Avengers: Endgame Discussion Thread

[Legato Endless]

Cap sure, I was talking about Falcon and Bucky. Falcon hasn't had much play really outside of being a supporting character (which may not change) and Bucky dying here after several previous 'deaths' and finally recovering a little would be odd. Killing those two also has a weird effect in downplaying the drama if Cap dies or leaves by removing the two people who would be the most affected by his absence.

As for being forced to bring them back, Marvel already has movies where all the heroes don't show up even when a crisis hits. But that's just my objective listing of cinematic fact

[Devonix]

Put a video up on my channel about who I think bites it. And it seems to really run counter to a lot of you guys, in particular My biggest thoughts on someone dieing if anyone would be Black Widow or Hawkeye.

[Clertar]

My biggest thoughts on someone dieing if anyone would be Black Widow or Hawkeye.

https://www.movienewsnet.com/2019/03...-lead-villain/

[Devonix]

https://www.movienewsnet.com/2019/03...-lead-villain/

Yeah but from what I hear it's a prequel movie from before her joining shield. So that doesn't mean she survives.

[Calemyr]

https://www.movienewsnet.com/2019/03...-lead-villain/

Yeah but from what I hear it's a prequel movie from before her joining shield. So that doesn't mean she survives.

Kind of a curious concept, it's true, the idea of creating a prequel for someone you already think of as dead.

That said, didn't they do just that with the Dumbeldore in the Fantastic Beast movies? Not a Potter fan, me, so I'm not certain, but I thought that was the case.

[Bartmanhomer]

We're already discussing Endgame which hasn't been out in theatres yet. Ok. I hope that the Beyonder will appear or some other powerful entity will beat Thanos.

[The Glyphstone]

Kind of a curious concept, it's true, the idea of creating a prequel for someone you already think of as dead.

That said, didn't they do just that with the Dumbeldore in the Fantastic Beast movies? Not a Potter fan, me, so I'm not certain, but I thought that was the case.

Dumbledore is in the FB movies, but it's not really a story about him. He's more like a plot dispenser for the main characters.

[Legato Endless]

We're already discussing Endgame which hasn't been out in theatres yet. Ok. I hope that the Beyonder will appear or some other powerful entity will beat Thanos.

I think audiences would riot if that happened. Carol is already divisive as the Johnny-come-lately 11th hour hero.

[Rodin]

The Black Widow prequel definitely makes me think she will survive and not retire until after the prequel hits cinemas. This is purely down to the aesthetics of it - you don't give a character (and actress) a big swansong finale and then immediately do a prequel film. It ruins the moment in the audience's mind. Having them show up as secondary mentor characters in later films is different - they're present, but the story is no longer about them. A full film after the character has been officially retired though? I don't see it.

[understatement]

We're already discussing Endgame which hasn't been out in theatres yet. Ok. I hope that the Beyonder will appear or some other powerful entity will beat Thanos.

That would be visually awesome and a literal deux ex machina .

Also, how are the Asgardians going to fit into this?

[Kitten Champion]

I think audiences would riot if that happened. Carol is already divisive as the Johnny-come-lately 11th hour hero.

I mean, the Beyonder would be extremely confusing for many reasons, but this is supposed to be the (loose) adaptation of the Infinity Gauntlet story where Marvel's transcendental cosmic beings do play a role. Admittedly they fail, which avoided a dues ex machina ending to stop the villain that would've been boring, but still, they're there.

I just, they've had at least three Avengers movies thus far, 3.5 if you include Civil War. Whatever else can be said about them they didn't write the other heroes as standing around watching Thor or Hulk fight like it was an episode of Dragonball Z or something, the Avengers movies have been about the Avengers as a team.

It's one of the criticisms I'd launch at the X-Men movies outside of maybe First Class, that they largely forgot individuals and powers existed when it inconvenienced either their budget or their spot-light focus on Wolverine. Marvel Studios has a broader strategy to their universe in terms of breadth and development, which makes turning Endgame into the Captain Marvel show a losing proposition the same way making Infinity War all about Black Panther or Doctor Strange would've been counter-productive just because they're the new Marvel IPs that they're obviously going to push for presumably two more movies each at least -- they're selling the universe in its long-term viability with these movies and not any specific marketable character has complete preeminence in this.

[Bartmanhomer]

I think audiences would riot if that happened. Carol is already divisive as the Johnny-come-lately 11th hour hero.

Why? It happened in the comic books, why can't it happen in the movies.

That would be visually awesome and a literal deux ex machina .

Also, how are the Asgardians going to fit into this?

I don't know to be honest.

[Aotrs Commander]

Why? It happened in the comic books, why can't it happen in the movies.

Well, for one thing, let's remember that "it happened in the comics," is something that may be true, but not necessarily a particularly a good or worthwhile idea.

*cough*OneMoreDay*cough*Avengers200*cough*Ultimatu m*cough*UltimatePietroBangingHisSister*cough*M-Day*cough*JubileeTurnedIntoAVampire*cough*

[Bartmanhomer]

Well, for one thing, let's remember that "it happened in the comics," is something that may be true, but not necessarily a particularly a good or worthwhile idea.

*cough*OneMoreDay*cough*Avengers200*cough*Ultimatu m*cough*UltimatePietroBangingHisSister*cough*M-Day*cough*JubileeTurnedIntoAVampire*cough*

Ok if it not going to copy anything out of the comics then they're going to do something different then. Different I can accept.

[Reddish Mage]

I mean, the Beyonder would be extremely confusing for many reasons, but this is supposed to be the (loose) adaptation of the Infinity Gauntlet story where Marvel's transcendental cosmic beings do play a role. Admittedly they fail, which avoided a dues ex machina ending to stop the villain that would've been boring, but still, they're there.

Is there a reason to think Beyonder or anyone on the Celestial level will show up? Other than Ego (who is relatively powered down) Marvel's cosmic-godlike beings have yet to be introduced (but are due for a movie).

The fact that they are in the comic is a weak reason, a movie is a better reason, but what story purpose would these beings serve unless they cameo as a cheap plot device or a deus-ex-machina?

[Kitten Champion]

Is there a reason to think Beyonder or anyone on the Celestial level will show up? Other than Ego (who is relatively powered down) Marvel's cosmic-godlike beings have yet to be introduced (but are due for a movie).

The fact that they are in the comic is a weak reason, a movie is a better reason, but what story purpose would these beings serve unless they cameo as a cheap plot device or a deus-ex-machina?

Not the Beyonder, no, he's not related to the Infinity Gauntlet story-line in any respect and why would you bring in the entity responsible for Secret Wars when you're doing this? You'd be confusing both comic readers and everyone else at the same time.

As to the role cosmic entities would play, I could see the The Living Tribunal showing up after the end of the main conflict to judge Thanos (give him a straightforward PG-13 demise) or to take the Infinity Stones away so the audience knows they'll never be used as a plot device again. As they aren't comics, there's no real reason to keep either the Stones or Thanos around for some nebulous later Event.


Though I will nitpickily point out that Dormammu was a thing too.

[Devonix]

You have to remember that the entire purpose of the Cosmic enteties in the Infinity Gauntlet story is so that they can Job for Thanos to showcase that the Infinity Gauntlet let's him punch so far above his weight class, that even they can't stop him.

That's something that only works when you establish them as being the top of the food chain and can't be their first appearance.

If they show up, then it doesn't make Thanos look strong, it just makes them look weak for losing to him.

[Kitten Champion]

You have to remember that the entire purpose of the Cosmic enteties in the Infinity Gauntlet story is so that they can Job for Thanos to showcase that the Infinity Gauntlet let's him punch so far above his weight class, that even they can't stop him.

That's something that only works when you establish them as being the top of the food chain and can't be their first appearance.

If they show up, then it doesn't make Thanos look strong, it just makes them look weak for losing to him.

If you're replicating that story beat exactly, sure, but that's not terribly relevant here. Movie Thanos isn't comic Thanos and defeating him isn't technically the goal of the film, it's to undo the Snapture. Assuming reasonably that happens over the course of the movie - because it will - then the heroes will have collected all of these stones giving them god-like powers over the universe that totally undermines the MCU going forward.

Having a cosmic entity show up to clean house at the end - especially the one who's supposed to deal with this crap in the Marvel canon like the Living Tribunal - is one way to confirm to the audience that they won't be able to pull a Superman and reverse time to save Lois Lane any time they want or constantly have to deal with every villain in the universe trying to steal their lucky charms.

...and that's just with a few minutes thought on my part. If you were going to introduce the cosmic-level beings of this setting in any fashion for potential later use, this seems a good time.

[Devonix]

If you're replicating that story beat exactly, sure, but that's not terribly relevant here. Movie Thanos isn't comic Thanos and defeating him isn't technically the goal of the film, it's to undo the Snapture. Assuming reasonably that happens over the course of the movie - because it will - then the heroes will have collected all of these stones giving them god-like powers over the universe that totally undermines the MCU going forward.

Having a cosmic entity show up to clean house at the end - especially the one who's supposed to deal with this crap in the Marvel canon like the Living Tribunal - is one way to confirm to the audience that they won't be able to pull a Superman and reverse time to save Lois Lane any time they want or constantly have to deal with every villain in the universe trying to steal their lucky charms.

...and that's just with a few minutes thought on my part. If you were going to introduce the cosmic-level beings of this setting in any fashion for potential later use, this seems a good time.

I disagree, having a Cosmic entity show up to solve the hero's problems, and one that's never been around before would be the bigges Deus Ex imaginable for me. This is a problem for the heroes to solve on their own.

Bring in Cosmic forces later on.

[Ramza00]

I disagree, having a Cosmic entity show up to solve the hero's problems, and one that's never been around before would be the bigges Deus Ex imaginable for me. This is a problem for the heroes to solve on their own.

Bring in Cosmic forces later on.

Agreed.

We already established that the infinity gems can create surrogate power sources and these children power sources can destroy the original gems. Just do that.

[Warlawk]

I disagree, having a Cosmic entity show up to solve the hero's problems, and one that's never been around before would be the bigges Deus Ex imaginable for me. This is a problem for the heroes to solve on their own.

Bring in Cosmic forces later on.

Now it's been a long time since I read the original Infinity Gauntlet comics (literally, when they were first released) but wasn't Adam Warlock fairly integral to the final conflict? Wasn't Adam Warlock teased at the end of Guardians of the Galaxy 2?

I must admit, I was a bit surprised to see this not mentioned anywhere in this thread yet.

[Cen]

Now it's been a long time since I read the original Infinity Gauntlet comics (literally, when they were first released) but wasn't Adam Warlock fairly integral to the final conflict? Wasn't Adam Warlock teased at the end of Guardians of the Galaxy 2?

I must admit, I was a bit surprised to see this not mentioned anywhere in this thread yet.

Honestly, I can imagine fans raging both ways- either from not including Adam at all (he was main character in comics), or introducing him too late in the story and making him deus ex machina.

[Devonix]

Now it's been a long time since I read the original Infinity Gauntlet comics (literally, when they were first released) but wasn't Adam Warlock fairly integral to the final conflict? Wasn't Adam Warlock teased at the end of Guardians of the Galaxy 2?

I must admit, I was a bit surprised to see this not mentioned anywhere in this thread yet.

Looks more like Adam Warlock is going to be important to Guardians 3 rather than showing up here.

[tyckspoon]

Agreed.

We already established that the infinity gems can create surrogate power sources and these children power sources can destroy the original gems. Just do that.

I'm pretty sure Carol's origins being linked to the Space stone is going to come into play in some way, incidentally. They'll need to destroy it or she'll be able to control its powers as part of an ensemble attempt to group-channel the stones or Thanos will try to use Space powers to fight her and she'll just go 'lol nope' and warp-punch him or something, but it's going to be relevant.

[Ramza00]

Now it's been a long time since I read the original Infinity Gauntlet comics (literally, when they were first released) but wasn't Adam Warlock fairly integral to the final conflict? Wasn't Adam Warlock teased at the end of Guardians of the Galaxy 2?

I must admit, I was a bit surprised to see this not mentioned anywhere in this thread yet.

Adam Warlock was teased as an easter egg in Guardians of the Galaxy 1 for his cocoon was in the Collector's palace.

Adam Warlock was teased as an after credit scene in Guardians of the Galaxy 2, and this tease retcon the first tease in GotG 1 and in inteviews outside the marvel movies and on twitter said the Soverign in GotG2 cocoon trumps the GotG1 coccoon

The cocoon in the 1st GotG (& at Disneyland) is likely a primitive version of the Sovereign cocoons, when they 1st hatched their own.

https://twitter.com/JamesGunn/status/880093123451338752

It is likely Adam Warlock will be in GotG3 but not in Endgame. Who knows what is the state of Warlock with the Gunn firing and re-hiring. In the past Gunn has stated he wants to do Warlock right and thus would not introduce the character merely to introduce the character instead finding the right movie to introduce the character in.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Cen]

So first thoughts fresh from the theather:

Spoiler

Show

No deus ex machina, captain marvel was barely in it. Which was good.
No deus ex machina, not even mentioning Adam Warlock. Which was bad.
Action scenes were great, as usual, Cap being worthy was super awesome.
nice nods to previous movies
Thor 'Lebowski' made me laugh out loud, finally I can tell my girlfriend that i'm in better shape than Thor.
Death count was surprisingly low, only Iron Man and Black Widow? that was strange
Doc Strange one in 14 milion was just rubbish
SERIOUS pacing issus - first 2/3 were dragging in a snail pace, last 1/3 everything happened at once.

6,5/10

[Ramza00]

So my non-spoilery thoughts.

Endgame could not cash the check that Infinity War wanted it to cash. It was a meh action movie, not bad, not great.

That said it will make certain people very happy for it knows how to trigger sentiment in people who have a certain bundle of sentiment tied to the marvel movies, but other people who are fans of the movies will not get this sentiment that is similar to nostalgia while watching the same scenes.

It feels like a Michael Bay movie, a good Bay movie, but at the same time it feels kind of empty, like marshmallow peeps. I hope it makes many MCU fans very happy even though with me I wished it was a different movie, I was hopping for another Guardians movie, or Ragnarok, or Black Panther, or Dr. Strange.

But if you like the Russo Brothers 3 previous MCU movies (CA 2 The Winter Soldier, CA3 Civil War, Avengers 3 Infinity War) you will like the most recent Russo Brothers flick Avengers 4 Endgame.

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So a meh MCU movie that was not bad but definitely not great or grand. Yet it made me smile from time to time so it was worth it

[Rodin]

So my non-spoilery thoughts.

Endgame could not cash the check that Infinity War wanted it to cash. It was a meh action movie, not bad, not great.

That said it will make certain people very happy for it knows how to trigger sentiment in people who have a certain bundle of sentiment tied to the marvel movies, but other people who are fans of the movies will not get this sentiment that is similar to nostalgia while watching the same scenes.

It feels like a Michael Bay movie, a good Bay movie, but at the same time it feels kind of empty, like marshmallow peeps. I hope it makes many MCU fans very happy even though with me I wished it was a different movie, I was hopping for another Guardians movie, or Ragnarok, or Black Panther, or Dr. Strange.

But if you like the Russo Brothers 3 previous MCU movies (CA 2 The Winter Soldier, CA3 Civil War, Avengers 3 Infinity War) you will like the most recent Russo Brothers flick Avengers 4 Endgame.

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So a meh MCU movie that was not bad but definitely not great or grand. Yet it made me smile from time to time so it was worth it

My experience was both the same and very different. I found it to be a love letter to the entire MCU, to everything that brought us this point. A very fitting way to cap what will undoubtedly be known as the Infinity Stone Saga or something like that. I very much did feel the nostalgia you talked about.

I was actually very glad it wasn't another Guardians movie, as I saw GotG2 show up on Netflix and started watching again and wound up turning it off after about half an hour. It was altogether too goofy and the humour felt forced on a re-watch. Endgame was a much more serious movie, and I feel it was better for it.

I can't really say too much more without spoiling stuff, but for me at least it was not the movie I was expecting but the movie that I actually needed. I'm glad they did the movie the way they did, and couldn't ask for anything more out of it. Even the action sequences were actually entertaining!

[Paleomancer]

Just curious... Is Endgame anything like Infinity War? Because I found it unwatchable, as in I honestly couldn't finish watching the film - Thanos is so annoying, and the whole Avengers dysfunction was maddening. I guess what I'm asking is, if if I didn't like Avengers 3, should I give Avengers 4 a miss?

[Rodin]

Just curious... Is Endgame anything like Infinity War? Because I found it unwatchable, as in I honestly couldn't finish watching the film - Thanos is so annoying, and the whole Avengers dysfunction was maddening. I guess what I'm asking is, if if I didn't like Avengers 3, should I give Avengers 4 a miss?

Probably. There's enough developments to the universe that I find it hard to recommend skipping if you intend on sticking with the MCU at all, but there's always plot summaries that will come out later if you absolutely must. Of the two, I think Endgame is the better film overall, but Endgame is tied very closely to Infinity War. If you hated Infinity War then I don't see that changing.