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Thread: Monks: Shall I Compare Thee?
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2007-10-01, 03:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Monks: Shall I Compare Thee?
I love talking about Monks. The whole Over/Under powered conversation has been entertaining me for as long as there have been Monks. Especially as so many people respond so emotionally and get everyone else's back up. And more often than not thew whole thing descends into a big "Monks r teh r0x0r/Monks are teh win" shouting match.
Good times.
So, here's the question I want to ask, before we even talk about Monks: to what Class are we comparing Monks? We can all agree that they are underpowered compared to Primary Spellcasters. But then, almost everything is underpowered compared to Primary spellcasters.
Comparing to Fighters is no good. Fighters suck. Ditto Bards. Then there's the Paladin/Ranger underpowered threads...
Which class is the baseline? Which Class has a value of 1, such that every other class can be compared to it and declared under/over/evenly powered?
Barbarian? Sorceror?
And if there's no baseline, aren't we all just talking out of our collective behinds by comparing purely relative entities?Last edited by truemane; 2007-10-01 at 03:33 PM.
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2007-10-01, 03:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Monks: Shall I Compare Thee?
We are. Because like all things related to this game, it depends on the player and the game. In my game, my monk may be quite good, possibly becasue I play him as a clever generalist who uses the abilities he has in creative ways. While in somebody else's game, he may suck, possibly because the player wants to play him as a primary melee character akin to a warblade, which he isn't designed to be.
Last edited by Crow; 2007-10-01 at 03:36 PM.
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2007-10-01, 03:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Monks: Shall I Compare Thee?
Warblade or Duskblade seem the best bets. Duskblade is basically a spellcaster melee character and Warblades use a system similar to spell casting and are very powerful.
Maybe a swordsage as well since they are bang in the middle of everything. They are not quite tank, not quite skill monkey and have something similar but not as powerful as spellcasting yet they are still very good.Last edited by PlatinumJester; 2007-10-01 at 03:50 PM.
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2007-10-01, 04:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Monks: Shall I Compare Thee?
Oh Monk, thou art ill designed
The invisible wizard that flys in the night
through the fort save or be blown over storm
has found out your suckily intergrated class features
and his save-or-die spells
does your PC destroy
Edit: sorry are we supposed to be helpful? Ok, then you've got to look at what the monk class is supposed to do, it's not a frount line melee class, or at least it's not intended to be, it's the support role character that is rewarded by sufficient tactical thought. Making everyone else a bit better and using your environment doesn't get a whole lot of press in quite a lot of groups. The Monks problem is it's tryong to cover too many bases to be easily used so they can fit a variety of roles or none depending on the DM and the group. The Bard or the rogue are his nearest approximates in the Core, but the monk just doesn't fit any kind of mold in the standerd four part party.Last edited by mostlyharmful; 2007-10-01 at 04:31 PM.
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2007-10-01, 05:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Monks: Shall I Compare Thee?
I would say the baseline classes should be the more recent non-full-caster classes; the ToB classes, scouts, duskblades, and so on. Warmage is also a good one.
These classes are generally stronger than the core non-casters, but weaker than core casters. A party made up exclusively of these classes is neither pathetic nor ungodly powerful against a level-appropriate challenge.
Moreover, classes in this tier are, in my experience, the most fun to play.
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2007-10-01, 05:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Monks: Shall I Compare Thee?
Comparing to Fighters is no good. Fighters suck. Ditto Bards. Then there's the Paladin/Ranger underpowered threads...
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2007-10-01, 05:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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2007-10-01, 05:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Monks: Shall I Compare Thee?
Originally Posted by Tor the Fallen
Eh?
Eh?
Yeah, that's right: Samurai got nuttin' on da Monk.
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2007-10-01, 05:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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2007-10-01, 05:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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2007-10-01, 06:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Monks: Shall I Compare Thee?
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2007-10-01, 06:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Monks: Shall I Compare Thee?
Out of the base core classes, I'd say the baseline is ranger. It does its job very well, has true usable strengths and weaknesses, and doesn't eat up a million party roles easily.
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2007-10-01, 06:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Monks: Shall I Compare Thee?
We are. Because like all things related to this game, it depends on the player and the game. In my game, my monk may be quite good, possibly becasue I play him as a clever generalist who uses the abilities he has in creative ways.Last edited by TO_Incognito; 2007-10-01 at 06:34 PM.
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2007-10-01, 06:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Monks: Shall I Compare Thee?
I'd like to see it too so I can use it in my games :D
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2007-10-01, 06:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Monks: Shall I Compare Thee?
It's all relative to the specific game, which makes it difficult to get into to due to the many variables involved. A few obvious ones are super long jumps to avoid trapped hallways, or dimension dooring to avoid obstacles or set up flanking. Going ethereal is useful for all sorts of fun. You can tumble up to 40 ft. or springattack from like 90 ft. away...there are all sorts of things you can do with a monk. They have a decent assortment of class skills (which you don't have to max out to be useful).
But like I said, a lot of it is relative to the game and the situations presented. Believe it or not, you can play a fighter "out of the box" too, but most people don't bother to try.Avatar by Aedilred
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2007-10-01, 06:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Monks: Shall I Compare Thee?
I agree that a Ranger makes a pretty good baseline in terms of "neither overpowered, nor bottom of the barrel", also good candidates are Rogues, Bards and Barbarians IMHO. I think Crusaders, Warblades and Swordsages are attempts to balance toward the high ends of Wizards and Clerics, rather than balancing towards the middle, which is a good idea from a game mechanics standpoint. In terms of everything taken together, they're still some of the more powerful classes out there, and not the median.
I'm not an unbiased person to make a Ranger to Monk comparison though, because I'm ridiculously affectionate towards the Ranger, as it's my favorite class. I'd say the Ranger's extra skills, full base attack bonus, exceptional fighting options, and decent class skills make it more than a matchup for the Monk, who I can only see getting eaten alive in melee combat, and having no good ranged options to fall back on. Their utility and mobility doesn't change the fact that once they get where they're going, they can't really do much there.
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2007-10-01, 07:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Monks: Shall I Compare Thee?
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2007-10-01, 10:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Monks: Shall I Compare Thee?
Baseline should be ranger and rogue. They are the two classes that are all that they promise to be, without overshadowing other classes. Comparing monk to swordsage is just silly, swordsage was pretty much designed to replace monk.
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2007-10-01, 11:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Monks: Shall I Compare Thee?
Well, what we really should be comparing with is "CR-appropriate monster encounters, and which party members can contribute meaningfully to such a battle more easily." But that's admittedly hard to measure decisively.
If we need to actually pick a class to compare with ...
If we're talking Core-only, Rogue is best. Though it's slightly weak at higher levels.
If we're talking classes from Core, but with supplements allowed to improve them, then Ranger (using spells from Spell Compendium) becomes slightly better than the rogue and becomes the best comparison.
If you're asking for splatbook base classes that make very good examples of "well-balanced," you could look at Psychic Warrior, Knight, Totemist, Binder, Lurk, Divine Mind, or Dragonfire Adept.
Slightly more powerful than the ones I just listed, but still not really game-breaking like well-played full casters, are things like the Bard (if well built, but not abusive like a Diplomancer), Factotum, Warblade, Crusader, Swordsage, and Duskblade.Last edited by Draz74; 2007-10-01 at 11:07 PM.
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2007-10-01, 11:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Monks: Shall I Compare Thee?
Ode to the Monk:
Shall I compare thee to a summer's day?
Your members are hot and wear little clothing,
Your class features shine bright, and at first they,
Cause newer players to glare with loathing,
But your time of glory does not last,
With levels six and seven past,
The winter of casters and dragons approaches,
Your radiance covered with dust and roaches,
Does little to boost the party - alas!
The tank multiclasses, the casters kick ass,
Take solace with evasion and 'prot,
The battle's custodian - that is your lot.
So it seems you fall short of a summers day,
The bard gets to have his roll in the hay,
The rogue has his skills, the fighter his shield
The casters all-power, and YOU must yield.Amazing Zealot avatar by Elder Tsofu.
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2007-10-02, 12:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Monks: Shall I Compare Thee?
Dont bash bards, they are the most underrated class.
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2007-10-02, 03:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Monks: Shall I Compare Thee?
It goes something like this:
First tier: Cleric, druid, wizard, sorcerer, archivist, beguiler, psion
Second tier: Swordsage, warblade, crusader, warmage, duskblade
Third tier: Barbarian, rogue, ranger, bard, warlock, hexblade, dragon shaman, psywar
Fourth tier: Paladin, fighter, swashbuckler, marshall
Fifth tier: Monk, healer, samurai, NPC classes
Third tier is probably best for balance comparisons.Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.
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2007-10-02, 04:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Monks: Shall I Compare Thee?
What clever and legal uses of a monk's abilities make the monk as useful as an equivalently built, middle-of-the-road class, perhaps a barbarian, rogue, or bard? Unless the dungeon master is going out of his way to design tasks and adventures that favor the monk, I'm not aware of any such uses.
Well, what we really should be comparing with is "CR-appropriate monster encounters, and which party members can contribute meaningfully to such a battle more easily." But that's admittedly hard to measure decisively
First tier: Cleric, druid, wizard, sorcerer, archivist, beguiler, psion
Second tier: Swordsage, warblade, crusader, warmage, duskblade
Third tier: Barbarian, rogue, ranger, bard, warlock, hexblade, dragon shaman, psywar
Fourth tier: Paladin, fighter, swashbuckler, marshall
Fifth tier: Monk, healer, samurai, NPC classes
First tier: Cleric, druid, wizard, sorcerer, archivist, beguiler, psion
Second tier: Swordsage, warblade, crusader, warmage, duskblade
Third tier: Barbarian, rogue, ranger, bard, warlock, hexblade, dragon shaman, psywar, monk
Fourth tier: Paladin, fighter, swashbuckler, marshall
Fifth tier: healer, samurai, NPC classesthnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2007-10-02, 05:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Monks: Shall I Compare Thee?
Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.
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2007-10-02, 05:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Monks: Shall I Compare Thee?
According to those tiers:
First tier: Full casters
Second tier: Fake full caster warrior-mage hybrid things
Third tier: Classes that do their job well (classes with a a handful of good features)
Fourth tier: Classes that do their job well if planned by a optimizer (Classes with 1 or 2 decent features)
Fifth tier: Classes that require fudge rolls, high magic, and cheese to do their job (Classes with no few usable role aiding features)
Monks are tier 5 because they require multiple form of unfairness to compete with most weapon users or skill monkeys.Gitp's No. 1 Cake hater
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2007-10-02, 06:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Monks: Shall I Compare Thee?
Do I smell smoke?
Seriously, just because "my friends say so" doesn't make it true. I've been around long enough to see consensus on classes shift and even do an about face in some cases.
Tiers aside, a monk is okay if a DM (as we all should) provides encounters that challenge all characters and give them all a time to shine, everyone can have fun. A monk can be pretty useful if given some situations where it can shine. I don't care much for the monk, but that doesn't mean that one cannot be played well as a useful party member.
Might I add that the assumption that everybody is into dnd to have a powerful character, rather than to have fun is, I would say, a rather strong logical fallacy. Seriously though, that was needlessly aggressive, try and keep a civil tone.Nuturion skillfully crafted by The Stoney One
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2007-10-02, 06:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Monks: Shall I Compare Thee?
Psst....I think you guys might be focusing a little too much on combat....but maybe you enjoy the whole computer game scenario.
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2007-10-02, 06:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Monks: Shall I Compare Thee?
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2007-10-02, 06:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Monks: Shall I Compare Thee?
Then, quite frankly, what the heck do you suggest we talk about?
People come here to discuss the mechanics because the mechanics are what they need help with, or because that's what interests them, or because they think they've found a problem in the mechanics, or... the reasons go on and on. What else is there to discuss? Sure, you can ask about certain aspects of roleplay, but unlike mechanics, these are highly relative. Sure, you can swap stories or create hypothetical situations and ask how people would react, but what do these do aside from provide amusement? Come to think of it, I'm willing to bet most of the mechanics twinking that occurs here is for amusement rather than actual play.
I'd say the whole roleplay segment of the game is almost entirely, purely relative. Mechanics, at least, has a common basis, something which is true for all of us. I am, of course, referring to the rules.
At one point, science believed in the geo centric model of the solar system. This felt out of favor as new data became available. So to is it with optimization. As new splat books are released, and new combinations are discovered, the relative power of classes rises and falls. That being said, the math backing up the "Monk is sub par " claims is rather solid.
I'd also like to note that rule zero, AKA "The DM should fix it" is no excuse. Quite frankly, I feel the system should be designed so as to run with a minimal amount of rule zero. That's extra work on the DM's lap, and I, as a DM, can say I need no more work. I have quite enough already, thank you. A wizard can, with a little preparation, shine in practically any situation. A Monk cannot.
I also think you indulge in a fallacy when you imply that fun and a "powerful" (perhaps the word you're looking for is mechanically competent?) character are mutually exclusive. To extract fun from the mechanics portion of the game you must be able to exert force over them, and Monks have a hard time doing that effectively.Last edited by Neon Knight; 2007-10-02 at 06:36 AM.
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2007-10-02, 07:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Monks: Shall I Compare Thee?
Look, kid, I shan't be misrepresented by your rhetoric.
I remember when sorcerers were considered a weak class, before the advent of TLN's proclamation that full arcane casters win. In core they are as powerful as they ever were, only attitudes have changed.
I was saying is that you needn't have the most powerful character in the world to have fun. Monks fill a tertiary role in parties and are rarely essential, but in a campaign where lots of physical tasks need to be done, and the rogue hasn't invested in climb etc. what tier is the monk on then? It is all very relative to not only the kind of campaign the character is being used in, but also what kind of combat the DM chooses to run.
Sure, playing a powerful wizard or what have you can be a barrel of laughs, but that doesn't mean that they are the only class that's fun because they're most powerful (yes powerful is the word I intended, and for the record 'mechanically competent' is not a word rather a term).
I resent that fact that you assume that I am saying that power and fun are mutually exclusive, when at no point did I say that. Now you say I 'indulge' in a fallacy when I do no such thing, point to me any time I say that more mechanically competent characters are no fun and impossible to enjoy. You shan't find it because I have never said it. I believe that any character when played well can be fun, but to exclusively look at the mechanical strengths and weaknesses of a character or class is to overlook the most important portion of dnd, that is the roleplaying.
Now if you're done misrepresenting me, I shall be off.Nuturion skillfully crafted by The Stoney One
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