Helping me optomize a bard

[WitchSlayer]

Hey there, it's me, the fairly unknown member WitchSlayer, and I need help. You see, I've only played D&D a few times, and even after reading this board every day for the longest time, I can't build a character.

So, please, I ask your aid. How would you optimize a bard with these stats?
12,17,10,14,13,11
Only using the core and complete books, I'm open to any bardy suggestion.
Thank you all so much.

[Dr. Weasel]

Can you help us out a bit?

Like what do you want to focus on:
Music (Suggestion)?
Music (Team buffing)?
Spellcasting?
Fighting (melee)?
Fighting (ranged)?
Skill guy?
Generalist?

What sources are available?

What levels will you be playing at?


[EDIT:] I just felt this post needed another question mark: ?

[WitchSlayer]

A skill guy, generalist, or buffer would be best. Like I said, anything from core and the complete series. We're starting at 2 and hopefully it will continue for a while.

Edit: Then I shall add an unnecessary period.

.

[Guy_Whozevl]

Go Str: 10, Dex: 12, Con: 13 (so you can boost it if needed), Int: 14 (to be a generalist/skillmonkey), Wis: 10 (you get good will saves), and Cha: 17.

Try and be a lesser aasimar (sp?), a planetouched race. It's the regular one from the MM minus the outsider type. You get +2 Wis and Cha (important). Load up on perform (anything works; just don't get piano or something else combersome). For your third level feat, try and get Versatile Performer from Complete Adventurer, as you can perform in better ways. First level feat can be Extra Music from Complete Adventurer for more bardic music. In battle, just stick back and use facinate/inspire courage to buff the party. In a social situation, use diplomacy, bardic knowledge, bluff, etc. Just don't overabuse to piss off your DM.
Gear should be a mwk instrument (if needed, check out the Complete Adventurer ones), possibly a Heward's Handy Haversack to offset your strength, some basic weapons (light slashing and a crossbow would work), and standard adventuring gear (sunrods, tindertwigs, ten-foot-pole, rations, etc.). Some rope wouldn't hurt either.

Bards are some of the best characters from roleplaying; try and breathe some personality into him/her to make it a memorable play.

Edit: For spells, get summon instrument as a cantrip and load up on utility for the rest (light, lullaby, know direction, mage hand, detect magic, etc.). Good first level spells are charm person, tasha's hideous laughter (an excellent save or die for your level), and grease

[ocato]

Although this isn't always popular, I like my bards to be archers. You can focus on DEX and dump STR, and you can still do some attacking without a big feat commitment (unlike a rapier or sword that would require either a stat split or weapon finesse).

[Enlong]

I know it's not answering his question per se, but if we're talking about making good bards anyway... Is the abilities of Seeker of the Song worth losing 10 levels worth of spell advancement? It seems to me like it's quite worth it, for the Subvocalize ability and the various song combinations.

[BardicDuelist]

I would personally go human. Either way, you should put your rolls like this:
Str 11, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 13, Wiz 10, Cha 17

Now, if you mean all Complete books the best thing you can do to a bard is to go: Bard 4/Lyric Thaumaturge 6/Sublime Chord 10. LT is in CMage and SC is in CArcane.

For feats, you want to have:
H-Extra Music, 1-Melodic Casting, 3-Versitile Performer, 6-Skill Focus-perform

If you go asimar, just use H as 1 and everyting else as one higher.As far as feats for higher levels, there are a lot of options that you probably don't need to worry from the get go.

As far as skills go: Keep Bluff, Diplomacy, Perform, and UMD at maximum ranks. You will want Knowledge-Arcana to be high, as well as Spellcraft. You will need Profession-astrologer and Listen for Sublime Chord.

The advantage of this build is you get better spellcasting, which basically equals more power in D&D.

[WitchSlayer]

Thanks everyone, bardic duelist, your build does look good. I was also thinking about using a whip or being an archer to get some distance. Thank you all so much.

[BardicDuelist]

That's what we're here for. You're welcome.

[Enlong]

While we're still here, anyone have any suggestions on a good build with use of a Seeker of the Song? I really, really like the look of this class, and want to know how to cope with the loss of 5th and 6th level spells.

[BardicDuelist]

While we're still here, anyone have any suggestions on a good build with use of a Seeker of the Song? I really, really like the look of this class, and want to know how to cope with the loss of 5th and 6th level spells.

It is definately a blaster class. While sub-optimal, it is still effective, and very fun to play. One way to offset the lack of higher level spells is to take Lyric Thaumaturge until level 10. This gives you some better spells.

Also, after level 4 in Seeker of the Song, I go back to Lyric Thaumaturge, Sublime Chord, of just Bard, since you have enough abilities to give you some good flavor and fun tricks up your sleeve, but you can still get 6th level spells. The Song of Life is my favorite part about Seeker anyway.

A way that my DM let work is to take Spellsinger from Races of Faerun. By the way we interpreted the rules (which may not be RAW), it allows you to stack levels with Spellsinger with any class that offers any ability that takes up bardic music uses. With that, I went Bard 4/Lyric Thaumaturge 6/Sublime Chord 4/Seeker of Song 1/Spellsinger 5. That gave me spellcasting of Sublime Chord 10 and Music of Seeker 6. Again, this may not be RAW, but it is how I did it.

[Enlong]

What is the Lyric Thaumaturge?

Otherwise, I get the picture, and it's a nice one. I combine the musically optimized PRC with the magically optimized one, and get the awesome from both.

What abilities other then seeker songs does 4th level Seeker get? Does it get you Combine Songs or Subvocalize at that level? Or, just, what else does it get?

[BardicDuelist]

What is the Lyric Thaumaturge?

Otherwise, I get the picture, and it's a nice one. I combine the musically optimized PRC with the magically optimized one, and get the awesome from both.

What abilities other then seeker songs does 4th level Seeker get? Does it get you Combine Songs or Subvocalize at that level? Or, just, what else does it get?

Lyric Thaumaturge is in Complete Mage. It gives you some better lower level casting.

You don't get subvocalize, but you do get Combine Songs, and Rapture of the Song (+2 AC, +2 Saves).

[Enlong]

Lyric Thaumaturge is in Complete Mage. It gives you some better lower level casting.

You don't get subvocalize, but you do get Combine Songs, and Rapture of the Song (+2 AC, +2 Saves).

Cool!

So is Lyric Thaumaturge a PRC or just a base class? From your build it seems like a PRC.

So the Lyric Thaumaturge gets me better low level casting, my levels in Sublime Chord gets me better high level casting, and my levels in Seeker of the Song benefits my music. Sounds like a pretty dang useful bard.

Hey, question. Sublime Chords get to have spells taken from either the Sorcerer or the Bard lists. Would I be able to take Otto's Irresistable Dance twice? As a Bard level 6 and a Sorcerer level 8? Now wouldn't that be weird.

[BardicDuelist]

Cool!

So is Lyric Thaumaturge a PRC or just a base class? From your build it seems like a PRC.

So the Lyric Thaumaturge gets me better low level casting, my levels in Sublime Chord gets me better high level casting, and my levels in Seeker of the Song benefits my music. Sounds like a pretty dang useful bard.

Hey, question. Sublime Chords get to have spells taken from either the Sorcerer or the Bard lists. Would I be able to take Otto's Irresistable Dance twice? As a Bard level 6 and a Sorcerer level 8? Now wouldn't that be weird.

Sublime Chord uses the lower of the two levels (so you would get Otto's as a level 6 spell, at character level 13, or 14 with my build, which is still one level before even a wizard would get it).

Lyric Thaumaturge is a PrC.

Also note that for my build, you should take 1 level of Sublime Chord, 1 level of Seeker of Song, and then go Spellsinger till you max it out (it is a 5 level PrC), then take the remaining three levels in Sublime Chord.

[WitchSlayer]

Hey, somewhat off-topic but does anyone happen to know the stats for the dagger whip or what book it's in?

[BardicDuelist]

It is in Sword & Fist, a 3.0 Suppliment.

Its stats are: 1d6 Lethal Damage (Piercing), 19-20x2 crit. Otherwise it is like a whip.

[Ranis]

I know it's not answering his question per se, but if we're talking about making good bards anyway... Is the abilities of Seeker of the Song worth losing 10 levels worth of spell advancement? It seems to me like it's quite worth it, for the Subvocalize ability and the various song combinations.

I'm currently playing a bard optimized toward becoming a Seeker of the Song. How, you may ask? Simple. Extra Music. Five times. When I bust out my first level of Seeker of the Song, I'll have 41 uses of Bardic Music per day.

En Garde, bitches.

[Enlong]

I'm currently playing a bard optimized toward becoming a Seeker of the Song. How, you may ask? Simple. Extra Music. Five times. When I bust out my first level of Seeker of the Song, I'll have 41 uses of Bardic Music per day.

En Garde, bitches.

Awesome.

Hey, what do you guys think of this possible idea?
Bard 4/ Sublime Chord 6/ Seeker of the Song 10

Bard 4 is the first level a bard can possibly have 3rd level spells. Then I hop to Sublime Chord, enjoy the full progression of Bardic Music, Knowledge, and up to 2 7th level spells, then hop over to Seeker of the Song for the rest of the levels. Or should I max out Sublime Chord and hop to Seeker four levels after? I'm not sure which one to do.

Edit: Ugh, just realized that Sublime Chord doesn't get the Bard's music progression, just its own, limited songs. Is it worth it just for the spells?

Ugh: Just remembered that this build will never happen (frickin' requirements) And I don't know the stuff for Lyric Thaumaturge, so it's probably going to be Bard 10/ PRC 10

So... hm... I'm not sure which one to pick, Seeker or Chord.

[Kantolin]

Let me see. Skill Focus is from the PHB, Melodic Casting is from the Complete Mage (And is overall quite nifty).

What books are Versatile Performer and Extra music from?

[bigbaddragon]

@ WitchSlayer: You could also consider Warchanter prestige class from Complete Warrior. It looses bardic music and spellcasting but gains different kind of music and the ability to combine it with bardic music. Some of Warchanter's new songs really rock (like Inspire Recklessness and Inspire Legion for example).

[OneWinged4ngel]

Hey there, it's me, the fairly unknown member WitchSlayer, and I need help. You see, I've only played D&D a few times, and even after reading this board every day for the longest time, I can't build a character.

So, please, I ask your aid. How would you optimize a bard with these stats?
12,17,10,14,13,11
Only using the core and complete books, I'm open to any bardy suggestion.
Thank you all so much.

You're not giving enough information. What kind of bard do you want to play? Do you want to cast spells better than a sorceror? Fight better than the party's Warblade? Inspire legions in battle? Be the skill monkey?

I can give you all those things, but you have to tell me which you want.

I'm currently playing a bard optimized toward becoming a Seeker of the Song. How, you may ask? Simple. Extra Music. Five times. When I bust out my first level of Seeker of the Song, I'll have 41 uses of Bardic Music per day.

En Garde, bitches.

If only Seeker of the Song was good and you had something to do with those 41 music uses. Well, at least you get a decent counterspelling song. Not that you'll really need it 41 times per day in almost any case. That optimization doesn't deserve that damn crab's quote at all. That damn crab is actually frightening. 41 uses of bardic music per day isn't. =P

((Personally, I love the whole flavor and mechanical concepts for the Seeker of the Song, I just think it was rather awfully implemented. That's why my friend (with a bit of input from me) came up with a more mechanically apt Seeker of the Song PrC. Which I also think is cooler as far as flavor goes =P))

Edit:

A skill guy, generalist, or buffer would be best.

Whelp, that's kinda vague (and numerous! You can't do everything. Bards aren't wonderful generalists. You want to pick a specialization and go for it!), with no roleplaying concept at all, but... guess I'll pick out one of those ideas and run with it. Here's a pretty standard build for a bardic buffer.

Bard 8 / War Weaver 1 / Recaster 1 / Sublime Chord 2 / War Weaver 4 / Recaster 4.

With this build, you get:

-9th level spellcasting *from the Wizard/Sorceror spell list *plus* bard earlies and uniques.*
-The ability to transmit your single target buff spells (from your full spellcasting) to *all your allies at once* at no extra cost to yourself.
-Lots of metamagic goodies from Recaster.
-The 8th bard level, so you can get your +12 or whatever Inspire Courage from the standard Inspire Courage op. Oh, and Fascinate/Suggestion.
-Amazing social skills.

Basically, it's quite hard to beat as far as buffing goes. You can dump some serious buffage on your party *very* quickly, and then watch them go to town. You also have 9th level spells from the Wizard spell list. So you obviously own in a hundred other ways besides that.