Avengers: Endgame Discussion Thread

[Aotrs Commander]

Incidentally, if you were like me and were wondering who that random teenager was standing by himself, apparently it was the young boy who Tony briefly befriended in Iron Man 3.

I had actually, until someone mentioned it up-thread. It was really neat they included him, had I but known it.

[Delicious Taffy]

Just one thing I need to clarify: am I correct in assuming that time travel in MCU works by Dragon Ball Z rules?

It does, and thank Zeno for that. For once, a universe operating on DBZ rules is a net positive.

[Zevox]

Just one thing I need to clarify: am I correct in assuming that time travel in MCU works by Dragon Ball Z rules? When you travel back in time, you create a branching timeline while your own past remains unaffected?

More or less. It does seem as though there's one subtle but important difference, in that it's the act of changing something in the past that causes the timelines to branch out, not just the act of traveling there - hence why they're able to prevent some branching by returning the Infinity Stones after they're done with them. Otherwise though, yeah, same basic concept.

[Rakaydos]

More or less. It does seem as though there's one subtle but important difference, in that it's the act of changing something in the past that causes the timelines to branch out, not just the act of traveling there - hence why they're able to prevent some branching by returning the Infinity Stones after they're done with them. Otherwise though, yeah, same basic concept.

I'm not sure I agree- you can have similar timelines (parallel universes) but most of the changes were significant enough that just returning a power stone wouldn't be enough to reset continuity.

On the other hand, there's the other aspect of DBZ time travel in play as well- once a timeline is split, you can travel into the split timeline's future without further splitting it, and return to your own timeline's future without splitting it.

[Zevox]

I'm not sure I agree- you can have similar timelines (parallel universes) but most of the changes were significant enough that just returning a power stone wouldn't be enough to reset continuity.

Oh, some of them had other changes that would result in a split timeline too, certainly - mainly Thanos time-traveling into the future and not surviving to return and Loki escaping with the Space Stone. But the main point is that they were able to avoid creating timelines where the universe suffered negative consequences from the removal of the stones, like Dormammu conquering the universe because Doctor Strange didn't have the Time Stone to bargain with. Dragon Ball time-travel wouldn't allow that, so there's a slight but important difference there.

[Draconi Redfir]

a thought i just had while reading the past few posts.

Gamora and nebula in 2014 are gone. so even if 2014 quill wakes up and the rest of his story plays out like normal, then... There's only rocket and Groot trying to capture him, meaning Rocket/Groot probably grabs him and takes him in, meaning they don't go to prison with him, they don't escape, and the guardians of the galaxy never form.


So Whatsisname probably gets the power stone and destroys Xandar no problem.

[HolyDraconus]

Oh, some of them had other changes that would result in a split timeline too, certainly - mainly Thanos time-traveling into the future and not surviving to return and Loki escaping with the Space Stone. But the main point is that they were able to avoid creating timelines where the universe suffered negative consequences from the removal of the stones, like Dormammu conquering the universe because Doctor Strange didn't have the Time Stone to bargain with. Dragon Ball time-travel wouldn't allow that, so there's a slight but important difference there.

Trunks going back in time the second time closed off a lot of branches though.

[Wookieetank]

So Whatsisname probably gets the power stone and destroys Xandar no problem.

Except Ronan the Accuser got the power stone from Thanos (IIRC, been a min since I've seen GotG1), so Groot & Rocket most likely end up with the stone after capturing Quill and/or sell it to the collector. Granted Ronan could then get it from the collector, but he'd have to know its there first. So much fanfiction fuel with the effects of the time travel shenanigans.

[Rodin]

Except Ronan the Accuser got the power stone from Thanos (IIRC, been a min since I've seen GotG1), so Groot & Rocket most likely end up with the stone after capturing Quill and/or sell it to the collector. Granted Ronan could then get it from the collector, but he'd have to know its there first. So much fanfiction fuel with the effects of the time travel shenanigans.

That's incorrect - the stone is initially in the ruins where Quill retrieves it. It's in his possession from then until he tries to sell it to the Collector, where Ronan and Nebula show up and steal it. Ronan then reneges on his deal with Thanos, under the presumption that with the Power Stone he could beat Thanos (whether that's feasible or not is unclear) and heads off on his own to blow up Xandar.

[Lapak]

That's incorrect - the stone is initially in the ruins where Quill retrieves it. It's in his possession from then until he tries to sell it to the Collector, where Ronan and Nebula show up and steal it. Ronan then reneges on his deal with Thanos, under the presumption that with the Power Stone he could beat Thanos (whether that's feasible or not is unclear) and heads off on his own to blow up Xandar.

Ronan only knows where it is because Drax calls him, and without the side trip to prison (or even with it, without Gamora) there is no Drax to tell him. In fact, without Thanos he might not even know of its existence or significance. So... Rocket and Groot end up with it, and blow themselves up? Or discard the orb as space junk? Really tough to say, except that it is somewhat unlikely that Ronan ends up with it in anything like the same way. Could end up confiscated by the Nova Corps, could be turned into a super-bomb by Rocket's tinkering, who knows. Ronan probably continues to be a rogue terrorist hassling Nova for who knows how long to come, but has no way to threaten Xandar as a whole.

[Giggling Ghast]

a thought i just had while reading the past few posts.

Gamora and nebula in 2014 are gone. so even if 2014 quill wakes up and the rest of his story plays out like normal, then... There's only rocket and Groot trying to capture him, meaning Rocket/Groot probably grabs him and takes him in, meaning they don't go to prison with him, they don't escape, and the guardians of the galaxy never form.

So Whatsisname probably gets the power stone and destroys Xandar no problem.

Hold on now. That timeline ALSO no longer has Thanos in it, and the whole reason Ronan was seeking the orb (which he didn’t know contained an Infinity Stone) was to make a deal with Thanos to destroy Xandar. With Thanos now gone, he no longer has a reason to retrieve it, except curiosity.

So in all likelihood, Quill is captured by Rocket and Groot, who turn him over to Yondu for the bounty. Yondu forgives Quill (or kills him) and finds another buyer for the orb (probably the Collector) since his original buyer has no interest in it. Meanwhile, Ronan continues his war against the Nova Corps, never realizing the immense power that slipped through his fingers.

[Draconi Redfir]

Hold on now. That timeline ALSO no longer has Thanos in it, and the whole reason Ronan was seeking the orb (which he didn’t know contained an Infinity Stone) was to make a deal with Thanos to destroy Xandar. With Thanos now gone, he no longer has a reason to retrieve it, except curiosity.

So in all likelihood, Quill is captured by Rocket and Groot, who turns him over to Yondu for the bounty. Yondu forgives Quill (or kills him) and finds another buyer for the orb (probably the Collector) since his original buyer has no interest in it. Meanwhile, Ronan continues his war against the Nova Corps, never realizing the immense power that slipped through his fingers.

suppose that could also happen yes :P

to be fair, only saw guardians 1 that first time years ago.

[Wookieetank]

Hold on now. That timeline ALSO no longer has Thanos in it, and the whole reason Ronan was seeking the orb (which he didn’t know contained an Infinity Stone) was to make a deal with Thanos to destroy Xandar. With Thanos now gone, he no longer has a reason to retrieve it, except curiosity.

So in all likelihood, Quill is captured by Rocket and Groot, who turns him over to Yondu for the bounty. Yondu forgives Quill (or kills him) and finds another buyer for the orb (probably the Collector) since his original buyer has no interest in it. Meanwhile, Ronan continues his war against the Nova Corps, never realizing the immense power that slipped through his fingers.

This timeline will also end up with the Collector having 2 of the stones again, since Thor: Dark World will be unchanged with the absence of Thanos/Gamora/Nebula. Already having 2 of the 6 and not having to compete with Thanos for them, the Collector can go on to get the other 4 and then use their power to add the entire universe to his collection.

[Friv]

This timeline will also end up with the Collector having 2 of the stones again, since Thor: Dark World will be unchanged with the absence of Thanos/Gamora/Nebula. Already having 2 of the 6 and not having to compete with Thanos for them, the Collector can go on to get the other 4 and then use their power to add the entire universe to his collection.

Based on how poorly the Collector protected two Gems (keep in mind that his slave was able to grab it from him while he was monologuing, blowing up a chunk of his collection) I don't think we have much to worry about him successfully collecting the rest. Out of them:

• The Space Stone probably stays with the Tesserect, which Loki steals and takes with the Asgardians after Ragnarock.
• The Time Stone stays with Dr. Strange.
• The Mind Stone stays with the Vision.
• The Soul Stone is off on Vormir.

My theory about how this timeline shakes out, following the Law Of Things Happen Narratively:

1. Nothing on Earth changes until Thanos gets involved again, which means the Captain America, Iron Man, and Avengers movies are all the same until Infinity War.
2. Quill wakes up with the Power Stone, runs from the Kree, and ends up on Xander. Thanks to the law of ludicrous results, Groot and Rocket go after him, and the three of them end up locked up in jail for making a disturbance, where they befriend Drax. Quasar shows up, to be a rogue anti-Ronan Kree, and gets the plot back on track (or possibly Moondragon does it. Either works.) Drax in this timeline is drunk and angry because Thanos vanished and he can't get revenge. Eventually a very different chain of events leads to Ego finding them and them having to fight him.
3. Thor runs the same until Ragnarock, and then has a movie about the refugees of Asgard. I think we probably get a fun Loki heist story about Loki and the Collector going after each others' gems in this timeline.

[Rodin]

Ronan only knows where it is because Drax calls him, and without the side trip to prison (or even with it, without Gamora) there is no Drax to tell him. In fact, without Thanos he might not even know of its existence or significance. So... Rocket and Groot end up with it, and blow themselves up? Or discard the orb as space junk? Really tough to say, except that it is somewhat unlikely that Ronan ends up with it in anything like the same way. Could end up confiscated by the Nova Corps, could be turned into a super-bomb by Rocket's tinkering, who knows. Ronan probably continues to be a rogue terrorist hassling Nova for who knows how long to come, but has no way to threaten Xandar as a whole.

New head-canon - that timeline ends in a massive, galaxy-wide supernova. The last words uttered are Rocket saying "WORTH IT."

[Palanan]

Speaking of Rocket...was it just me, or did he seem a little older, slower and toned-down compared to GotG 1?

Not sure if that was deliberate, or just a consequence of his having much less screen time (and less opportunity to be annoying) in the broader ensemble of Endgame.

[LaZodiac]

Speaking of Rocket...was it just me, or did he seem a little older, slower and toned-down compared to GotG 1?

Not sure if that was deliberate, or just a consequence of his having much less screen time (and less opportunity to be annoying) in the broader ensemble of Endgame.

Rocket is a very small and depressed raccoon man who spent 5 years with everyone he knew and loved being dead. Guy's gonna mellow out after a bit.

But yeah, probably also related to less screen time. I imagine in Guardians 3 he'll be back to his more chipper self.

[Reddish Mage]

Didn't Rocket tell us in Guardians One that his life expectancy is something like 8 to 13 years or something? He may be approaching the end, or at least old age.

Spoiler: GOG3 James Gunn Interview

Show

James Gunn says Rocket's story is going to be "finished" in the next movie

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Reddish Mage
Didn't Rocket tell us in Guardians One that his life expectancy is something like 8 to 13 years or something?

I thought he said five years, but I only saw the movie the one time when it came out, so that could be a faded memory.

[Jeivar]

I thought he said five years, but I only saw the movie the one time when it came out, so that could be a faded memory.

As I recall he just stated that his life expectancy wasn't all that long, without going into details.

[Anteros]

Quill doesn't get the stone anyway in that timeline even if they return it given that he's knocked unconscious on the ground. Those other guys that show up who he fights in the intro probably get it.

[Rodin]

Quill doesn't get the stone anyway in that timeline even if they return it given that he's knocked unconscious on the ground. Those other guys that show up who he fights in the intro probably get it.

I believe those dudes were working for Ronan (it's how he learns Quill has it in the first place), so that means Ronan gets the power stone and goes and destroys Xandar.

[Bartmanhomer]

Did Endgame beat Avatar yet?

[Ranxerox]

I believe those dudes were working for Ronan (it's how he learns Quill has it in the first place), so that means Ronan gets the power stone and goes and destroys Xandar.

Well, that could have happened if they hadn't gotten their butts kicked by America's own ass.

[HMS Invincible]

Did Endgame beat Avatar yet?

There's a big drop off reported last week, probably not going to make it due to the good movies coming up. Avatar had easier competition, and may have been rereleased to boost earnings

[archon_huskie]

I believe those dudes were working for Ronan (it's how he learns Quill has it in the first place), so that means Ronan gets the power stone and goes and destroys Xandar.

Also possible that Ronan and co ended up as part of Thanos's army.

[Maloney]

This thread is fully spoilers, so I can say whatever, right?

Personally, I like to think that in the final snap by iron man, he was also undoing a bunch of the time travel shenanigans. We've seen that there aren't hard and fast rules to what the stones can do: individually the stones do lots of different things, and each time that they're all snapped together they also have pretty unclear and inconsistent rules depending on what the wielder wants, if all life was just *brought back* when Hulk snapped, wouldn't they all be snapped to wherever the Earth was in space five years ago? Surely some people would be brought back inside of objects, but there's no indication to that. Considering that at least one of the stones has a mind and one has a soul, the stones together are probably acting as a sentient being interpreting the wishes of the wielder. Tony would be smarter than to wind up making a paradox by just killing Thanos and his fleet, and probably just deleted the versions that time traveled to the future, leaving the originals to live through time intact.

[Rakaydos]

This thread is fully spoilers, so I can say whatever, right?

Personally, I like to think that in the final snap by iron man, he was also undoing a bunch of the time travel shenanigans. We've seen that there aren't hard and fast rules to what the stones can do: individually the stones do lots of different things, and each time that they're all snapped together they also have pretty unclear and inconsistent rules depending on what the wielder wants, if all life was just *brought back* when Hulk snapped, wouldn't they all be snapped to wherever the Earth was in space five years ago? Surely some people would be brought back inside of objects, but there's no indication to that. Considering that at least one of the stones has a mind and one has a soul, the stones together are probably acting as a sentient being interpreting the wishes of the wielder. Tony would be smarter than to wind up making a paradox by just killing Thanos and his fleet, and probably just deleted the versions that time traveled to the future, leaving the originals to live through time intact.

No need, alternate timelines are Someone Elses's Problem. The reason they returned the stones is because Alternate Timeline Anceient One is one of the someones who has to deal, and bargained to have the stone returned.

There's five major timelies now:
Main canon: Stones destroyed, 5 years, unsnap.
Loki Escapes: Battle of New York, Hydra believes Captian is a hydra agent, ect.
Thor 2 Remake: The events of Thor 2 are subtly altered, but we dont see the new direction they take. Lots of opportunity there.
Thanos abandons the hunt for the stones: Invades main timeline, never returns. Power vacuum.
Captian Retires in the Past: After stealing pym particles, Captian retires as the husband of the Director of Shield. Insider knowelege of Ancient one, Hydra, Winter Soldier, Ballroom/Black Widow, Mar-Vel, ect. mean that Shield is much better off than the main canon.

[Ramza00]

Did Endgame beat Avatar yet?

25 days in for Avengers: Endgame

$2.620 billion Avengers: Endgame
$2,788 billion Avatar

so Endgame is 94% of the way there.

[Friv]

No need, alternate timelines are Someone Elses's Problem. The reason they returned the stones is because Alternate Timeline Anceient One is one of the someones who has to deal, and bargained to have the stone returned.

There's five major timelies now:
Main canon: Stones destroyed, 5 years, unsnap.
Loki Escapes: Battle of New York, Hydra believes Captian is a hydra agent, ect.
Thor 2 Remake: The events of Thor 2 are subtly altered, but we dont see the new direction they take. Lots of opportunity there.
Thanos abandons the hunt for the stones: Invades main timeline, never returns. Power vacuum.
Captian Retires in the Past: After stealing pym particles, Captian retires as the husband of the Director of Shield. Insider knowelege of Ancient one, Hydra, Winter Soldier, Ballroom/Black Widow, Mar-Vel, ect. mean that Shield is much better off than the main canon.

Minor quibble - since "escape"-Cap made a comment about seeing Loki and trying to stop him when going after our-Cap, it's most likely that HYDRA in that timeline only believes that Loki knows about Hydra, rather than still believing that Cap is a Hydra agent.