Combat Casting

[Human Paragon 3]

With skill focus: Concentration or Combat Casting, and even a mediocre CON bonus, avoiding attacks of opportunity from spell casting is ridiculously easy, so easy that it makes me wonder why spellcasting even provokes an attack of opportunity to begin with.

Is there a fix for this? Taking the threatening creature's BAB into account might help, making it an opposed roll might help, or just raising the DC by creating a sliding scale might help. I get the feeling that somebody's done this already, but I'd sure like to see the fix.

Also, psions can manifest in a grapple? Holy crap, that seems unbalanced. Even DC 20+Level Concentration check is shockingly easy past level 10.

[technomancer]

Don't sweat it. Fighters can fight when other people and standing next to them, so why can't spellcasters cast when other people are standing next to them?

Besides, once you get to the levels where you can consistently make the concentration check, if you're in melee with someone, you're doing it wrong. Fly is a pretty low level spell that pretty much negates AoOs from casting in melee.

[Human Paragon 3]

Also levitate. But flying enemies fix that, ditto for low ceilings.

As for why spellcasters can't cast spells while people are standing next to them, they can. It just provokes an attack of opportunity, since you're standing their waving your arms and chanting. Unless you cast defensively, which, thankfully for mages, is easy as pie.

[Mavian]

There's a feat... I wanna say Mage Slayer, from the Complete Arcane.

Makes it so that if you threaten, people can't cast defensively. Combine it with Stand Still from EPH, which allows you to stop them from 5-foot steppin away from you.

[Arbitrarity]

There's a feat... I wanna say Mage Slayer, from the Complete Arcane.

Makes it so that if you threaten, people can't cast defensively. Combine it with Stand Still from EPH, which allows you to stop them from 5-foot steppin away from you.

Stand still doesn't block 5 ft steps. You mean Thicket of Blades (Crusader 3, Stance)?

[Mavian]

That mighta been what I was thinkin, my mind has a tendency to wander. Or of course, you could always just use a Spike Chain, so that if they do 5-foot, you can still whack'em when they try to cast.

[Arbitrarity]

Very true.

Spiked chain: The only exotic weapon it's actually worth spending a feat on!

[Clementx]

I recently came to the same conclusion, and by adding the highest BAB among the threatening creatures, casting defensively has become a desperation tactic. As is, after lvl10 or so, just maxing out Concentration means you can autoavoid AoOs on your highest level spells on a roll of 1 (assuming a moderate Con score or a really cheap Conc bonus item). Using BAB as a modifier means that being next to a tank-like opponent of equal CR (Dragons, for example) leaves you with only a 30%ish non-optimized chance of making your best spell defensive. PC races are a bit more forgiving when it comes to BAB, but still not absolute. So you either have casters sucking it up and taking Skill Focus (Conc), spending more spell slots on redundant defenses, dealing with the threat with lower-level spells, or sucking it up and using the Withdraw action.

All good things in a world where casters blow melee out of the water.

[Kurobara]

Honestly, unless you're really concerned about the low levels (before you meet the prereq - I want to say it's 6 ranks?) or are going core-only, I'm inclined to say Steady Concentration from Races of Stone is better than either Combat Casting or Skill Focus (Concentration) if you're going to bother sinking a feat into Concentration at all. I like getting to take 10 and not even having to worry about those rolls that I can fail if I roll like a 2.

[Human Paragon 3]

I think you mis-heard the original complaint, Korubara. I'm actually worried that it's too easy to make your concentration checks.

[Jasdoif]

Also, psions can manifest in a grapple? Holy crap, that seems unbalanced. Even DC 20+Level Concentration check is shockingly easy past level 10.

You can also cast a spell while grappling, provided you have its material component/focus (if any) in hand and it doesn't have somatic components (say, casting dimension door to get out of the grapple).

Also, consider that freedom of movement makes you immune to grappling, period. And comes in your choice of spell, power or ring form. You'll want to address that somehow, before worrying about the ability to cast/manifest in a grapple.

[Draz74]

I say Defensive Casting shouldn't even exist as a default option. Make it so the Combat Casting feat lets casters have the option of Casting Defensively.

That, plus something to nerf 5-foot-steps, should make things much more interesting. Any suggestions on how to keep the almighty 5-foot-step?

[Mike_G]

I think all casting in melee should provoke an attack of opportunity. If even throwing a punch provokes an AoO, then weaving your fingers and chanting sure should.

If an enemy actually gets through to the wizard, they should get some free noogies in. It's frustrating to actually make the saves and evade stuff and tumble past the guards and get in stabbity range of the wizard to have him still get to cast his way out of things with a wussy Con check.

[Jasdoif]

That, plus something to nerf 5-foot-steps, should make things much more interesting. Any suggestions on how to keep the almighty 5-foot-step?

That might be going overboard, as other characters then casters can make use of 5-foot-steps too.

That said, perhaps a rule that when making a 5-foot-step, you are still considered to be in your starting square for the purpose of determining if you are subject to AoOs for distracting actions taken during the same turn. We'll call it "en passant"

[ocato]

Well, if the wizard is dopey enough that your options are 'they roll or get an AoO when casting' or 'they are rightfully afraid to be near you and therefore rain death from above while flying', I'd rather lose the AoO and keep the option of whomping him on my turn.

Sure! Cast defensively! But on my turn, Power Attack's a comin' and you ain't got the HPs to survive it. Hope your scorching ray was worth it.

Again, this is all assuming a dopey wizard who thinks walking around next to fighters and barbarians is fine and dandy.

[Frosty]

That's why I <3 Beguilers. They are casters with Tumble as a class skill! Tumble away, and then cast!

[Roderick_BR]

The problem with defensive casting is that for every 2 levels you rise, you can gain 2 ranks to Concentration, while rising 1 spell level. At level 17, you are casting level 9 spells, a DC of 19, and you're likely to have 20 ranks in concentration, before even adding Con, focus, etc.
I think I saw someone saying that to make the roll harder, you could add the effective caster level. Casting a 9th level spell at level 20 would be a DC 39. With 23 ranks, you'd still need to roll only a 16. Add Skill Focus, and a good Cons (let's say +4), you'd need to roll a 9. With Combat Casting, a 5. Almost too easy.

I say Defensive Casting shouldn't even exist as a default option. Make it so the Combat Casting feat lets casters have the option of Casting Defensively.

I think that would be an interesting nerf for casters. Keep the +4 bonus, like others feats (Improved Disarm, Improved Bull Rush) do.

(...)Besides, once you get to the levels where you can consistently make the concentration check, if you're in melee with someone, you're doing it wrong. Fly is a pretty low level spell that pretty much negates AoOs from casting in melee.

And what if you can't move away? Monsters that pop out of nowhere right close to you, something you suddenly meet when making a turn in a corridor (yeah, you're likely to send the druid first, I know), anything that cancel the use of flight (AMF, strong winds, dispells, low ceiling).
Sometimes whatever buff you have will vanish exactly when an enemy strikes. That's a bit situational, but happens all the time.

(...)I'm inclined to say Steady Concentration from Races of Stone is better than either Combat Casting or Skill Focus (Concentration) if you're going to bother sinking a feat into Concentration at all. I like getting to take 10 and not even having to worry about those rolls that I can fail if I roll like a 2.

That's a very powerful feat. At level, let's say, 7, you are casting 4th level spells. DC 14. You'll have 10 ranks in Concentration. Take 10 means you'll have a roll of 20. Enough to cast even level 9 spells.

[Mike_G]

Well, if the wizard is dopey enough that your options are 'they roll or get an AoO when casting' or 'they are rightfully afraid to be near you and therefore rain death from above while flying', I'd rather lose the AoO and keep the option of whomping him on my turn.

Sure! Cast defensively! But on my turn, Power Attack's a comin' and you ain't got the HPs to survive it. Hope your scorching ray was worth it.

The thing is, his Otto's Irresistible Dance or Tasha's Hideous Laughter against your crappy Fighter Will save will be worth it, even if his Scorching Ray isn't

"Congrats, by careful use of terrain, tactics, skill and blind luck you got through to melee range of the BBEG caster. Too bad he rolled a 2 on his Concentration check. Now make a save or ..oh, wait, you don't get a save. Go roll up a new PC. Why not try and roll up a caster next time?"

[Chronos]

Any suggestions on how to keep the almighty 5-foot-step?

The way I'd fix the 5-foot-step is to allow it to be taken as an immediate action (i.e., on someone else's turn). The wizard just stepped away from you to cast a spell? You take your step to follow him. This also works for stepping away to use a bow, or any other AoO-provoking action.

Which still doesn't fix the problem that it's too easy to make concentration checks, but hey, one problem at a time.

[GoC]

The problem with defensive casting is that for every 2 levels you rise, you can gain 2 ranks to Concentration, while rising 1 spell level. At level 17, you are casting level 9 spells, a DC of 19, and you're likely to have 20 ranks in concentration, before even adding Con, focus, etc.
I think I saw someone saying that to make the roll harder, you could add the effective caster level. Casting a 9th level spell at level 20 would be a DC 39. With 23 ranks, you'd still need to roll only a 16. Add Skill Focus, and a good Cons (let's say +4), you'd need to roll a 9. With Combat Casting, a 5. Almost too easy.

At lvl 20 you're altering reality at your whim!
I'd say he shouldn't even provoke an AoO at that level (instead of forcing him to use a quickened dimension door).
There should probably be a spell that creats a 5 inch thick Wall of Force around your square only, rendering you immune to melee/touch attacks or grapples for the duration...

[Keld Denar]

The only 2 things I can think of that a player (or NPC) can do to prevent 5' steps is via the knight 3 ability (bulwark of defense) or the stone dragon prestige class stance (which makes a small hill under you which is difficult terrain out to 5 feet.

A would-be meleer can also take a 5' step as part of a readied action, provided he hasn't already moved that turn. This is only moderatly useful, because it involves either starting your turn adjacent to the caster, or getting side-by teleported (via friendly mages dim door or teleport). My occult slayer character uses a combination of a ring of invisibility and flying to scout and as such usually starts encounters in ambush position to take the best advantage of readying a vicious strike (DC 60+ concentration check). Only been burned by see invis a couple times! ;)

[Draz74]

The way I'd fix the 5-foot-step is to allow it to be taken as an immediate action (i.e., on someone else's turn). The wizard just stepped away from you to cast a spell? You take your step to follow him. This also works for stepping away to use a bow, or any other AoO-provoking action.

Which still doesn't fix the problem that it's too easy to make concentration checks, but hey, one problem at a time.

So, someone charges at you, and you use your 5-foot step as an immediate action and move to where the charge can't hit you? This is only one of many problems that would be caused by this Immediate 5 Foot Step ruling. Seems abusable IMHO.

At lvl 20 you're altering reality at your whim!

But should you be? (Answer: yes, but not without limits or in a way that makes you dominate the battle over the rest of your party.)

I'd say he shouldn't even provoke an AoO at that level (instead of forcing him to use a quickened dimension door).

Wait, since when is forcing overpowered casters to burn their limited resources a bad thing? It's bad enough that they don't usually run out of those limited resources as it is. Making it so they don't even need to use up those resources is madness.

There should probably be a spell that creats a 5 inch thick Wall of Force around your square only, rendering you immune to melee/touch attacks or grapples for the duration...

You can always Forcecage yourself or Otiluke's Resilient Sphere yourself. (Or Prismatic Sphere ...) People just usually don't because it prevents your offense just as much as it helps your defense.

[F.L.]

The thing is, his Otto's Irresistible Dance or Tasha's Hideous Laughter against your crappy Fighter Will save will be worth it, even if his Scorching Ray isn't

Otto's Irresistable Dance allows no save. Alas, my desire to have an arcane spellcaster learn Otto's Irresistable Dance Party will be forever out of reach.

Though I suppose with a PRC that turns it into a ray, and a metamagic rod of chain spell, it could work...

[Tyger]

The problem with defensive casting is that for every 2 levels you rise, you can gain 2 ranks to Concentration, while rising 1 spell level. At level 17, you are casting level 9 spells, a DC of 19, and you're likely to have 20 ranks in concentration, before even adding Con, focus, etc.

<stuff>

At level, let's say, 7, you are casting 4th level spells. DC 14. You'll have 10 ranks in Concentration. Take 10 means you'll have a roll of 20. Enough to cast even level 9 spells.

Except the DC, just for the record, is 15+ the spell level, not 10+ spell level. So 9th level spells have a DC for Defensive Casting of 24. And 4th have a DC of 19.

It doesn't invalidate your point at all, (at 17th level, you can have 20 ranks, +CON so still a no-brainer) though it did bear qualification.

Personally, I've never had a real problem with Defensive Casting. If that warrior can swing his oversized spiked chain around his head enough to get the mobility he needs to do damage with it while still dodging blows, the mage can easily twist his fingers into a complicated pattern and say Shazam! while doing it. We don't even make the warrior roll anything.

[GoC]

But should you be? (Answer: yes, but not without limits or in a way that makes you dominate the battle over the rest of your party.)

Attempting to make the characters that can alter reality asweak as the ones who can't isn't going to work. Just give up already.

You can always Forcecage yourself or Otiluke's Resilient Sphere yourself. (Or Prismatic Sphere ...) People just usually don't because it prevents your offense just as much as it helps your defense.

I meant that there should be a high-level spell that allows you to do just that.
Or at least a self-forcecage with immediate action casting time.

[Draz74]

Attempting to make the characters that can alter reality asweak as the ones who can't isn't going to work. Just give up already.

Oh really? In that case, let's duel over it.

Wizard beats Fighter, sure, that's been abundantly proven, and I never really doubted it. But you seem to be claiming that any caster beats any nonmagical character. No matter what house rules or system or anything is being used.

So, Truenamer vs. Warblade? (Custom items not allowed.)
You can use a Warlock instead of a Truenamer if you like. Or an Adept.

[Kaelik]

So, Truenamer vs. Warblade? (Custom items not allowed.)
You can use a Warlock instead of a Truenamer if you like. Or an Adept.

I'll take you up on that challenge with a Warlock. Just to be clear, do Warblades make good ranged fighters? For example, do they have maneuvers that work with ranged weapons?

If the answer is no, I'll be nice and even stay on the ground.

Also, said dual better take place above level 8. I think we all know that a level 1 Warlock isn't going to win without some heavy advantages. (Can we start 300 ft away?)

[Draz74]

I'll take you up on that challenge with a Warlock. Just to be clear, do Warblades make good ranged fighters? For example, do they have maneuvers that work with ranged weapons?

If the answer is no, I'll be nice and even stay on the ground.

Also, said dual better take place above level 8. I think we all know that a level 1 Warlock isn't going to win without some heavy advantages. (Can we start 300 ft away?)

Well, I was actually bluffing to make my point, especially since I don't actually own Tome of Battle. (The real question is, how's caster/noncaster balance going to turn out in my homebrew system?) But hey, why not? I think the Warblade has a pretty good chance. As long as you're planning to fight as a Warlock the way Warlocks normally fight, rather than using some obscure cheesy trick. Since I don't have enough Tome of Battle prowess to build a super cheese-optimized Warblade.

Since you already made the offer about not flying, though, I don't think you're trying to fight dirty. (Warblades don't have much good ranged stuff, except for one 8th-level maneuver. So I would have had to be a Raptoran, or carry some Potions of Fly or similar items if you hadn't made the offer.)

Anything in the Level 9-14 range or so sounds fine to me. (Above that, characters just get too complicated.) 28-point buy? Allowed sources: SRD, PHB II, Complete Arcane/Warrior/Adventurer, Tome of Battle; anything else you need access to? Is multiclassing allowed? How about PrC's? No custom items.

Who's willing to DM? (And I probably won't be able to seriously work on my character design until sometime on the weekend at least.)

[Roderick_BR]

Except the DC, just for the record, is 15+ the spell level, not 10+ spell level. So 9th level spells have a DC for Defensive Casting of 24. And 4th have a DC of 19.

It doesn't invalidate your point at all, (at 17th level, you can have 20 ranks, +CON so still a no-brainer) though it did bear qualification.

Personally, I've never had a real problem with Defensive Casting. If that warrior can swing his oversized spiked chain around his head enough to get the mobility he needs to do damage with it while still dodging blows, the mage can easily twist his fingers into a complicated pattern and say Shazam! while doing it. We don't even make the warrior roll anything.

Oh, you are right. I need to take that in consideration when checking DCs.

[Reinboom]

Warblade and the maneuvers have been released publicly. No need to debate without actually reading based on just not owning the book.

Warblade
Maneuvers

===

As for the current discussion:
Don't forget you can use concentration checks of +50 (IIRC) to cast while grappled despite somatic materials.