the line, and by extension the lives of everyone in the entire universe, because the heroes weren't willing to sacrifice one person. That includes T'challa, oddly the ruler of a country that up until recently, basically ignored what was going on with everyone on the entire planet, even people that "looked like them." That was true despite the fact that they were a high-tech country when the rest of the world thought the height of technology was a barely seaworthy piece of wood.

If they had just killed Vision right there, apparently, there would have been no snap, no battle of Wakanda, and Vision ends up dying anyway.

Spoiler: Endgame - more horrific tragedies caused by the heroes complete disregard from the consequences of their actions

Show

In Endgame, Tony decides to bring the dusted folk back five years in the future although we are told it would have been possible for the gauntlet to take everyone back to when the snap happened.

Tony has a very specific reason, as he wants to make sure he reconciles with Pepper and that Morgan is born. He also wanted a life with that family but I guess you can't get everything.

Now Morgan is admittedly very cute and loves cheeseburgers, but think about the horrific consequences of bringing everyone back to life after having been dead five years:

Families will have been split apart and moved on. Family members will have died in the interim five years. Nations will have lost their leadership and new political regimes will have arose. What happens when old leaders return along with half of the nations army, still loyal to the old regime?

The post I linked to only thought of the political and family-level implications. Think further of just basic legal and business implications. Won't all the dusted have long had all their property disposed of and given away? Won't all the businesses they own or run or were employed at have either closed up, filled or gotten rid of the empty positions, and otherwise moved on?

Restored people will all be jobless, penniless, and have that little problem in fixing the matter because they are legally dead. Typically, when countries have large populations of disadvantaged minorities that spells political trouble and violence. Now the heroes created a new class of have-nots consisting of half of the population.

Of course, they not only gloss over these problems in the final moments of the movie but imply these problems don't exist. We see King T'challa back in charge of Wakanda and Spiderman going back to high school with all his friends.

[Red Fel]

Spoiler: Timetravel

Show

Timetravel rarely works very well, and I just turned my brain off in that regard. It was a nice excuse to visit past movies, and that's enough for me. Cap vs Cap, and the subversion of the elevator scene with the Hail Hydra were especially funny.

While I didn't think about it that hard, going to give my two cents anyway. Personally, from Ancient One's and Hulk's discussion, I understood that returning the Infinity Stone prevents the timeline split, and the changes they made don't. I don't think the AO would have lied, and only hesitated because she believed there was a good chance the heroes wouldn't succeed (indeed, 1 in 14 million). Steve's stunt at the end does muddle things up a bit. Either him returning to the present caused a whole timeline to disappear (which seems awful, as people are sort of killed) or an alternate timeline is created every time someone travels to different point in time. In any case, I think the most consistent explanation is that he spent his time in the alternate timeline, and then came back to the present, remembering where everyone was at the time. Anyway, it was a nice ending for him. Not every retiring hero needs to die.

He also could have done something with Hank Pym/one of the Starks to maybe sort of stabilize their timeline. Not sure if the multiverse thing in Spider-Man trailer is related to the timetravel directly (I think they mentioned the Snap as a cause).

This is actually one of my three beefs. But let me back up.

Non-spoiler: I loved it. There were so many ways that this book-ended a decade-long narrative. So many nods, both subtle and not, to the history and actions of these characters. It closed the circle in a complete sense, and I adored it for that.

Cue the George Lucas quote about rhyming verses of poetry. You get my point.

Now to my three beefs:

Spoiler: First Beef

Show

Since that's where we started, Cap and time travel.

We've established that they're not actually traveling back to their past, because in the past they never traveled back there. Rather, they are traveling to an alternate past, in which them traveling back is an established historical fact.

They hammered that home, to make clear that they were not changing - and could not change - things that had actually happened. That was the point of the Hulk/Ancient One conversation - that their actions would save their timeline, but at the expense of that timeline, unless the stones were returned.

That also makes the plot function. If they were traveling back to their past, then it was their Thanos who traveled to their present, and died there. Which means he never went back to their past, never gathered the stones, and never Snapped half the universe. So obviously, this was alternate Thanos from an alternate timeline, one in which they did go back.

That's a problem. Because when Cap returned the Stones, he did so by returning them to the alternate timeline. Not their past, the alternate past. Which means that's where he lived his full, happy life. Which means that when he took the long way back to the present, he wound up in the alternate present, not this present. The whole mechanic they set up to make time travel function - alternate realities - renders this wonderful, sweet moment that Cap totally deserves you guys impossible. He can't just live through an alternate timeline and magically wind up back here. He winds up there. Those are the rules you established, movie!

Spoiler: Second Beef

Show

Speaking of time travel, let's talk about Natasha. She was sacrificed for the Soul Stone, and no Snap could bring her back, I get that.

But Gamora was sacrificed too. And thanks to the mechanics of time travel, they were able to bring her - well, alternate her - to the present. She exists now, in this timeline. She wasn't erased from all existences, just killed. And that can be fixed - and was.

By that same logic, using time travel, they can retrieve Natasha - or a version of her who wasn't sacrificed for the Soul Stone - to their present. She doesn't have to be "dead." It worked for Gamora, it can work for Nat.

This would make even more sense, given that they're planning on finally giving her a solo movie. Prequels have the unfortunate trait that you know how they have to end, to set up the movies you've seen. Even worse, when we know the character is dead in those movies. They could have fixed this, to at least leave something open.

Spoiler: Third Beef

Show

Speaking of characters who didn't have to die, let's talk Tony.

"What?" I hear you gasp. "He was already dying. He used the Stones." That's right, the energy released from the Stones was killing him fast.

But before he used the Stones, he was pretty healthy. Badly beaten up, but not dying. If only there were an object that could rewind his personal timestream to a point before he used the Stones. Something like one of the Stones. Maybe one related to Time. Maybe one that was canonically established as able to restore something damaged to its whole state.

Thanos was dead and they had the Stones, is my point. They could use one Stone - the Time Stone - without risk, before sending them back. They could have healed Tony before he died. Or even after, given how powerful the Stones are.

I know why they didn't. RDJ was too expensive to keep around, and his character's arc needed closure. That, and half of the cast was spending screen time erecting death flags; somebody had to wave one. I get it. But they didn't have to do that, in terms of the narrative. They did it for out-of-movie reasons.

In sum? Solid movie. Edge of my seat. Compelling and satisfying. But these were a few places that they dropped the ball, deliberately, for the purpose of pushing a story.

[Chen]

This is actually one of my three beefs. But let me back up.

Non-spoiler: I loved it. There were so many ways that this book-ended a decade-long narrative. So many nods, both subtle and not, to the history and actions of these characters. It closed the circle in a complete sense, and I adored it for that.

Cue the George Lucas quote about rhyming verses of poetry. You get my point.

Now to my three beefs:

Spoiler: First Beef

Show

Since that's where we started, Cap and time travel.

We've established that they're not actually traveling back to their past, because in the past they never traveled back there. Rather, they are traveling to an alternate past, in which them traveling back is an established historical fact.

They hammered that home, to make clear that they were not changing - and could not change - things that had actually happened. That was the point of the Hulk/Ancient One conversation - that their actions would save their timeline, but at the expense of that timeline, unless the stones were returned.

That also makes the plot function. If they were traveling back to their past, then it was their Thanos who traveled to their present, and died there. Which means he never went back to their past, never gathered the stones, and never Snapped half the universe. So obviously, this was alternate Thanos from an alternate timeline, one in which they did go back.

That's a problem. Because when Cap returned the Stones, he did so by returning them to the alternate timeline. Not their past, the alternate past. Which means that's where he lived his full, happy life. Which means that when he took the long way back to the present, he wound up in the alternate present, not this present. The whole mechanic they set up to make time travel function - alternate realities - renders this wonderful, sweet moment that Cap totally deserves you guys impossible. He can't just live through an alternate timeline and magically wind up back here. He winds up there. Those are the rules you established, movie!

Spoiler: Second Beef

Show

Speaking of time travel, let's talk about Natasha. She was sacrificed for the Soul Stone, and no Snap could bring her back, I get that.

But Gamora was sacrificed too. And thanks to the mechanics of time travel, they were able to bring her - well, alternate her - to the present. She exists now, in this timeline. She wasn't erased from all existences, just killed. And that can be fixed - and was.

By that same logic, using time travel, they can retrieve Natasha - or a version of her who wasn't sacrificed for the Soul Stone - to their present. She doesn't have to be "dead." It worked for Gamora, it can work for Nat.

This would make even more sense, given that they're planning on finally giving her a solo movie. Prequels have the unfortunate trait that you know how they have to end, to set up the movies you've seen. Even worse, when we know the character is dead in those movies. They could have fixed this, to at least leave something open.

Spoiler: Third Beef

Show

Speaking of characters who didn't have to die, let's talk Tony.

"What?" I hear you gasp. "He was already dying. He used the Stones." That's right, the energy released from the Stones was killing him fast.

But before he used the Stones, he was pretty healthy. Badly beaten up, but not dying. If only there were an object that could rewind his personal timestream to a point before he used the Stones. Something like one of the Stones. Maybe one related to Time. Maybe one that was canonically established as able to restore something damaged to its whole state.

Thanos was dead and they had the Stones, is my point. They could use one Stone - the Time Stone - without risk, before sending them back. They could have healed Tony before he died. Or even after, given how powerful the Stones are.

I know why they didn't. RDJ was too expensive to keep around, and his character's arc needed closure. That, and half of the cast was spending screen time erecting death flags; somebody had to wave one. I get it. But they didn't have to do that, in terms of the narrative. They did it for out-of-movie reasons.

In sum? Solid movie. Edge of my seat. Compelling and satisfying. But these were a few places that they dropped the ball, deliberately, for the purpose of pushing a story.

1st point

Spoiler

Show

This was just a bad filming decision. Directors mention that Cap DIDN'T take the long way back. He did time travel back. Hulk kind of alludes to this saying something like "he missed his coordinates" or whatever he said there. They should have just had old cap appear on the platform.

2nd point

Spoiler

Show

They COULD go to another timeline/reality and take a Nat from it. But then that timeline wouldn't have a Nat in it, just like there's a timeline out there with no Gamarra or Thanos (since they traveled to the future and didn't come back).

3rd point

Spoiler

Show

The time stone's time reversal was pretty inconsistent. When Thanos reversed time the explosion and trees shaking all got pulled back. Yet when Strange did it to the apple, only the apple changed. So, in conclusion, maybe? The time stone COULD maybe have been used to fix Tony. Hell the reality stone should have been able to do it. Or the soul stone to bring him back to life. We're taking about a ridiculous amount of power right in front of them

[Aotrs Commander]

This is actually one of my three beefs. But let me back up.

Non-spoiler: I loved it. There were so many ways that this book-ended a decade-long narrative. So many nods, both subtle and not, to the history and actions of these characters. It closed the circle in a complete sense, and I adored it for that.

Cue the George Lucas quote about rhyming verses of poetry. You get my point.

Now to my three beefs:

Spoiler: First Beef

Show

Since that's where we started, Cap and time travel.

We've established that they're not actually traveling back to their past, because in the past they never traveled back there. Rather, they are traveling to an alternate past, in which them traveling back is an established historical fact.

They hammered that home, to make clear that they were not changing - and could not change - things that had actually happened. That was the point of the Hulk/Ancient One conversation - that their actions would save their timeline, but at the expense of that timeline, unless the stones were returned.

That also makes the plot function. If they were traveling back to their past, then it was their Thanos who traveled to their present, and died there. Which means he never went back to their past, never gathered the stones, and never Snapped half the universe. So obviously, this was alternate Thanos from an alternate timeline, one in which they did go back.

That's a problem. Because when Cap returned the Stones, he did so by returning them to the alternate timeline. Not their past, the alternate past. Which means that's where he lived his full, happy life. Which means that when he took the long way back to the present, he wound up in the alternate present, not this present. The whole mechanic they set up to make time travel function - alternate realities - renders this wonderful, sweet moment that Cap totally deserves you guys impossible. He can't just live through an alternate timeline and magically wind up back here. He winds up there. Those are the rules you established, movie!

Spoiler

Show

Rolemaster had a phrase for it - saving appearences. So long as the past is visibly unchanged, just because you percieved the past one way doesn't mean it was really all another way. Actually, it is more the past HASN'T changed, you just didn't know what the TRUE past really was.

(The bad guy time organisation in RM's sorucebook ran entirely off this pricipal, where they whole modus operadi was to make all of recorded human history a lie, behind which they had been in charge all along.)

To twit: nothing in Agent Carter of the handful of times we've seen Peggy since actively precludes Cap meeting up with her (say, at the point well after the series where they swiped the stone), quietly living his life with her without getting involved (perhaps only known to a vanishing few) and just, y'know, NOT telling young Cap about the fact she was with Old Cap in Winter Soldier - because she would have know NOT to. Perfectly within her capablities.

Heck, it's practical retrocasual probability engineering - the practise of making things they way they always have been.

I found zero problems with this scenario myself because that is immediately where my mind went.


Maybe that was not exactly what the directors have SAID, but it was what I took away from what they actually SHOWED me.

[HMS Invincible]

1st point

Spoiler

Show

This was just a bad filming decision. Directors mention that Cap DIDN'T take the long way back. He did time travel back. Hulk kind of alludes to this saying something like "he missed his coordinates" or whatever he said there. They should have just had old cap appear on the platform.

2nd point

Spoiler

Show

They COULD go to another timeline/reality and take a Nat from it. But then that timeline wouldn't have a Nat in it, just like there's a timeline out there with no Gamarra or Thanos (since they traveled to the future and didn't come back).

3rd point

Spoiler

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The time stone's time reversal was pretty inconsistent. When Thanos reversed time the explosion and trees shaking all got pulled back. Yet when Strange did it to the apple, only the apple changed. So, in conclusion, maybe? The time stone COULD maybe have been used to fix Tony. Hell the reality stone should have been able to do it. Or the soul stone to bring him back to life. We're taking about a ridiculous amount of power right in front of them

If they are going with a multiverse, then you can have a universe where Nat lives. It's the one where Barton dies for the stone, and Nat comes back alone. Easy, just need a hole in the dimensions that allows alternate universe people to travel through... Like Mysterio in Far From Home Spiderman.

[Lapak]

WRT the third beef, something I mentioned upthread:

Spoiler

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The same is theoretically true of everyone damaged by using them: Hulk and Thanos. But they established all the way back in Avengers that the Stones can't protect from or prevent each other's direct influence, so the damage from wielding them may be something the Time Stone can't undo. It's a little handwavey, but they established precedent for it.

You have to accept that the Snap is qualitatively different, but given that they wasn't caused by direct contact with the Stones that's not impossible.

[Lethologica]

Spoiler: Third Beef

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Speaking of characters who didn't have to die, let's talk Tony.

"What?" I hear you gasp. "He was already dying. He used the Stones." That's right, the energy released from the Stones was killing him fast.

But before he used the Stones, he was pretty healthy. Badly beaten up, but not dying. If only there were an object that could rewind his personal timestream to a point before he used the Stones. Something like one of the Stones. Maybe one related to Time. Maybe one that was canonically established as able to restore something damaged to its whole state.

Thanos was dead and they had the Stones, is my point. They could use one Stone - the Time Stone - without risk, before sending them back. They could have healed Tony before he died. Or even after, given how powerful the Stones are.

I know why they didn't. RDJ was too expensive to keep around, and his character's arc needed closure. That, and half of the cast was spending screen time erecting death flags; somebody had to wave one. I get it. But they didn't have to do that, in terms of the narrative. They did it for out-of-movie reasons.

It's not necessarily satisfying, but special pleading can be invoked for Snappening damage, along the lines of "what all six stones do, no one alone can undo" or whatever.

If they are going with a multiverse, then you can have a universe where Nat lives. It's the one where Barton dies for the stone, and Nat comes back alone. Easy, just need a hole in the dimensions that allows alternate universe people to travel through... Like Mysterio in Far From Home Spiderman.

The point isn't that we can't find a living Nat somewhere, but that it wouldn't be fair to anyone (least of all Nat) to just nab her from that universe because she died in this one. That's some Other Mother s***.

Besides, in Endgame, there's no indication that alternate timelines exist without someone traveling back in time to create the divergence. Don't trust Marvel trailers, and don't trust Mysterio; but even if Mysterio is telling the truth, he may be from one of the timelines that were already created, meaning there's no additional timelines where Clint dies and Nat survives.

[Rakaydos]

It's not necessarily satisfying, but special pleading can be invoked for Snappening damage, along the lines of "what all six stones do, no one alone can undo" or whatever.


The point isn't that we can't find a living Nat somewhere, but that it wouldn't be fair to anyone (least of all Nat) to just nab her from that universe because she died in this one. That's some Other Mother s***.

Besides, in Endgame, there's no indication that alternate timelines exist without someone traveling back in time to create the divergence. Don't trust Marvel trailers, and don't trust Mysterio; but even if Mysterio is telling the truth, he may be from one of the timelines that were already created, meaning there's no additional timelines where Clint dies and Nat survives.

Spoiler: Strictly speaking there's timelines where nat survives...

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...but Clint doesn't die. That would be pretty much any pre-snap timeline. (all bets are off for post snap, because if the snap was truly random, it should reroll who gets dusted in each universe rather than "seed" a given random output- Nat and Clint both surviving- in each timeline) But we know there's at least 1 timeline where the snap can never happen, because Thanos left.

[Chen]

Besides, in Endgame, there's no indication that alternate timelines exist without someone traveling back in time to create the divergence. Don't trust Marvel trailers, and don't trust Mysterio; but even if Mysterio is telling the truth, he may be from one of the timelines that were already created, meaning there's no additional timelines where Clint dies and Nat survives.

Yeah there are a few lingering branched timelines though. But yeah you'd be stealing the person from that universe to bring to yours. Not really cool.

[HMS Invincible]

Yeah there are a few lingering branched timelines though. But yeah you'd be stealing the person from that universe to bring to yours. Not really cool.

Unless Nat came of her own will, like she is escaping Galactus/Kang the conquerer by moving dimensions, or a dimensional storm sweeps her into the main universe. If you get creative enough, nobody will bat an eye at getting Nat back.

[Clertar]

Yeah there are a few lingering branched timelines though. But yeah you'd be stealing the person from that universe to bring to yours. Not really cool.

Right. JJ Abrams produced a whole series called Fringe built around this issue.

[Kitten Champion]

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The film was very specific that the Snap affected " All Lifeforms " They demonstrated that the Snap was undone first by showing the birds that were supposed to be in the enclosure returning. They were previously killed in " The Snap "

I want to state that my biggest problem with the movie, is a rather silly one. And that is.

Why the hell is Snapping so important. The entire point of it being a Snap in the comics was because it was a trivial thing to do. He didn't need to Snap to do anything, he could just think, or point, or Jojo pose. But snapping became an actual plot point and It's just the goofiest thing ever with all of these people trying to snap or stop someone from snapping like we're in a 70s greaser movie.

Because this was a story wherein Thanos could be stopped, and not through a subconscious self-destructive complex where he defeats himself. The movie needed to establish for the audience an internally consistent and visually apparent mechanism for his Infinity Stone powers to work - the closing of the fist - which could be prevented by the Heroes, and an even clearer defined separate one (with an audible cue) for the momentous act-of-god stuff using all the gems which are the most important moments in both movies. They used the comics as a reference point - which follows the idea of "I can change the universe with a snap of my fingers" - rather than directly 1-to-1 using the same concept, as that would leave the Heroes in the same place as their comic counter-parts -- without agency or meaning in the plot.

[Devonix]

Because this was a story wherein Thanos could be stopped, and not through a subconscious self-destructive complex where he defeats himself. The movie needed to establish for the audience an internally consistent and visually apparent mechanism for his Infinity Stone powers to work - the closing of the fist - which could be prevented by the Heroes, and an even clearer defined separate one (with an audible cue) for the momentous act-of-god stuff using all the gems which are the most important moments in both movies. They used the comics as a reference point - which follows the idea of "I can change the universe with a snap of my fingers" - rather than directly 1-to-1 using the same concept, as that would leave the Heroes in the same place as their comic counter-parts -- without agency or meaning in the plot.

I still wished they'd picked some other indicator. I'm ok with the closing of the fist. It's the act of snapping, that's the silly part.

[Kitten Champion]

I still wished they'd picked some other indicator. I'm ok with the closing of the fist. It's the act of snapping, that's the silly part.

Outside of the comic reference, there aren't that many things you can do with a single hand really . Particularly ones that make an obvious noise and works with a gauntlet on.

This is why Q in Star Trek snaps his fingers, a symbol of his casual power over reality that everyone in the audience understands and to signify that something happened so it's obviously connected to him.

[ben-zayb]

If you think snapping is silly from an in-story logic, how about:

1. The Space-Time GPS not being able to set course to Vormir, despite an otherwise generic space vehicle able to do so.

2. The magical, invisible, damn-near-telepathy-that-I-am-actually-convinced-this-is-something-Strange-actually-did-in-the-movie, Communicators

3. Everyone popping off their headgear, whose very purpose is to protect their head from injury, so we can see these Hollywood celebs speak

[LibraryOgre]

If you think snapping is silly from an in-story logic, how about:

1. The Space-Time GPS not being able to set course to Vormir, despite an otherwise generic space vehicle able to do so.

Was that stated? I thought it was just that they were heading to the same time, so it was more convenient to teleport them to one place, and have Nat and Clint (who were less time-restricted) travel through normalspace.

[Draconi Redfir]

Unless Nat came of her own will, like she is escaping Galactus/Kang the conquerer by moving dimensions, or a dimensional storm sweeps her into the main universe. If you get creative enough, nobody will bat an eye at getting Nat back.

the problem with that though is you start entering the comic-book trope of "superheroes never stay dead.", which really takes away any maningfullness from a character's death. Once one comes back, why not others after all?

[HMS Invincible]

the problem with that though is you start entering the comic-book trope of "superheroes never stay dead.", which really takes away any maningfullness from a character's death. Once one comes back, why not others after all?

So did all the retirements or near deaths from the supers. Contracts and fan enthusiasm is what matters. If Black Widow's movie does well, or even gets a full trilogy, the chances of some weird bull**** that brings her back to life rises a lot.

[Kitten Champion]

Was that stated? I thought it was just that they were heading to the same time, so it was more convenient to teleport them to one place, and have Nat and Clint (who were less time-restricted) travel through normalspace.

That was my understanding as well. Also, none of the characters had been to Vormir and only Nebula had ever even been so much as into space before, going via space ship - in a situation where you had no real tight time restraints at that point in the timeline - rather than just teleporting there blindly makes complete sense.

To paraphrase Nebula, so long as they followed the coordinates she inputted and didn't anything unnecessary with the control it was trivial for them to get there.

[LaZodiac]

If you think snapping is silly from an in-story logic, how about:

1. The Space-Time GPS not being able to set course to Vormir, despite an otherwise generic space vehicle able to do so.

2. The magical, invisible, damn-near-telepathy-that-I-am-actually-convinced-this-is-something-Strange-actually-did-in-the-movie, Communicators

3. Everyone popping off their headgear, whose very purpose is to protect their head from injury, so we can see these Hollywood celebs speak

You need to follow a very specific path to reach Vormir, not even Thanos could space warp into it he had to travel.

Tony Stark literally created nanomachines.

I mean this is just something you need to get over if you like consuming media.

[Androgeus]

You need to follow a very specific path to reach Vormir, not even Thanos could space warp into it he had to travel.

Thanos did space stone there

[LaZodiac]

Right, I forgot that.

[The Glyphstone]

Can we get a spin-off series about alt-universe Director Margaret Carter's mild-mannered househusband 'Roger Stevens' and his secret vigilante adventures?