CaDzilla

[Raolin_Fenix]

Studious readers of Raolin-posts will have come to the conclusion that I have poor fortune when it comes to, uh, keeping characters alive.

But just on the off chance that not everyone on this forum is familiar with me ( ), I'll specify: between miserable luck with the dice, poor decisions on my part, and bad character-building skills all around, I have managed to kill nearly every D&D character I've ever played. To date, one of them has survived to retirement, and a second survived from three sessions prior to the end of the campaign to the end of the campaign. (The latter was a near thing.) Every other character I've had has died (with the exception of the characters I'm playing right now), usually within a few sessions of their conception.

Needless to say, I'm tired of dying. Death has become too inconvenient to bear further.

So, I'm playing in two different campaigns right now. Both are gestalt. One is Forgotten Realms, one is Planescape. In FR, I'm currently playing a fighter/ranger, archer, animal companion horse; with any luck, he may survive for a while by virtue of staying off the front lines, having fair hit points, and not doing enough damage to warrant special consideration by the enemies, while still inflicting enough damage to be useful to his teammates. My Planescape character is a Wizard/Warlock, who has thus far fallen unconscious in nearly every encounter; I'm nevertheless hoping he'll stay alive by virtue of defensive buffs and being less immediately threatening than everyone else (he's useful rather than threatening). In FR, I'm level 6/6; in Planescape, 4/4.

While I'm hoping these characters will live, judging by my track record, it's only a matter of short time before they drop horribly, horribly dead. I already have several more characters lined up on that contingency, but honestly, it's getting redundant.

So I've pretty well decided that my next character will go all out. Since we're gestalted, I see no reason to become a Clericzilla or Druidzilla, when I can be both at once. I feel after watching a thousand characters drop like as many mosquitoes in a RAID-ed room, I've bloody well earned this privilege.

The problem is thus:

In my Forgotten Realms campaign, we're pretty stoked for healers. We've got a paladin/favored soul, a bard/cleric, and a wizard/cleric. Sure, I could go Cleric/Druid and dominate the fighting line with a wildshaped, spellslinging monster with Divine Everything and Righteous Might, but with two classes with full divine caster progression, I'd kind of, y'know, be stepping on a few toes.

My Planescape campaign, on the other hand, has exactly the opposite problem: no healers at all, in a party of seven. We used to have a healer, but he ended up quitting. So naturally, it's much better for me to save the CaDzilla for Planescape -- but that's where the problem comes in. The Planescape campaign has a house rule. The cleric class has been split up into two piddle-classes: the Priest and the Crusader.

The Priest is sort of a cleric-***-wizard: d6 hit die, good Will save, poor BAB progression. Proficient with simple weapons and light armor. Bonus feat every five levels (metamagic, item creation, or divine), Turn Undead, and Scribe Scroll; no other class features. But full spellcasting progression, ending with spells per day as follows (from 0-level to 9-level): 6/5/5/5/5/5/4/4/4/4. His alignment restricts the spells he can access (so a good cleric can't have evil spells). Cure spells can be spontaneously cast, all others are prepped, per normal cleric. Most importantly, however, he has access to the entire cleric spell list -- EXCEPT Divine Power and Righteous Might, as well as any other spells that buff only the cleric's own personal combat abilities (as opposed to general buffs that work on anyone).

The Crusader is sort of paladin-esque: d8 hit die, good Fort and Will saves, medium BAB progression. Proficient with simple weapons, all armor, and all shields (except tower shields). Turn undead, bonus feats at second level and every three levels thereafter (Divine or Fighter-feat, except for feats that are fighter-specific like Weapon Specialization). Spontaneous casting for any spell on their spell list (spoilered below). However, his spell list is limited (obviously, as he's spontaneous), and most importantly, he only gets spells up to sixth level. Notably, however, Divine Power and Righteous Might are on his spell list.

CRUSADER SPELLS:

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0th level spells (Orisons)

Create water, cure minor wounds, detect poison, guidance, inflict minor wounds, light, resistance, virtue

1st level spells

Bane, bless, bless water, cause fear, command, cure light wounds, curse water, detect chaos/evil/good/law, detect undead, divine favor, doom, entropic shield, hide from undead, inflict light wounds, magic weapon, protection from chaos/evil/good/law, shield of faith

2nd level spells

Aid, align weapon, bear’s endurance, bull’s strength, cure moderate wounds, darkness, death knell, eagle’s splendor, inflict moderate wounds, owl’s wisdom, resist energy, shield other, undetectable alignment

3rd level spells

Bestow curse, blindness/deafness, contagion, cure serious wounds, daylight, deeper darkness, dispel magic, inflict serious wounds, invisibility purge, magic circle against chaos/evil/good/law, magic vestment, prayer, protection from energy, searing light, water breathing, wind wall

4th level spells

Air walk, cure critical wounds, death ward, dismissal, divine power, freedom of movement, inflict critical wounds, magic weapon (greater), neutralize poison, poison, spell immunity

5th level spells

Command (greater), cure light wounds (mass), dispel chaos/evil/good/law, disrupting weapon, flame strike, inflict light wounds (mass), righteous might, slay living, spell resistance, symbol of pain, symbol of sleep, true seeing

6th level spells

Banishment, bear’s endurance (mass), blade barrier, bull’s strength (mass), cure moderate wounds (mass), dispel magic (Greater), eagle’s splendor (mass), harm, heal, heroes’ feast, inflict moderate wounds (mass), owl’s wisdom (mass), symbol of fear, undeath to death, word of recall

Which brings me, at long last, to my question: is it worth it?

Should I say "screw it" and bring in a CaDzilla to Forgotten Realms, in spite of the multitude of healers? (Seriously, half the party heals.) Or should I bite the bullet, go for it in Planescape, and take up a gimped class which I took one look at and made a solemn vow never, ever to touch?

Now, to reiterate, I know a CaDzilla should never, ever be played. But if anyone's entitled by this time, it's me. :P




Edit: AVAILABLE RESOURCES:

Planescape:

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a. Player’s Handbook (Exceptions: the Cleric and Sorcerer classes have been rewritten. The Cleric has now become the Crusader and Priest classes, and the Sorcerer has been rewritten to make it less gimpy.)

b. Dungeon Master’s Guide (equipment exceptions: animated shields, bead of karma, ioun stones granting spell immunity.)

c. Player’s Handbook II

d. Expanded Psionics Handbook

e. Complete Adventurer

f. Complete Arcane

g. Complete Divine (spell exceptions: Brambles, Quillfire, Spikes)

h. Complete Psionics

i. Complete Warrior (class exceptions: frenzied berserker (allowed, but with some modification); feat exceptions: Improved Rapid Shot.)

j. Custom material: A PC version of the Noble class. I'm not putting it in here because I don't want to be one. :P

Forgotten Realms: (pretty much the same, a couple minor differences)

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a. Player’s Handbook

b. Dungeon Master’s Guide (equipment exceptions: animated shields, bead of karma, ioun stones granting spell immunity, any item granting a magical bonus to skills other than Climb, Jump, and Swim (just because a potion of fly is a hundred times better than +10 to jumping and climbing, anyway). The exception to this last is potions, which are available normally.)

c. Expanded Psionics Handbook

d. Player’s Handbook II

e. Complete Adventurer

f. Complete Arcane

g. Complete Divine (spell exceptions: Brambles, Quillfire, Spikes)

h. Complete Psionics

i. Complete Warrior (class exceptions: frenzied berserker (allowed, but with some modification))

j. Custom material: PC version of the Noble class

k. Forgotten Realms books, including the Campaign Setting, Player’s Guide to Faerun, Faiths and Pantheons, Magic of Faerun, Races of Faerun. (DM's approval required for most of these, but generally granted.)

[Skjaldbakka]

CoDzilla is writing "cleric" or "druid" on your character sheet. The classes are self-optimized. What shouldn't be done is persistent spell/DMM cheese in combination with this.

[Raolin_Fenix]

CoDzilla is writing "cleric" or "druid" on your character sheet. The classes are self-optimized. What shouldn't be done is persistent spell/DMM cheese in combination with this.

I promise nothing.

[Seatbelt]

Play a gimpy cleric healer on one side, and some powerhouse meleer on the other. You dont need righteous might to make a pimped out melee brute, but you need a cleric for healing. So play something with high BAB and HD. Barbarian maybe. Or Knight. Or be a Cleric/Knight/Dwarven Defender and be a fixed healing emplacement.


Or be a Warmage/Fighter/Dwarven Defender and be a fixed weapons emplacement.

[horseboy]

Become CATzilla! The awakened house cat druid!

[Turcano]

For the Planescape campaign, the matter is simple. Your party needs healing spells more than an uberwarrior, so go priest//druid; remember, you still have your druid buffs.

For the FR campaign, I have two questions: is Races of the Wild on the table, and are you allowed to take dual-progression prestige classes with only one spellcasting progression? If the answer to both is yes, I'd recommend druid//wizard with a one-level dip of arcane heirophant for the synergy goodness. If you do this, work out a division of labor regarding spells with the cleric//wizard in the party.

[Raolin_Fenix]

For the Planescape campaign, the matter is simple. Your party needs healing spells more than an uberwarrior, so go priest//druid; remember, you still have your druid buffs.

For the FR campaign, I have two questions: is Races of the Wild on the table, and are you allowed to take dual-progression prestige classes with only one spellcasting progression? If the answer to both is yes, I'd recommend druid//wizard with a one-level dip of arcane heirophant for the synergy goodness. If you do this, work out a division of labor regarding spells with the cleric//wizard in the party.

With Planescape, my party could actually really use both. =/ We have a crossbow fighter/ninja who likes to stay out of harm's way, a moderately ineffectual figher/swashbuckler (who just doesn't do much damage, even if she can take hits as well as anyone else), and a couple of casters. Most of the encounters we've faced should have been fairly easy, but between lack of healing and general inability to take a solid hit, we've barely scraped by in most of them.

For FR: the answer is unfortunately no to both. I might be able to get DM approval for Races of the Wild, on a case-by-case basis, but it's mostly limited to Core and most of the Completes. Even if I do get DM approval, I can unfortunately only take one PrC at a time. In fact, by houserule, arcane heirophant has probably been scrapped: PrCs that combine elements of two classes are generally disallowed (since it obviously allows you to basically triple-class). Examples of this include the Arcane Trickster, among others.

[Turcano]

In fact, by houserule, arcane heirophant has probably been scrapped: PrCs that combine elements of two classes are generally disallowed (since it obviously allows you to basically triple-class). Examples of this include the Arcane Trickster, among others.

I think you misunderstood my second question. Many DMs who play gestalt allow dual-progression prestige classes on the condition that the spellcasting progression only applies on the side that it's on (and not on the other). I suggested arcane heirophant because it removes arcane spellcasting failure when wearing druid armor and applies familiar bonuses to your animal companion. It's too bad you can't pull that off, though.

[Dr. Weasel]

Just another idea (dunno how useful):
Rogue1/Swordsage4/Chameleon10/(Either Warshaper or Swordsage depending on your Gestalt-prerequisite-meeting rules)5//Druid 20


This would give you slightly retarded Wisdom-based casting off of any Divine list (both of your Cleric lists), Wisdom to AC while Wild Shaped, Wisdom to damage on Tiger Claw strikes (could be useful), Insight-based ability boosts (unlikely to overlap) and a flat bonus of to-hit and damage between +2 and +6 per attack. Sounds like your DM will disallow it, but it's there.

[ReluctantDragon]

I fully support your decision Raolin. I too have felt the sting of meaningless play, in which a valued character meets an ignoble end, again and again.

I would definitely go for it. Build your druid//cleric. Keep in mind however that if abuse of the spells overshadows the rest of the party and lessens their fun, that's when a fair player needs to step back a minute and decide, "I'm going to tone it down a bit on those spells."

Otherwise, go all out and have a blast!

[Laurellien]

If the cleric class is too gimped, just combine druid with archivist or wizard.

[Starbuck_II]

With Planescape, my party could actually really use both. =/ We have a crossbow fighter/ninja who likes to stay out of harm's way, a moderately ineffectual figher/swashbuckler (who just doesn't do much damage, even if she can take hits as well as anyone else), and a couple of casters. Most of the encounters we've faced should have been fairly easy, but between lack of healing and general inability to take a solid hit, we've barely scraped by in most of them.

For FR: the answer is unfortunately no to both. I might be able to get DM approval for Races of the Wild, on a case-by-case basis, but it's mostly limited to Core and most of the Completes. Even if I do get DM approval, I can unfortunately only take one PrC at a time. In fact, by houserule, arcane heirophant has probably been scrapped: PrCs that combine elements of two classes are generally disallowed (since it obviously allows you to basically triple-class). Examples of this include the Arcane Trickster, among others.

I would suggest a Crusader forPlanescape if Tome of Battle can be considered.
Crusaders can fight + heal. And best part: done right, they just don't die!

[Dr. Weasel]

If the cleric class is too gimped, just combine druid with archivist or wizard.

Ack! No synergy! Your Wizard spells won't do much for your bashiness and your bashiness won't do much for your Wizadly-ness.

Each and every Archivist spell you gain must be specifically granted by your DM and it doesn't sound like he's too keen on handing out the spooky Cleric self-buffs. You'll also rely on multiple casting abilities (the one thing to avoid in gestalt)

The only Intelligence-based caster classes I would consider would be the Egoist and Duskblade.

Actually, maybe look at Psychic Warrior instead of Cleric. It could be just as beastly if you're Nova-ing its Powers (Which you'll be able to afford with the secondary spellcasting source that is the Druid).

[Quietus]

Well, looking at things, the druid is widely seen as being a melee powerhouse on his own, so ... let's examine what's changed with the "priest". I'm going to bold any changes that were made.

The Priest is sort of a cleric-***-wizard: d6 hit die, good Will save, poor BAB progression. Proficient with simple weapons and light armor. Bonus feat every five levels (metamagic, item creation, or divine), Turn Undead, and Scribe Scroll; no other class features. But full spellcasting progression, ending with spells per day as follows (from 0-level to 9-level): 6/5/5/5/5/5/4/4/4/4. His alignment restricts the spells he can access (so a good cleric can't have evil spells). Cure spells can be spontaneously cast, all others are prepped, per normal cleric. Most importantly, however, he has access to the entire cleric spell list -- EXCEPT Divine Power and Righteous Might, as well as any other spells that buff only the cleric's own personal combat abilities (as opposed to general buffs that work on anyone).

So, in total, your "Priest" lost :

d8 hit die (replaced by druid's d8)
Good fort save (replaced by druid)
3/4 BAB (replaced by druid)
Medium/heavy armor (which you lose in wildshape anyway)
Personal buffs.

However, you GAIN bonus feats. And I don't know whether the spell changes are giving you more/less spells, I presume more.

A druid/cleric WON'T FEEL any of the changes except the loss of personal buffs, many of which wouldn't stack with druid buffs anyhow. Animal Growth does the same thing as ... can't remember the name of it right now, the 5th level cleric personal buff. The +3 attack/damage one is nice, as is the full bab/+6 enhancement to strength, but consider that you can wildshape into something with 20-30 strength, then Animal Growth yourself (AND your companion!) for another 8. Are you going to feel the loss of 2-5 BAB at that point, when you're well over 10-20 points of strength higher than you would be otherwise?

Basically, what these changes would do for your cleric/druid, in my eyes, is have you spending the majority of your druid spells on personal buffs and the occasional battlefield control like Entangle, while letting you use Cleric spells for defensive spells and healing, with the occasional Flame Blast or whatever.

[Draz74]

You could go Crusader//Druid in the Planescape game. (And I mean Crusader as in, your DM's war-cleric, because it sounds like Tome of Battle definitely won't be an option, which is too bad.) You'll still be a competent healer, seeing as a Druid all by himself can be a competent healer. You'll still get 9th level spells through the Druid side. And you can still be a feared force in melee by wildshaping and, later, adding the Righteous Might/Divine Power combo.

Basically I'm just not seeing what the Crusader loses, compared to the Cleric, that actually matters to a CaDzilla. More high-level spells would be nice, but they're not really needed when you have full druid casting. In fact, the bonus feats (since you'll be in melee a lot) and having one side of your casting be spontaneous might actually be a boon.

I always recommend a 1-level Monk dip for a CaDzilla build. Yay for Wisdom to AC while wildshaped!

I admire the DM's willingness to nerf the Cleric, but I find it strange that he apparently leaves the Druid alone. It's even slightly more powerful. Hmmm. Also, has he looked into the Cloistered Cleric variant? It is similar to his "Priest" nerfed class, but gets a couple other goodies like a bonus Knowledge domain to keep it from being too gimpy. (He'd still have to ban personal buffs ... which I think the Cloistered Cleric shouldn't really have access to unless his domains grant them.)

Finally, in your FR game, it sounds like you could use some not-so-healer suggestions for uber builds in case you die. Looks like that party isn't so well-rounded in the Skill Monkey department. One of my favorite gestalt combos to recommend to people is Druid//Ninja. You could still be a "zilla," but not have too much healing capability, and be a skill monkey for the party too. Or a Beguiler would fit in nicely, if PHB II is allowed in your game. Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 2/Barbarian 2/Duelist 10/Rogue 3//Beguiler 19/Mindbender 1 is a great build.

[Dr. Weasel]

Animal Growth does the same thing as ... can't remember the name of it right now, the 5th level cleric personal buff. The +3 attack/damage one is nice, as is the full bab/+6 enhancement to strength, but consider that you can wildshape into something with 20-30 strength, then Animal Growth yourself (AND your companion!) for another 8.

Unless you're actually Polymorphing yourself into an animal, Animal Growth won't affect you. That aside, Righteous Might is the only spell of much significance that you lose.

Divine Power, the other heavy-hitting Cleric buff, doesn't affect you as much as it would a straight Cleric as Druids generally don't rely on BA for extra attacks.

Divine Favor is just a couple extra damage. It's nice, but losing it isn't going to hurt much.

[Renegade Paladin]

Unless you're actually Polymorphing yourself into an animal, Animal Growth won't affect you. That aside, Righteous Might is the only spell of much significance that you lose and its main benefit (Higher BA and thus more attacks) won't affect you since you generally gain more than one natural attack while Wild Shaping.

Righteous Might doesn't raise BAB; that's Divine Power. Righteous Might just makes you bigger.

[Dr. Weasel]

Right. I was thinking two things at once and magled them into one.

Problem:Fixed.

[FireSpark]

My Planescape campaign, on the other hand, has exactly the opposite problem: no healers at all, in a party of seven. We used to have a healer, but he ended up quitting. So naturally, it's much better for me to save the CaDzilla for Planescape

I say, if your DM is letting you the Complete books, and hopefully the PHB II, I say go Favored Soul//Knight.
D12, best BAB, all good saves, oodles of healing spells per day, and proficiency in all armors, shields, and simple/martial weapons. Weeeee!

[Raolin_Fenix]

Unless you're actually Polymorphing yourself into an animal, Animal Growth won't affect you. That aside, Righteous Might is the only spell of much significance that you lose.

Divine Power, the other heavy-hitting Cleric buff, doesn't affect you as much as it would a straight Cleric as Druids generally don't rely on BA for extra attacks.

Divine Favor is just a couple extra damage. It's nice, but losing it isn't going to hurt much.

Well, the Wildshape ability specifies that it is "as the polymorph spell" in all ways but a few. So Animal Growth would work on a wildshaped druid. So Righteous Might seems to be replaced, unless I'm misreading something. Divine Power and Divine Favor, on the other hand, come to a +14 attack bonus and +9 damage between them.

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(Ultimately, for attack bonus, +5 BAB for Divine Power, +3 from strength, +6 luck bonus from Divine Favor; and, for damage, +6 luck from Divine Favor and +3 from strength with Divine Power.)

+14 attack and +9 damage is nothing to laugh at. For a regular Dire Tiger (without Animal Growth), it doubles his attack and more than doubles his damage.

Hence my dilemma. I'm pretty much going for the most unstoppable monster I can imagine, and it's a matter of what's more important to the Clericzilla: the Divine/Righteous spells, or the other spellcasting potential.



I'm liking the suggestions I'm getting so far, all around. (My lack of a response indicates I'm filing them away for consideration, not disregarding them. ) I guess I'll go edit in the list of available resources, since it's more important than I'd anticipated. :P It'll be spoilered in under my original post within a couple minutes.