Avengers: Endgame Discussion Thread

[Tvtyrant]

Yeah, they’d be a great anti-buddy pair. “I hate you, but I have to work with you.” It’ll be fun for everyone but them.



Right there with you. I didn’t bother with Captain Marvel and I don’t feel like I missed anything. Ditto for Ant-Man 2, GoTG 2, etc. etc.

I have a serious case of superhero fatigue in general, and a recent Chinese animated film reminded me of how much else is out there beyond superhero movies. Apart from the next Spider-Man, and maybe Black Widow, I’m just not motivated to watch more punching.

I'm punching out my timecard on the genre as well. I'm seeing the next Deadpool and maybe the next GotG, but otherwise I am done. I watched about forty comic book movies in theaters, I don't really want to see more.

[Comrade]

I'm just getting started with them. Endgame was the first one I actually saw in theaters and I didn't start watching them until I happened on Civil War on Netflix like a year ago. I can see why folks who've been following those movies from the start and seeing every single one on release would be burned out on 'em though.

[Kato]

See i guess that says a lot about how subjective taste are.
Since i think its Logan that are utter trash.

Seconded. I would watch The Wolverine over Logan any day of the week. Origins on the other hand...

I'm genuinely curious why you think that. I mean, I'm not going to make a case for Logan being perfect but...


Also, no hero fatigue here. With Marvel movies I can be pretty sure I'll be entertained for two hours, which is why I go to the cinema. I might not get any big surprises but I can easily live with that over a disappointing waste of time.

[lord_khaine]

I'm genuinely curious why you think that. I mean, I'm not going to make a case for Logan being perfect but...

Well.. hmm.. if you want a pizza, then getting a sushi dish isnt going to satisfy you, no matter how well done the dish is?

[Aotrs Commander]

Well.. hmm.. if you want a pizza, then getting a sushi dish isnt going to satisfy you, no matter how well done the dish is?

Yeah.

For me, if your premise for an X-Man film starts out with "all the X-Men are dead," then I don't care what follows after, you failed already - especially if you already blew your one alloted credible instance of that by doing Days of Future Past once already.

(Double-especially if you are even GLANCING in the direction of Old Man Logan which was the worst Wolverine story I ever had the misfortune of seeing and wasting money on, and the second-worst-period after Battleworld!Runaways which I found so heinous I kept it over winter just so that I could go out and literally burn it.)

I'm sure Hugh Jackman and Patrick Stewart did an excellent job, but I'm just not remotely interested in the story that's being told. Not even for my second-favourite X-Man and Laura on the big screen.

Logan remains the only X-Man film - heck, Marvel-based - film I haven't watched (unless that horror-looking one came out with... I wanna say New Mutants...? That looked even worse, if it as anything like what the trailer suggested.)

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander
...unless that horror-looking one came out with... I wanna say New Mutants...? That looked even worse, if it as anything like what the trailer suggested.

I was wondering if that was even legit, or some sort of weird fan-made trailer, but it turns out it's confirmed with Maisie Williams as Rahne. The movie was apparently pushed back until 2020.

I loved the early New Mutants comics when I was a kid, so I'm willing to give this one a chance.

[LaZodiac]

Yeah.

For me, if your premise for an X-Man film starts out with "all the X-Men are dead," then I don't care what follows after, you failed already - especially if you already blew your one alloted credible instance of that by doing Days of Future Past once already.

(Double-especially if you are even GLANCING in the direction of Old Man Logan which was the worst Wolverine story I ever had the misfortune of seeing and wasting money on, and the second-worst-period after Battleworld!Runaways which I found so heinous I kept it over winter just so that I could go out and literally burn it.)

I'm sure Hugh Jackman and Patrick Stewart did an excellent job, but I'm just not remotely interested in the story that's being told. Not even for my second-favourite X-Man and Laura on the big screen.

Logan remains the only X-Man film - heck, Marvel-based - film I haven't watched (unless that horror-looking one came out with... I wanna say New Mutants...? That looked even worse, if it as anything like what the trailer suggested.)

If it makes you feel better Logan the film excised basically every bad thing from Old Man Logan.

[lord_khaine]

If it makes you feel better Logan the film excised basically every bad thing from Old Man Logan.

Except Logan is still old and misserable?
Its still a crapsack world.
The theme is closer to suffering than hope.

As far as i saw it, the movie removed nothing of the bits that needed to be removed.
But i already made my point on the subjectivity of movie taste.

[Kato]

Well.. hmm.. if you want a pizza, then getting a sushi dish isnt going to satisfy you, no matter how well done the dish is?

Fair enough, but that means 'you don't want sushi' , not 'sushi is trash.'

And @aorts while you are obviously free to have no interest in Logan but they didn't call it X-men : Logan or anything, it's quite clearly NOT meant to be an x-men movie or even a Wolverine movie but a Logan movie. So the complaint about not being such falls a little flat.

[GloatingSwine]

As far as i saw it, the movie removed nothing of the bits that needed to be removed.

So you don't think Hulk turning evil and cannibalistic because of Mark Millar reasons and having a legion of incestuous rape babies with She-Hulk is not the sort of thing that needed to be removed?

Because that's a thing in Old Man Logan.

Or Wolverine being fooled by Mysterio into murdering all of the rest of the X-Men? (despite the fact that in no way could Mysterio fool Wolverine's enhanced senses nor is Wolverine strong or skilled enough to kill the rest of the team.)

Because that's a thing in Old Man Logan.

Also, it's a tedious Mark Millar "all the supervillains co-operate and trivially win" story like Wanted.



And Logan is nothing like it. Literally the only significant similarity is that one of the words in the title is the same.

[lord_khaine]

Fair enough, but that means 'you don't want sushi' , not 'sushi is trash.'

Well.. when its delivered in a pizza box then i feel justified in calling it trash.

And Logan is nothing like it. Literally the only significant similarity is that one of the words in the title is the same.

Fine, it didnt remove enough.
There, are you happy?

[Aotrs Commander]

If it makes you feel better Logan the film excised basically every bad thing from Old Man Logan.

Except, y'know, the part where all the X-Men were killed, which is, in my opinion, kind of the biggy. The rest of the stupidity was almost laughable in how purile it was splashing around in the mud, trying to edgy and dark, but it was just accessories to the primary idiocy.

(Also, a tacit "it isn't as bad as the second-worst thing I've ever read" is damning with the faintest of praises if I've ever heard it.)

And @aorts while you are obviously free to have no interest in Logan but they didn't call it X-men : Logan or anything, it's quite clearly NOT meant to be an x-men movie or even a Wolverine movie but a Logan movie. So the complaint about not being such falls a little flat.

I... What.

That... Is a ridiculous arguement.

I... HOW can a movie about the same character, regardless of him using his code-name or not make it... Not be about the same character?

Especially since - aside from the titles - both previous Wolervine movies were not about Wolverine or the X-Men either - and I had zero problems with them.

I say again. Logan/Wolverine. Second, Favourite. X-Man. I liked the FIRST Wolverine movie, where more or less all the rest of you didn't.



Bleakbane Rant incoming:

Give me a crapsack world and I will give you in return my complete disinterest. At best. (EVEN IF Jubilee Was The Main Character.)

Let me makes this clear. IT DOES NOT MATTER what franchise, IP, or whatever you are, if your starting premise is "all those characters you came into thing thing have all been killed¹" then I already don't care what you're doing. I wouldn't watch "MLP where everyone but Twilight got murdered," FMA where "everyone but Ling got murdered," or Naruto where "everyone but Tenten got murdered."

Basically, if you are going for "none of the characters you got into [this thing] for got a satisfactory ending," then I'm not interested in anything you have to say after that. (Cases in point: FMA '03, where I was "nope, screw the movie, I no longer care, I'mma watch the better series now;" Xena, whose entire final season I skipped when they started killing off the recurring cast an especially Joxer; it was equally crap when Transformers did it (yes, Marvel comic run Rhythms of Darkness, I DO mean you).)

Doesn't matter who you are or what character your talking about, I cannot say this emphatically enough: I'm not interested in your exploration of this character or that character and how they react to a new load of crap world, I don't think it is clever or worthwhile or most of all entertaining - I don't even give it a pass in fanfiction, let alone an actual thing I have to pay money for.

(Heck, plomping an established character or two from a thing into a new thing without the old thing context very rarely works well in the first place.)

You want to use character death? You use it extraordinarily sparingly and you use it RIGHT or you don't use it at all.

Spoiler: Endgame

Show

Which Endgame did. Two deaths, one retirement. Killing off any more than that would have made the impact LESS. (I mean, for a kick-off, you kill a load of characters off, you do't get to see how those characters actually react to the death of one or those characters, duh.)

Character death as off-screen world-building and/or throwing characters aside from your chosen protagonist under a bus with the aim of underdogging and isolating the main character for "lowest ebb to rise" is I feel is kinda lazy and rather well-overdone at best to me. Do this the wrong way and you lose my interest in a whole franchise (Star Wars, lookin' at you nucanon). I have said this so often, but if you can't find a better way to raise tension that "kill characters off" you aren't trying.



¹And there's even a difference between that and "everyone is dead because long time-skip," which I at least MIGHT give half a context-seeking-glance at.

[lord_khaine]

Character death as off-screen world-building and/or throwing characters aside from your chosen protagonist under a bus with the aim of underdogging and isolating the main character for "lowest ebb to rise" is I feel is kinda lazy and rather well-overdone at best to me. Do this the wrong way and you lose my interest in a whole franchise (Star Wars, lookin' at you nucanon). I have said this so often, but if you can't find a better way to raise tension that "kill characters off" you aren't trying

Thats certainly the biggest part of what made me give up on the New Star Wars.
I could have suffered though Rei if they had kept Han and Luke alive.

[Wookieetank]

Thats certainly the biggest part of what made me give up on the New Star Wars.
I could have suffered though Rei if they had kept Han and Luke alive.

Not to mention just how very poorly it was done. Endgame had me and everyone I was with in tears. Star Wars VII & VIII got a, "Whelp, that just happened" from me. Not really the reaction you should be shooting for if you're expecting to create an emotional impact.

[Rodin]

So, I was just flipping through Netflix and the Hulk movie popped up on the list. This has made me realize that I've never actually watched it, and it's the only MCU movie I haven't seen.

Is it worth it? It isn't Ruffalo, and appears to have been almost entirely de-canonized by the rest of the MCU given how few references there are to it. Is it a decent movie, or has it been forgotten about for good reason and the real Hulk origin story is now in Avengers?

[HandofShadows]

So, I was just flipping through Netflix and the Hulk movie popped up on the list. This has made me realize that I've never actually watched it, and it's the only MCU movie I haven't seen.

Is it worth it? It isn't Ruffalo, and appears to have been almost entirely de-canonized by the rest of the MCU given how few references there are to it. Is it a decent movie, or has it been forgotten about for good reason and the real Hulk origin story is now in Avengers?

There are two Hulk films. Hulk in 2003 and The Incredible Hulk in 2008. The first film has been more or less be de-canonized as you put it. The second film though is still canon and is referenced somewhat in Avengers and you have Tony Stark in the after credits of Incredible talking about the Avengers. The first Hulk movie wasn't that good, the second was better. Norton plays a good Banner in Incredible (IMO), but I don't think he would have nearly as good as Ruffalo after that movie.

[Rodin]

There are two Hulk films. Hulk in 2003 and The Incredible Hulk in 2008. The first film has been more or less be de-canonized as you put it. The second film though is still canon and is referenced somewhat in Avengers and you have Tony Stark in the after credits of Incredible talking about the Avengers. The first Hulk movie wasn't that good, the second was better. Norton plays a good Banner in Incredible (IMO), but I don't think he would have nearly as good as Ruffalo after that movie.

Yes, to be specific I am talking Incredible Hulk, the MCU one with Norton. Endgame referenced everything else in the franchise to hell and back, but I didn't catch any references to that one and other than "something something gamma radiation" I don't recall the plot of it being discussed anywhere else in the franchise. That's what I meant by it being de-canonized - because it isn't Ruffalo, the events are not referenced at all and we never see flashbacks to it. As a result, the movie is a bit of a black box to me.

[Gallowglass]

Yes, to be specific I am talking Incredible Hulk, the MCU one with Norton. Endgame referenced everything else in the franchise to hell and back, but I didn't catch any references to that one and other than "something something gamma radiation" I don't recall the plot of it being discussed anywhere else in the franchise. That's what I meant by it being de-canonized - because it isn't Ruffalo, the events are not referenced at all and we never see flashbacks to it. As a result, the movie is a bit of a black box to me.

Well, we still got William Hurt as Thunderbolt Ross thanks to that movie!

[Talakeal]

Yes, to be specific I am talking Incredible Hulk, the MCU one with Norton. Endgame referenced everything else in the franchise to hell and back, but I didn't catch any references to that one and other than "something something gamma radiation" I don't recall the plot of it being discussed anywhere else in the franchise. That's what I meant by it being de-canonized - because it isn't Ruffalo, the events are not referenced at all and we never see flashbacks to it. As a result, the movie is a bit of a black box to me.

I thought it would have been hillarious if they had done a time travel experiment on the Hulk and had him come back looking like Ed Norton.

Dissapointed they didn't have a Liv Tyler cameo, I would love to know if Bruce and Betty ended up together once he got his rage issues under control, but just standing next to General Ross at the funeral would have been enough.

Still would have prefered a Darcy cameo though...

[GloatingSwine]

Yes, to be specific I am talking Incredible Hulk, the MCU one with Norton. Endgame referenced everything else in the franchise to hell and back, but I didn't catch any references to that one and other than "something something gamma radiation" I don't recall the plot of it being discussed anywhere else in the franchise. That's what I meant by it being de-canonized - because it isn't Ruffalo, the events are not referenced at all and we never see flashbacks to it. As a result, the movie is a bit of a black box to me.

Banner changing from Ed Norton to Mark Ruffalo is as significant as Rhodey changing from Terrence Howard to Don Cheadle.

The events of The Incredible Hulk are referenced in the first Avengers movie ("Last time I was in New York I broke... Harlem") and the return of William Hurt as Thunderbolt Ross in Civil War.

[Ramza00]

Remember Hulk rights is still in developmental hell. Just a reminder of 4th wall breaking lore that most people should never have to remember. These money things are the reason why we do not get more Hulk.

-----





Universal TV department was involved with the 1970s Incredible Hulk tv show. There was interest in doing an Incredible Hulk movie in the 80s and 90s and Universal maintained the rights. Yadda Yadda Yadda lots of change of creative teams happen and eventually Ang Lee's 2003 Hulk came out.

Marvel which at this time was its separate company regained some but not all the rights to the Hulk character after the 2003 movie. Thus the MCU The Incredible Hulk (2008) with Norton is distributed by Universal.

After this movie in 2009 Disney acquires Marvel. Disney wants to use its own distribution company even if the movie is actually made by its own subsidiary...Yadda, Yadda, Yadda Hollywood stuff and who makes how much money from movies and how many theaters carry the movie and so on.

Some people though Hulk being so much of a prominent character in Ragnarok is doing the thing dirty with the understanding of what is acceptable and what is not with these right deals.

-----

This is why we still have not had another Hulk movie since The Incredible Hulk. Marvel owns the rights to Hulk in movies but not the distribution rights which belong to Universal. That said this is not insurmountable. For example Disney and Sony played nice and Sony allows Spider-Man in some team up movies even ones distrubted by competitors that are not Sony (money exchange hands.)

Yet with Spider-man Homecoming and Far from Home Sony Pictures Releasing did the distribution even though most of the MCU movies are distributed by the The Walt Disney Company. Note Paramount distributed The Avengers and Iron Man 3 plus Iron Man, Iron Man 2, Thor and Captain America: The First Avenger aka the first phase of the MCU. Well Disney bought the distribution rights of these movies in 2010 for The Avengers and Iron Man 3 (for these movies hadn't come out yet) and later bought the remaining distribution rights of all the phase 1 MCU movies besides The Incredible Hulk from Paramount in 2013 (IM 1, IM 2, Thor 1, CA 1.)

Blah, blah, blah. It would be nice for Universals to share the Hulk more with Marvel in my mind as a fan of the character. Yet it makes complete and utter sense for Universal to not play nice with Disney unless Disney and Universal can figure out a good deal between the two with the sharing.

-----

Distribution rights means if Disney does Disney Plus with all the MCU movies that the 2008 Incredible Hulk will not be a part of it unless Universal and Disney come to a form of money arrangement and decide to share.

[Aedilred]

Except, y'know, the part where all the X-Men were killed, which is, in my opinion, kind of the biggy. The rest of the stupidity was almost laughable in how purile it was splashing around in the mud, trying to edgy and dark, but it was just accessories to the primary idiocy.

If you're not interested in something, you're not interested in something. There's no accounting for taste. But equally, don't try to pass that off as some kind of objective quality control in order to damn something you haven't even watched.

For what it's worth, I would probably have agreed with you about the "don't kill off all your characters off screen before you start" thing, before watching the film. But I'm glad I did watch it, because for my money Logan is one of the best superhero movies ever made.

And because I can't help myself, I will note that that point isn't rammed down one's throat. We don't know exactly what happened, and the characters don't talk about it, but we know something did, and it was bad. The movie absolutely leaves room for the assumption that <your favourite X-men character who doesn't appear in this movie> survived - which immediately renders it superior to, say, Last Stand or Apocalypse which casually killed off beloved characters offscreen like it was going out of fashion.

[Talakeal]

If you're not interested in something, you're not interested in something. There's no accounting for taste. But equally, don't try to pass that off as some kind of objective quality control in order to damn something you haven't even watched.

For what it's worth, I would probably have agreed with you about the "don't kill off all your characters off screen before you start" thing, before watching the film. But I'm glad I did watch it, because for my money Logan is one of the best superhero movies ever made.

And because I can't help myself, I will note that that point isn't rammed down one's throat. We don't know exactly what happened, and the characters don't talk about it, but we know something did, and it was bad. The movie absolutely leaves room for the assumption that <your favourite X-men character who doesn't appear in this movie> survived - which immediately renders it superior to, say, Last Stand or Apocalypse which casually killed off beloved characters offscreen like it was going out of fashion.

Who did Apocalypse kill off? Just Havok and Angel, right?

[lord_khaine]

If you're not interested in something, you're not interested in something. There's no accounting for taste. But equally, don't try to pass that off as some kind of objective quality control in order to damn something you haven't even watched.

I suspect that rant were regarding Old Man Logan, the comic.
Not Logan, the movie. Where one in seemingly even more extreme in how crappy the world is.

[Aedilred]

Who did Apocalypse kill off? Just Havok and Angel, right?

I was confusing it with Days of Future Past, whoops. It was the Banshee, Azazel, Angel and Emma Frost list I was thinking of.

[Cikomyr]

All right. I loved that movie. In a vacuum, it was damn good, but I think everyone here can agree that this is a movie that properly sticked the (l)ending.

So many franchises just failed miserably in doing a good and proper resolution to their plotline. But the Avengers did it. You have to give them props for this at least.

Spoiler territory:

Spoiler

Show

Both Iron Man and Captain America are done.

Iron Man died.
Captain America finally lived.

I am sorry, but I just find that beautiful.

[GloatingSwine]

Spoiler

Show

Both Iron Man and Captain America are done.

Iron Man died.
Captain America finally lived.

I am sorry, but I just find that beautiful.

Spoiler

Show

The most selfish man alive sacrificed his life, the most selfless man alive finally got to have one.

[deuterio12]

Spoiler

Show

The most selfish man alive sacrificed his life, the most selfless man alive finally got to have one.

Spoiler

Show

Iron Man would've died anyway since Thanos was too strong to be stopped whitout using the gauntlet so Tony just decided to take him and his army down with him, selfish to the end.

[Giggling Ghast]

Saw it yesterday. Really great film. I squared at the final fight, and I blubbered a little at the funeral.

Incidentally, if you were like me and were wondering who that random teenager was standing by himself, apparently it was the young boy who Tony briefly befriended in Iron Man 3.

Just one thing I need to clarify: am I correct in assuming that time travel in MCU works by Dragon Ball Z rules? When you travel back in time, you create a branching timeline while your own past remains unaffected?

All right. I loved that movie. In a vacuum, it was damn good, but I think everyone here can agree that this is a movie that properly sticked the (l)ending.

So many franchises just failed miserably in doing a good and proper resolution to their plotline. But the Avengers did it. You have to give them props for this at least.

Spoiler territory:

Spoiler

Show

Both Iron Man and Captain America are done.

Iron Man died.
Captain America finally lived.

I am sorry, but I just find that beautiful.

Indeed. Well said.

[Cikomyr]

Saw it yesterday. Really great film. I squared at the final fight, and I blubbered a little at the funeral.

Incidentally, if you were like me and were wondering who that random teenager was standing by himself, apparently it was the young boy who Tony briefly befriended in Iron Man 3.

Just one thing I need to clarify: am I correct in assuming that time travel in MCU works by Dragon Ball Z rules? When you travel back in time, you create a branching timeline while your own past remains unaffected?

Got it in one