The new general "Dominions 5" Thread

[deuterio12]

It is then still a massive advantage. Since it means you wont suffer attrition unless facing a force at least close to equal to yours.

Or somebody brings fire to the party.

Really a shame we couldn't get a player for Cinnabar City.

Actually I think that's why Celadon picked you as their first target-you're the best fire nation in the current game, so they really didn't want to allow you to get your research on.

I can eventually get immortal fire/air Electrode Champions, but first need to research a bunch of thaumathurgy and set a lab on a wasteland and then it would take 4 turns each unless I also set up an upgraded fort...

They likely do. Problem is i cant use fire elementals against them.
Fire storm would likely roast them good. But thats kinda far ahead.
And i doubted i would be able to do enough damage with fireballs to hordes of that size.
Not with the number of mages i had available. Well not besides in a castle bottleneck.

Precisely, sometimes it's best to hunker down inside a castle to benefit from the bottleneck. If you had bunkered inside Ermor and forced the Celadon hordes to go through the wall's chokepoint while you had a decently sized army instead of fighting them outside, you may still be in (partial) control of your capital.

Because it saves you a castle recruitment turn?
And i still doubt its extra enough to make a significant change in the grand sceme of things.
Especially considering both how unlikely it is, and how large a investment of time and effort it takes.

Fisherman spawn other pokemon besides magikarps and are decent troop carriers too.

This is, "recruit only Beauty Xs for over a year" did sound like a "how large a investment of time and effort", but look at where we're now. If Cerulean City had also gone full fisherman production...

Well yes the research bit is something they can likely catch up on swiftly, now that they have 2 fresh forts, and a chance to take 3 more.
And it was not a mistake. It is as such the only relevant way to get good comparison data on how much stronger a Pokemon nation is compared to a average human nation (crushing it utterly).
Since a normal game swings a lot, its this one thats an outlier in its large skill disparity. Normally you should have had your hands full with your own neighboors.
Though i am curious now. If your storm star crushed Celadon, then its likely a sign of that being even more in need of a nerf :P

Else, as i recall, now its also two against one though, that does mean your not facing the full green hordes alone.

Well now that they've got double my forts a bit of help is required. In particular because at this point if I just stood and watched the result would be pretty obvious, Cerulean City's making them bleed but still losing ground hard.

Still even if they double my mage production (unlikely since their forts probably lack labs and they probably want to keep beauty X spam), I still am a dozen turns of mage production or so ahead so they'll need their time to catch up. It'll still be a good while before Celadon is able to deploy any significant magic support for their own forces while my stormstars are on the frontlines now.

And if stormstar does crushes Celadon's hordes, that's still the plant pokemon armies being weaker than a strong but vanilla tactic, and maybe Ermor just got caught by surprise. If it was Hellheim valkyrie or a Pangaea white centaur rush, those are also pretty hard to stop early on. Celadon's still gonna get nerfs, but they may not need to be super heavy.

And i newer spotted your god, what was it, a Magnetron thingy? had guessed you went with an expander from how large you were.

Considering I was expanding right away on turn 1, yes I took an awake Magneton Emperor. I think you should've spotted them early when expanding into the mountains between us.



Also a small preview for Violet City in the works:

Spoiler

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[lord_khaine]

Or somebody brings fire to the party.
Really a shame we couldn't get a player for Cinnabar City.
Actually I think that's why Celadon picked you as their first target-you're the best fire nation in the current game, so they really didn't want to allow you to get your research on.
I can eventually get immortal fire/air Electrode Champions, but first need to research a bunch of thaumathurgy and set a lab on a wasteland and then it would take 4 turns each unless I also set up an upgraded fort...

I talked in general about normal nations against pokemone ones there.
Dont think fire played much into it. He had a NAP with you, that made me a nearby convenient target about his own size.

Precisely, sometimes it's best to hunker down inside a castle to benefit from the bottleneck. If you had bunkered inside Ermor and forced the Celadon hordes to go through the wall's chokepoint while you had a decently sized army instead of fighting them outside, you may still be in (partial) control of your capital.

Its perhaps a good reason to do so when you have a relief army on its way.
But in this case the relief army was the one located in Ermor.
At that point i had a simple choice.
Push him off my capital, so it can continue producing troops and mages. Or lose the game.
Being sieged at Ermor would just have been a slower defeat then, as he could then just have continued taking my land, while getting reinforcements.

Fisherman spawn other pokemon besides magikarps and are decent troop carriers too.
This is, "recruit only Beauty Xs for over a year" did sound like a "how large a investment of time and effort", but look at where we're now. If Cerulean City had also gone full fisherman production...

I still fail to see how the question "are fishermen broken or not" in any way changes that Beauty X is indeed broken.
As we just got an example of here. Something i by the way would like to point out, that i warned about the first time i tested the nation.

Well now that they've got double my forts a bit of help is required. In particular because at this point if I just stood and watched the result would be pretty obvious, Cerulean City's making them bleed but still losing ground hard.

Still even if they double my mage production (unlikely since their forts probably lack labs and they probably want to keep beauty X spam), I still am a dozen turns of mage production or so ahead so they'll need their time to catch up. It'll still be a good while before Celadon is able to deploy any significant magic support for their own forces while my stormstars are on the frontlines now.

They could have had noteworthy mage support at this point in a couple turns if they wanted to.
Though i guess, since they do mostly have nature magic, then they are likely better served by just continuing to spam Beauty X's a while longer.

And if stormstar does crushes Celadon's hordes, that's still the plant pokemon armies being weaker than a strong but vanilla tactic, and maybe Ermor just got caught by surprise. If it was Hellheim valkyrie or a Pangaea white centaur rush, those are also pretty hard to stop early on. Celadon's still gonna get nerfs, but they may not need to be super heavy.

No. I am a decently skilled player. I do know what i am doing, and i made the best possible attempt i could to stop Celadon.
But Ermor were still crushed in every single major engagement.
Even when i look back at things in hindsight, the only solution i have been able to come up with, were a tailored titan pretender as defensive SC.
That or some equally crazy tailored hellbless to specifically counter Celadon.

Considering I was expanding right away on turn 1, yes I took an awake Magneton Emperor. I think you should've spotted them early when expanding into the mountains between us.

I think i took it for a normal Magneton. But looking at those stats, i am suddenly wondering if that thing is just a touch to OP.
Since it clearly expanded like a old style earth Serpent.

Also a small preview for Violet City in the works:

I like the bird armor, but shield/axe is perhaps just a touch overkill.
Would think a spear in its feet where slightly more fitting?

[tyckspoon]

I think i took it for a normal Magneton. But looking at those stats, i am suddenly wondering if that thing is just a touch to OP.
Since it clearly expanded like a old style earth Serpent.

Removing or cutting back the corpse eating so it doesn't get infinity hit points might be appropriate, but aside from that 'high prot trampler' is a pretty standard expander monster setup and doesn't necessarily call for a nerf (possibly an increase in point cost, most of the Pokemon specific pretender chassis are fairly generously discounted.) Note that it's also got 4 stars worth of XP and may be in friendly dominion of undisclosed strength, so the screenshot does not necessarily represent its actual stats during expansion.

[lord_khaine]

Removing or cutting back the corpse eating so it doesn't get infinity hit points might be appropriate, but aside from that 'high prot trampler' is a pretty standard expander monster setup and doesn't necessarily call for a nerf (possibly an increase in point cost, most of the Pokemon specific pretender chassis are fairly generously discounted.) Note that it's also got 4 stars worth of XP and may be in friendly dominion of undisclosed strength, so the screenshot does not necessarily represent its actual stats during expansion.

These are fair points, but all the same then i cant recall any of the trampling monsters getting to unbuffed prot 31.
And im actually pretty certain that picture is taken outside of friendly dominion, since i cant see any bless effects on it.
I dont know what the baseline trampling monster is. But i kinda think Arc Armageddon compares very favorably to all of them.

Actually, he looks so strong that i would suggest he be held in reserve.
So that we can see if Vermillion can handle Cerulean without his aid.

[tyckspoon]

These are fair points, but all the same then i cant recall any of the trampling monsters getting to unbuffed prot 31.
And im actually pretty certain that picture is taken outside of friendly dominion, since i cant see any bless effects on it.
I dont know what the baseline trampling monster is. But i kinda think Arc Armageddon compares very favorably to all of them.

I would consider Thrice-Horned Boar and the Great White/Black Bulls to be the baseline trample monsters. Boar is base prot 16, bulls are 12, but they also all have large Berserker values and will get a significant increase as soon as something chips them. Boar with the same E paths would have 22 from the Earth inherent magic bonus, then up to 27 when it berserked. 27/32 if it took Hard Skin for bless, plus another 1 or 2 if you bother having it cast Bark/Stoneskin. Bulls have lower numbers, but they also have inherent Recuperation, so as long as they don't get outright killed they'll keep rampaging around anyway.

Stat-buff blesses wouldn't show up as separate images, so something silly like Str-Str-Precisionx6 could be used, but I acknowledge that there's no way to tell what effects dominion or bless is having on that image unless Deuterio wants to tell us.

[lord_khaine]

Hmm.. alright yeah they all cost about the same.
So Boar being the tankiest, would end at a baseline protection value of 27, compared to The Magnetron Emperors rather impressive 31.
And thats then without the issue of having increased encumberance from berserking.
As well as Slash/Pierce resistance (alright that grows less relevant with Temper flesh at alt 4)
Or for that matter stealth.

Else, stat blesses would show up on Arc Armegeddons stats. It does not have a Precision/strenght bless either.
So that HP amount comes from eating corpses. Its not realistic it can find 10 corpses each month though.
Oh and wait no, it gets the dominion hp bonus from where it were the previous turn.
All the same, it should have 200 hp at the end of the first year.

[deuterio12]

I talked in general about normal nations against pokemone ones there.
Dont think fire played much into it. He had a NAP with you, that made me a nearby convenient target about his own size.

But common wisdom would be going after the smaller, easier target first rather than picking a fight with somebody your own size.

Its perhaps a good reason to do so when you have a relief army on its way.
But in this case the relief army was the one located in Ermor.
At that point i had a simple choice.
Push him off my capital, so it can continue producing troops and mages. Or lose the game.
Being sieged at Ermor would just have been a slower defeat then, as he could then just have continued taking my land, while getting reinforcements.

I've seen players getting their cap sieged and still manage to turn the game around to victory (myself included). You had (and still have) other forts, and Ermor would need to leave a significant contigent to wear down a bunkered Ermor fort. Heck, one of my earliest MP victories consisted precisely of carefully choosing to let most of my forts get sieged then taking out the besieging armies one by one (and I was being ganked by multiple nations including freespawn Asphodel throwing hordes of manikins at my direction). A slow, grinding affair but it did work as I built up my mage corps and magic while my opponents tried to drown me in bodies. Research, summon stuff, even if normal recruitment is locked a sieged fort can still be productive.

And diplomacy's as valid as a weapon as any sword, spear or spell, if nothing else it would've bought you time to call for help.

I still fail to see how the question "are fishermen broken or not" in any way changes that Beauty X is indeed broken.
As we just got an example of here. Something i by the way would like to point out, that i warned about the first time i tested the nation.

Fair, you were prophetically right on that one.

Still since Sceleria isn't an auto-ban in vanilla games, there exists some middle ground where freespawn are not broken in a non-popkill nation.

I think i took it for a normal Magneton. But looking at those stats, i am suddenly wondering if that thing is just a touch to OP.
Since it clearly expanded like a old style earth Serpent.

Arc Armageddon was pretty good for expanding yes, now let's see how the Magneton Emperor fares against an actual army the OP Celadon hordes.

I like the bird armor, but shield/axe is perhaps just a touch overkill.
Would think a spear in its feet where slightly more fitting?

Spear flying infantry is what all flying nations do, I had the urge to see flying troops with axes for a change, I don't think there's any of those in vanilla. Also no way I'm letting all that sprite work go to waste.

Why overkill? Caelum has shielded fliers since forever. I can also make a custom axe with reduced damage.

These are fair points, but all the same then i cant recall any of the trampling monsters getting to unbuffed prot 31.
And im actually pretty certain that picture is taken outside of friendly dominion, since i cant see any bless effects on it.
I dont know what the baseline trampling monster is. But i kinda think Arc Armageddon compares very favorably to all of them.

Actually, he looks so strong that i would suggest he be held in reserve.
So that we can see if Vermillion can handle Cerulean without his aid.

I'm doing both. No matter how strong Arc Armageddon is, he can only be in one place at a time, so I'll get to compare how stormstar and stormstar+Magneton Emperor perform side by side.

Really need to get him some earth gems so he can unleash earthquake, then cloud trapeeze so I can surprise-drop him over Celadon's armies

I would consider Thrice-Horned Boar and the Great White/Black Bulls to be the baseline trample monsters. Boar is base prot 16, bulls are 12, but they also all have large Berserker values and will get a significant increase as soon as something chips them. Boar with the same E paths would have 22 from the Earth inherent magic bonus, then up to 27 when it berserked. 27/32 if it took Hard Skin for bless, plus another 1 or 2 if you bother having it cast Bark/Stoneskin. Bulls have lower numbers, but they also have inherent Recuperation, so as long as they don't get outright killed they'll keep rampaging around anyway.

Stat-buff blesses wouldn't show up as separate images, so something silly like Str-Str-Precisionx6 could be used, but I acknowledge that there's no way to tell what effects dominion or bless is having on that image unless Deuterio wants to tell us.

Sure, double Str boost and Air Shield, although in foul Celadon dominion so not benefiting from those right now.

Hmm.. alright yeah they all cost about the same.
So Boar being the tankiest, would end at a baseline protection value of 27, compared to The Magnetron Emperors rather impressive 31.
And thats then without the issue of having increased encumberance from berserking.
As well as Slash/Pierce resistance (alright that grows less relevant with Temper flesh at alt 4)
Or for that matter stealth.

Don't forget float, quite handy for getting around.

In the other hand Magneton Emperor has that fire vulnerability meaning a good spark in hot weather and he'll melt pretty fast.

Also generates unrest which is more of a disadvantage.

Else, stat blesses would show up on Arc Armegeddons stats. It does not have a Precision/strenght bless either.
So that HP amount comes from eating corpses. Its not realistic it can find 10 corpses each month though.
Oh and wait no, it gets the dominion hp bonus from where it were the previous turn.
All the same, it should have 200 hp at the end of the first year.

You would be surprised about the corpses, Magneton Emperor spent most turns expanding (notice the amulet of breathing for going after some UW provinces) and most of the few months that he wasn't murderizing indies was for site searching places that he had just rampaged around so there would be leftover corpses to snack on. I think he only spent one turn at a corpseless provinces when he went to grab the breathing amulet at the cap.

EDIT: An idea I just had about ranged Poké-attack spam, how about a general cut of their ammo accross the board? Like reducing to 40% so the strongest stuff like Hyper/bubble beam can only be used a couple times per battle and Acid would only have a dozen shots so a sustained barrage couldn't be maintained for long.

[lord_khaine]

But common wisdom would be going after the smaller, easier target first rather than picking a fight with somebody your own size.

Yeah.. we just dont know if he was listening to common wisdom.
And as we saw, Ermor was army-wise a smaller, easier target.

I've seen players getting their cap sieged and still manage to turn the game around to victory (myself included). You had (and still have) other forts, and Ermor would need to leave a significant contigent to wear down a bunkered Ermor fort. Heck, one of my earliest MP victories consisted precisely of carefully choosing to let most of my forts get sieged then taking out the besieging armies one by one (and I was being ganked by multiple nations including freespawn Asphodel throwing hordes of manikins at my direction). A slow, grinding affair but it did work as I built up my mage corps and magic while my opponents tried to drown me in bodies. Research, summon stuff, even if normal recruitment is locked a sieged fort can still be productive.

And diplomacy's as valid as a weapon as any sword, spear or spell, if nothing else it would've bought you time to call for help.

I had 1 other fort with decent recruitment capacity not under siege. And i had a fresh bunch of recruits from Ermor.
So no that was absolutely the best and only change i had at turning the war. Had i stayed inside i would just have continued to lose land while he took my other forts.
Because he did absolutely have the numbers to hold down Ermor, while cracking my other forts. One of them were only a single turn from breaking.

Fair, you were prophetically right on that one.

Still since Sceleria isn't an auto-ban in vanilla games, there exists some middle ground where freespawn are not broken in a non-popkill nation.

Well yeah there are nations where freespawn are less troublesome.
But the problem is, if we remove freespawn from Sceleria, we end up with a rather pathetic nation to be honest.
While initially when we look at Celadon, the freespawn isnt even apperant.

Why overkill? Caelum has shielded fliers since forever. I can also make a custom axe with reduced damage.

I think its mainly because it strain suspension of disbelief to much.
I mean, yeah, i can just about accept a Pikachu somehow managing to hold a spear in its paws.
But holding a axe with the wing you use for flying pushes it to far.

Don't forget float, quite handy for getting around.

In the other hand Magneton Emperor has that fire vulnerability meaning a good spark in hot weather and he'll melt pretty fast.

Also generates unrest which is more of a disadvantage.

I had trouble making use of float to get over rivers in my Yomi game, so guess i discounted it.
But dont think the unrest is a noteworthy disadvantage.
And fire vulnerability is less of a issue when you have 31-34 prot.
Or earth magic to remove that weakness (temper flesh)

You would be surprised about the corpses, Magneton Emperor spent most turns expanding (notice the amulet of breathing for going after some UW provinces) and most of the few months that he wasn't murderizing indies was for site searching places that he had just rampaged around so there would be leftover corpses to snack on. I think he only spent one turn at a corpseless provinces when he went to grab the breathing amulet at the cap.

No im not surprised you could find 10 corpses each month

EDIT: An idea I just had about ranged Poké-attack spam, how about a general cut of their ammo accross the board? Like reducing to 40% so the strongest stuff like Hyper/bubble beam can only be used a couple times per battle and Acid would only have a dozen shots so a sustained barrage couldn't be maintained for long.

Im not entirely certain just cutting ammo would do it.
That would still give pokemon armies a devastating alpha strike. Like Javlins on stereoids.
Maybe cutting range range a bit, reducing rate of fire on some attacks, while making others one thats only used sometimes would do it.
Again a shame we did not get better test data than "Pokemon armies melt regular ones when having a number advantage"

[deuterio12]

Yeah.. we just dont know if he was listening to common wisdom.
And as we saw, Ermor was army-wise a smaller, easier target.

I beg to disagree, at least your army could expand, the other Poké nations were struggling even against indies.

Well yeah there are nations where freespawn are less troublesome.
But the problem is, if we remove freespawn from Sceleria, we end up with a rather pathetic nation to be honest.
While initially when we look at Celadon, the freespawn isnt even apperant.

Of course, Celadon has only 1 freespawn commander while half of Sceleria's commanders are freespawners.

Plus Celadon's main path is still nature which is kinda lackluster.

I think its mainly because it strain suspension of disbelief to much.
I mean, yeah, i can just about accept a Pikachu somehow managing to hold a spear in its paws.
But holding a axe with the wing you use for flying pushes it to far.

Ah, but Pokémon already has a precedent in wings able to hold weapons thanks to Farfetch'd! Should probably add to the description that the axe birds learned their forbidden secret tequniques.

I had trouble making use of float to get over rivers in my Yomi game, so guess i discounted it.
But dont think the unrest is a noteworthy disadvantage.
And fire vulnerability is less of a issue when you have 31-34 prot.
Or earth magic to remove that weakness (temper flesh)

Meh, I'll probably drop the base protection a bit.

Im not entirely certain just cutting ammo would do it.
That would still give pokemon armies a devastating alpha strike. Like Javlins on stereoids.
Maybe cutting range range a bit, reducing rate of fire on some attacks, while making others one thats only used sometimes would do it.

Not a big fan of messing with firing rates but reduced ranges all around sounds like something more worth pursuing in particular since those were pretty much all being winged on the run since the pokémon games don't really put much difference on that.

Again a shame we did not get better test data than "Pokemon armies melt regular ones when having a number advantage"

Actually we did, half the pokémon nations ended up struggling for basic expansion. Really hope their players will give us some detail about how that came to be.

[lord_khaine]

I beg to disagree, at least your army could expand, the other Poké nations were struggling even against indies.

Clearly they were not big enough to be worth eating.

Of course, Celadon has only 1 freespawn commander while half of Sceleria's commanders are freespawners.

Plus Celadon's main path is still nature which is kinda lackluster.

Its not like the actual number of freespawn commanders matter.
Only how good the best one is. Because thats what the good one will hire.
And nature is normally lackluster. But Celadon got a lot of unique nature combat spells.
That we also sadly lack information on now.

Ah, but Pokémon already has a precedent in wings able to hold weapons thanks to Farfetch'd! Should probably add to the description that the axe birds learned their forbidden secret tequniques.

Well.. its hard to argue with precedence. Though perhaps a shield is still pressing it.

Meh, I'll probably drop the base protection a bit.

Drop it to Earth serpent level, and reduce corpse eater to 5?
Then it might be less likely to see the Magnetron Emperor eat entire armies.

Not a big fan of messing with firing rates but reduced ranges all around sounds like something more worth pursuing in particular since those were pretty much all being winged on the run since the pokémon games don't really put much difference on that.

Then just make it so they only have a chance to use their secondary ranged attack?
As it is i believe a lot of pokemon shoot 2 different weapons each round?
That should likely be reserved for the biggest pokemon.

Actually we did, half the pokémon nations ended up struggling for basic expansion. Really hope their players will give us some detail about how that came to be.

The explanation is lack of practice. Or absurdly bad luck.
Like single arrow hitting your commander in the head bad luck.
I have tested all the nations in the game. All of them can hit 15-18 provinces in a year, without a monster.

[deuterio12]

Vermillion city used Thunder+Lighting Strike spam!


It's not very effective...

Welp managed to kill or rout most of the little plants but that big block of Glooms held firm and tore through my electric rats and floating magnets triggering an auto-rout on my side.

Also seems like the battle report doesn't register kills from the voltorbs going boom.

Its not like the actual number of freespawn commanders matter.
Only how good the best one is. Because thats what the good one will hire.

If that was true, Sceleria would never hire any of their spawner-mages, only cultists.

And nature is normally lackluster. But Celadon got a lot of unique nature combat spells.
That we also sadly lack information on now.

There'll be more test games after the nerfs.

Well.. its hard to argue with precedence. Though perhaps a shield is still pressing it.

As long as it's not OP.

Drop it to Earth serpent level, and reduce corpse eater to 5?
Then it might be less likely to see the Magnetron Emperor eat entire armies.

It's not eaten any non-indie army yet, and after that battle at the rock cathedral I really don't feel like risking Arc Armageddon like that yet in particular when Celadon's city almost surrounded him with some 600 plant Pokémon.

Then just make it so they only have a chance to use their secondary ranged attack?
As it is i believe a lot of pokemon shoot 2 different weapons each round?
That should likely be reserved for the biggest pokemon.

There's the skip command that makes the next weapon be skipped after the previous is used. I could add it to all ranged weapons, make sure they're last in order plus re-organize them so the strongest go first and the weaker ones are only used if the first can't.

The explanation is lack of practice. Or absurdly bad luck.
Like single arrow hitting your commander in the head bad luck.
I have tested all the nations in the game. All of them can hit 15-18 provinces in a year, without a monster.

Well bad luck is unlikely to have struck half the nations simultaneously (although Saffron city did blame it on bad events and crashing against Cerulean and Celadon early on).

Speaking of which, can your fort at Cuna Eral hold another turn?

EDIT: But ok I surrender and will remove the freespwn from recruitable trainers. Still stand that there's a balance range, but finding it would be quite a lot of work.

EDIT EDIT: So some comments from the Celadon player over PM:

Well ... human nations are just a walkover for the Pokemon I think, so let's not count Ermor into the mix here. But yeah, I think, obviously, the freespawn mechanic is a bit broken. Honestly, it's still not on the level of Sceleria since the upkeep basically strangles your whole economy very quickly. If the Pokemon were upkeep free then it would be completely broken, now it forces a world war immediately since I need to use those troops every turn. It's a bit of an interesting mechanic, but maybe not the kind you intended ;>As for the units, my impression is that the tangelas are close to useless - possibly niche uses for fighting heavy cavalry (weapon lenght 0 hood attack against poison skin). They have no PR which means you will loose ALL of them in any battle, regardless of outcome. I guess they function to soak up enemy melee, but most of the time you want the enemy to barge into your poison cloud anyway and I simply wouldn't pay any gold for them if I could avoid it, not even upkeep and I would prefer any other unit to spawn basically. For being meat-shield units, they are too expensive and fragile.The other units are OK .... but I think you might have missed out on the implications of making those acid attacks AOE 1! When massed, even a bunch of 5 damage attacks will eventually start to leak through, and it is also really helpful in conditions where you miss a lot of shots (dark caves etc.). If Celadon had earth magic to boost the damage of those attacks, it would get pretty OP quick, but unfortunately for me, no earth mages so far.Acid damage is also a particularly nasty damage type, considering there is no way to protect against it except natural protection. No immunities, no spells.I think you will need to rebalance the units quite a bit if you want Celadon to be competitive without the bonkers free spawn though. If I were to pay gold for these armies they would be very weak for what I
I'd pay for them. I see many other strong strategies for other nations, but Celadon really only seems to have this one card it can pull. Research needs to be re-balanced across the nations as well, I think there were like two nations that had decently affordable research mages?
Also, lightning spam doesn't work that well against 10 SR troops. If they didn't have that you would have wiped that army.

So seems like he actually considers the Celadon troop rooster kinda weakish when you're not getting them as freespawn outside the Aoe acid.

Also complaining about the lack of research monkeys all around. This is many EA nations lack cheap mages for research, but if more people insist I could add cheaper research monkeys all around.

[lord_khaine]

It's not very effective...

Welp managed to kill or rout most of the little plants but that big block of Glooms held firm and tore through my electric rats and floating magnets triggering an auto-rout on my side.

Also seems like the battle report doesn't register kills from the voltorbs going boom.

Your at least lucky not being outnumbered 4 to 1 :P
In return it does seem some pokemon nations are extremely vulnerable to each other.
Or resistant.

If that was true, Sceleria would never hire any of their spawner-mages, only cultists.

Those are not hired because they are spawners.
But because they are communion mages.

It's not eaten any non-indie army yet, and after that battle at the rock cathedral I really don't feel like risking Arc Armageddon like that yet in particular when Celadon's city almost surrounded him with some 600 plant Pokémon.

Hmm.. would almost think he could potentially beat such an army.
He is powerful, both physically and magically.

There's the skip command that makes the next weapon be skipped after the previous is used. I could add it to all ranged weapons, make sure they're last in order plus re-organize them so the strongest go first and the weaker ones are only used if the first can't.

I do think its more flavorwise if the pokemon cyckles between their different attacks.
Thats why i suggested giving the ranged attacks a 50% not to be used on small pokemon with 2 ranged attacks.

Well bad luck is unlikely to have struck half the nations simultaneously (although Saffron city did blame it on bad events and crashing against Cerulean and Celadon early on).

Speaking of which, can your fort at Cuna Eral hold another turn?

Yeah.. i was just being polite when calling it bad luck :P
Though to be fair, having 2 expansion armies eaten does also sound like massively bad luck.
ANd yes it can.

EDIT: But ok I surrender and will remove the freespwn from recruitable trainers. Still stand that there's a balance range, but finding it would be quite a lot of work.

Well i have not directly disagreed on there being a balance range.
Just on it being an insanely big task to find on a nation so unusual as this.

So seems like he actually considers the Celadon troop rooster kinda weakish when you're not getting them as freespawn outside the Aoe acid.

Also complaining about the lack of research monkeys all around. This is many EA nations lack cheap mages for research, but if more people insist I could add cheaper research monkeys all around.

Well.. i disagree with him on the freespawn being weaker than Sceleria's, but thats a minor detail.
On the other hand i can see the argument that Celadon is a bit weak without, at least compared to the other pokemon nations.
They are massively powerful nature mages, but nature dont really have much combat magic other than the nation specific one.
Well.. in part i think their age shows a bit. They are one of the older nations, but didnt get one of the refits that delivered TSM's or knights to other nations.
Perhaps you should pause the new nation, and return to Celadon?

Do disagree about research mages though.
Celadon has the twins who are a better research mage than most others get.
Besides that, as you say, its EA. There are many nations who dont have good lab monkeys.
With as powerful and diverse mages as the Pokemon nations get, then i dont think they need strong research mages.
They can take magic 3, luck 3, or a rainbow if they want better magic.

[deuterio12]

Your at least lucky not being outnumbered 4 to 1 :P
In return it does seem some pokemon nations are extremely vulnerable to each other.
Or resistant.

Well it goes with type advantage/disadvantage. I wonder if I should add some "counter-meta" options with pokémon with off-type moves representing usage of TMs for wider coverage.

Although vanilla dominions has such cases as well, like Caelum vs Lemuria.

Those are not hired because they are spawners.
But because they are communion mages.

But they're still spawners and will be used as such (like when sieging an enemy fort).

Bigger point is that Sceleria gets a balanced mix of both mages and cultists, while Celadon city ended up recruiting almost exclusively Beauty Xs. But I digress.

Hmm.. would almost think he could potentially beat such an army.
He is powerful, both physically and magically.

Maybe Earthquake can do the trick, but need to load Arc Armageddon with earth gems first.

I do think its more flavorwise if the pokemon cyckles between their different attacks.
Thats why i suggested giving the ranged attacks a 50% not to be used on small pokemon with 2 ranged attacks.

Welp although that's doable, the problem is that I'll need to make new versions of every such ranged attack and then manually assign them to the "small" Pokémon so it's a lot of extra work but you're right it's flavourful so I guess I'll just need to pull up my sleeves and get down to it.

EDIT: Aaaand nevermind, the "50% chance to use" only works for melee attacks. The closest I can do is make half of them have fire at half rate + #skip so hopefully they alternate fire.

EDIT EDIT: Aaaandd #skip doesn't seem to be doing anything and now they just alternate between using 1 and 2 ranged weapons. Seems like it only works for melee too.

So it simply can't be implemented at the moment.

Yeah.. i was just being polite when calling it bad luck :P
Though to be fair, having 2 expansion armies eaten does also sound like massively bad luck.
ANd yes it can.

Great, gives me time to get some magnemite rider thugs on their way.

Well i have not directly disagreed on there being a balance range.
Just on it being an insanely big task to find on a nation so unusual as this.

Seems like we're agreeing then.

Well.. i disagree with him on the freespawn being weaker than Sceleria's, but thats a minor detail.
On the other hand i can see the argument that Celadon is a bit weak without, at least compared to the other pokemon nations.
They are massively powerful nature mages, but nature dont really have much combat magic other than the nation specific one.
Well.. in part i think their age shows a bit. They are one of the older nations, but didnt get one of the refits that delivered TSM's or knights to other nations.
Perhaps you should pause the new nation, and return to Celadon?

Sooo at the top of my head, none of the grass Pokémon really seem fit to work as knights. How does it sound to add furs oddish like furs geodude for fighting in cold climate and heavy bellsprout and evolutions using vines to hold spear and shield?

Do disagree about research mages though.
Celadon has the twins who are a better research mage than most others get.
Besides that, as you say, its EA. There are many nations who dont have good lab monkeys.
With as powerful and diverse mages as the Pokemon nations get, then i dont think they need strong research mages.
They can take magic 3, luck 3, or a rainbow if they want better magic.

My thoughts too.

[lord_khaine]

Well it goes with type advantage/disadvantage. I wonder if I should add some "counter-meta" options with pokémon with off-type moves representing usage of TMs for wider coverage.

Although vanilla dominions has such cases as well, like Caelum vs Lemuria.

It is a bit exceptional in that matchup, the type advantage that is.
But the ghost nations are like that. And perhaps not to well designed.
Likely it will work if most pokemon nations have physical options to fall back on.

But they're still spawners and will be used as such (like when sieging an enemy fort).
Bigger point is that Sceleria gets a balanced mix of both mages and cultists, while Celadon city ended up recruiting almost exclusively Beauty Xs. But I digress.

I do think thats a rather pedantic point. You dont hire the mages because "oh! these can also spawn while sieging"
You hire them because that the mage you get. And then go "oh.. hey? these can do something useful while im sieging this fort down"

But its not like Sceleria or Celadon gets anything but gold. Their player then end up deciding how to spend it.
And i have seen Sceleria go full out skeletons. And gone for a mix with Celadon myself.

Maybe Earthquake can do the trick, but need to load Arc Armageddon with earth gems first.

I was more thinking Air Shield, Earthpower, flying shield and then put on the stompy boots.

So it simply can't be implemented at the moment.

Well.. an attempt was made. Just a shame its not possible.
Do worry about how powerful the pokemon blasting is. So still think reduced rate of fire, or reducing each pokemon to 1 shot, should at least be considered.

Sooo at the top of my head, none of the grass Pokémon really seem fit to work as knights. How does it sound to add furs oddish like furs geodude for fighting in cold climate and heavy bellsprout and evolutions using vines to hold spear and shield?

Hmm no, i dont know if the bulbasaur line ever gets large enough for it. And likely noone wants to sit behind the laser flower.
As for cold climates. Well it does not affect ranged units that badly. And there are other cold blooded nations who are likely screwed even worse fighting in the cold.
Thats solved by pushing your own heat dominion.
That said. im not entirely certain how fitting spears and shields are on plant pokemon.
But we also saw they as such didnt need that in sufficient numbers, raining acid is a great general solution.
And razor leafs then handle most other targets who are to tough.

[deuterio12]

I was more thinking Air Shield, Earthpower, flying shield and then put on the stompy boots.

What scares me of trying to just got Magnetonzilla is that tangelas still have their armor-negating wrap 1 damage attack so may manage to take down Arc Armageddon by a thousand tiny cuts.

Well.. an attempt was made. Just a shame its not possible.
Do worry about how powerful the pokemon blasting is. So still think reduced rate of fire, or reducing each pokemon to 1 shot, should at least be considered.



Hmm no, i dont know if the bulbasaur line ever gets large enough for it. And likely noone wants to sit behind the laser flower.
As for cold climates. Well it does not affect ranged units that badly. And there are other cold blooded nations who are likely screwed even worse fighting in the cold.
Thats solved by pushing your own heat dominion.
That said. im not entirely certain how fitting spears and shields are on plant pokemon.
But we also saw they as such didnt need that in sufficient numbers, raining acid is a great general solution.
And razor leafs then handle most other targets who are to tough.

I believe it's more the Acid being Aoo that the real problem here. Granting an Aoo attack to spammable troops was a big mistake, in particular since being Aoo ignores (air)shields to boot besides hitting everybody in the square. I should've known better after you warned me about Bubblebeam but I thought "how bad can it be with just Aoo1?" and welp, here we are.

Case in point testing the new Heavy Bellsprouts with nerfed Acid and despite reaching protection 19 with their armor+natural protection plus shields, they still got defeated in a ranged duel by a big blob of markatas flinging poop sticks and stones at them.

[lord_khaine]

What scares me of trying to just got Magnetonzilla is that tangelas still have their armor-negating wrap 1 damage attack so may manage to take down Arc Armageddon by a thousand tiny cuts.

Oh yeah that is a sizeable amount of damage until he is done trambling them all. Quickly adds up to 5 AN per square, or something like 40 damage per round.

I believe it's more the Acid being Aoo that the real problem here. Granting an Aoo attack to spammable troops was a big mistake, in particular since being Aoo ignores (air)shields to boot besides hitting everybody in the square. I should've known better after you warned me about Bubblebeam but I thought "how bad can it be with just Aoo1?" and welp, here we are.

Well its perhaps not that bad that a nation almost purely based on range wont get utterly (censored) by someone casting Arrow Fend.
But maybe the Acid AOO attack should have a lower fire rate or something. Reduce range to 10, reduce rate of fire to 1/2 or 1/3, then it might not utterly screw people.
Still.. yes alright perhaps the acid AOO attack should not be from a basic pokemon. Perhaps an evolved form.

Case in point testing the new Heavy Bellsprouts with nerfed Acid and despite reaching protection 19 with their armor+natural protection plus shields, they still got defeated in a ranged duel by a big blob of markatas flinging poop sticks and stones at them.

I still think perhaps not all pokemon nations should put spear and shields on their pokemon. I dont think its quite fitting here.
How about instead initially, giving Bellsprout air shield 50 to represent how annoyingly hard it is to hit whats basically a moving rope with an arrow?

Then Celadon go heavily in on putting crushed nature gems into the water, and plant Bellsprouts in close ranks.
So that the new garden Bellsprout ends up being size 2 without bad formation fighter.
This variant would have a weaker acid attack than its wild cousins. Instead, being str 10 means its vine whip will wreck even knights.

And let Celadon develop the fancy technology of leather.
In particular leather armor for Para and parasect. It would of course increase encumberance slightly.
But buff prot. And it can be soaked in water before a battle to reduce fire vulnerability. To perhaps 2-3.

That should improve the basic troop lineup a little?
As for their magic diversity. Perhaps Reduce nature magic 1 on the Spring cooltrainer. And give her 1 random point divided among all her other paths.

And increase HP of the Venosaur champion by perhaps.. 8.
Reduce its nature magic by 1, give it another random.
then develop a TSM for it that gives vineshield and and a lesser stat boost to hp&Prot.

That should do a bit to make Celadon interesting and viable without freespawn.
Now it has slightly more magic, armor piercing infantry, and Venusaur thugs.

You could then also add a gardening beauty. N1H1 spellsinger.
Who might both get a national spell for making Garden Bellsprout.
And have a national N1H1 spell for creating them in battle.

[deuterio12]

Well its perhaps not that bad that a nation almost purely based on range wont get utterly (censored) by someone casting Arrow Fend.

There are some spells that just shut down certain nations. Like Xibalba has a very bad time when somebody casts storm (and even a worst time if somebody casts Perpetual storm).

Besides I don't think arrow fend would be that much of a killer app since plenty of Pokémon aren't exactly slouches in melee either.

But maybe the Acid AOO attack should have a lower fire rate or something. Reduce range to 10, reduce rate of fire to 1/2 or 1/3, then it might not utterly screw people.
Still.. yes alright perhaps the acid AOO attack should not be from a basic pokemon. Perhaps an evolved form.

Hmmm, what ranged attack for the basic grass mons then? Razor leaf is a bit of heresy since they're only meant to learn it after Acid but I'm willing to overlook that. Or no ranged attack at all for oddish/bellsprout and just make them melee only to make full use of their poison auras?

I still think perhaps not all pokemon nations should put spear and shields on their pokemon. I dont think its quite fitting here.
How about instead initially, giving Bellsprout air shield 50 to represent how annoyingly hard it is to hit whats basically a moving rope with an arrow?

Then Celadon go heavily in on putting crushed nature gems into the water, and plant Bellsprouts in close ranks.
So that the new garden Bellsprout ends up being size 2 without bad formation fighter.
This variant would have a weaker acid attack than its wild cousins. Instead, being str 10 means its vine whip will wreck even knights.

And let Celadon develop the fancy technology of leather.
In particular leather armor for Para and parasect. It would of course increase encumberance slightly.
But buff prot. And it can be soaked in water before a battle to reduce fire vulnerability. To perhaps 2-3.

That should improve the basic troop lineup a little?
As for their magic diversity. Perhaps Reduce nature magic 1 on the Spring cooltrainer. And give her 1 random point divided among all her other paths.

And increase HP of the Venosaur champion by perhaps.. 8.
Reduce its nature magic by 1, give it another random.
then develop a TSM for it that gives vineshield and and a lesser stat boost to hp&Prot.

That should do a bit to make Celadon interesting and viable without freespawn.
Now it has slightly more magic, armor piercing infantry, and Venusaur thugs.

You could then also add a gardening beauty. N1H1 spellsinger.
Who might both get a national spell for making Garden Bellsprout.
And have a national N1H1 spell for creating them in battle.

Most of those sound good, just don't really want to make attacks with the same name but different stats. Pokémon all share the same pool of attacks. Dancing air shield acid-less size 2 garden bellsprout it will be (that evolves into size 3 airshield acidless garden weepinbel and size 4 garden Victreebel).

Although maybe you missed it but the most recent released version already has a Venusaur Vine graft item. Although no extra prot/HP (yet).

Also shield bellsprout and furs oddish stay since I already coded them and prepared the sprites and no way I'm letting them go to waste now plus I've grown to quite like the view of pokémon with badge shields and assorted weapons

[lord_khaine]

Hmmm, what ranged attack for the basic grass mons then? Razor leaf is a bit of heresy since they're only meant to learn it after Acid but I'm willing to overlook that. Or no ranged attack at all for oddish/bellsprout and just make them melee only to make full use of their poison auras?

Ahh good question. Razor Leaf is perhaps a viable choice here?
Still nasty enough to make a decent in armored people. But not as bad as a crossbow at going though both shield and guy behind.

Most of those sound good, just don't really want to make attacks with the same name but different stats. Pokémon all share the same pool of attacks. Dancing air shield acid-less size 2 garden bellsprout it will be (that evolves into size 3 airshield acidless garden weepinbel and size 4 garden Victreebel).

Although maybe you missed it but the most recent released version already has a Venusaur Vine graft item. Although no extra prot/HP (yet).

Also shield bellsprout and furs oddish stay since I already coded them and prepared the sprites and no way I'm letting them go to waste now plus I've grown to quite like the view of pokémon with shields and assorted weapons

Im glad you like them. Hopefully they should make Celadon a little more fun. And potentially also be ready for next game. After Celadon wins this one.
Hah.. also fair if you already made sprites. I think i find the idea of shields on some pokemon a little to silly.
But oh well, my fault for not suggesting this earlier :D

And yeah i missed the Vine graft on the latest release.
All the same, then i do still think it need more than vine shield to survive even just fighting PD.

[tyckspoon]

And yeah i missed the Vine graft on the latest release.
All the same, then i do still think it need more than vine shield to survive even just fighting PD.

Vine Shield plus native paths to cast regen should make it highly resistant to unkillable for most PD, especially combined with almost any other decent buff (haven't looked at the files for a while - do they have the crosspath for Mossbody, for example? Or just a poison cloud so all they really need to do is stand in the middle of a block of troops and let the vineshield trap them in place while they poison to death.)

[lord_khaine]

Vine Shield plus native paths to cast regen should make it highly resistant to unkillable for most PD, especially combined with almost any other decent buff (haven't looked at the files for a while - do they have the crosspath for Mossbody, for example? Or just a poison cloud so all they really need to do is stand in the middle of a block of troops and let the vineshield trap them in place while they poison to death.)

Well.. problem is it only has around 20 hp.
So a lucky hit from a big sword can 1-shot it.
But yes they do have poison cloud.
Else they can random f, s or d.
But they cost 300 gold. So normally i would not dare risking them like that.

[tyckspoon]

Well.. problem is it only has around 20 hp.
So a lucky hit from a big sword can 1-shot it.
But yes they do have poison cloud.
Else they can random f, s or d.
But they cost 300 gold. So normally i would not dare risking them like that.

Oh, right. I keep thinking most of the Pokemon champions are beefier than they actually are - probably mentally comparing them with Onyx (although even then Pewter's other champions are actually pretty fragile.)

[deuterio12]

After dancing around with a big army near our borders Pewter City finally decided to backstab me. It just doesn't feel like proper dominions mp to me if somebody isn't backstabbing me. 11 Onyxes plus a bunch of gravelers and rhyhorn riders, but just a golem champion and rhyhorn rider prophet for leader. Also +5 protection bless so 27 protection onyxes. Ah well may as well gather some data on Vermillion vs Pewter.

Also spotting Pewter underwater, kinda funny since it seems like Cerulean themselves didn't reach for the seas (heck, eve Celadon took UW provinces).

Ahh good question. Razor Leaf is perhaps a viable choice here?
Still nasty enough to make a decent in armored people. But not as bad as a crossbow at going though both shield and guy behind.

Ok, razor leaf it will be.

Im glad you like them. Hopefully they should make Celadon a little more fun. And potentially also be ready for next game. After Celadon wins this one.
Hah.. also fair if you already made sprites. I think i find the idea of shields on some pokemon a little to silly.
But oh well, my fault for not suggesting this earlier :D

And yeah i missed the Vine graft on the latest release.
All the same, then i do still think it need more than vine shield to survive even just fighting PD.

Those changes shouldn't take too much time, so definitely should have them ready soon.

Mind you I think Celadon will still take some time to win even if they keep roflstomping everything in their path since they haven't actually taken any throne yet unless everybody agrees to surrender.

Oh, right. I keep thinking most of the Pokemon champions are beefier than they actually are - probably mentally comparing them with Onyx (although even then Pewter's other champions are actually pretty fragile.)

The formula I've been using is that champions have twice the HP of their "normal version" while the legendary pretenders have 4x the HP of normal versions, but I'm willing to try something beefier for the champions like x3 normal HP.

[lord_khaine]

After dancing around with a big army near our borders Pewter City finally decided to backstab me. It just doesn't feel like proper dominions mp to me if somebody isn't backstabbing me. 11 Onyxes plus a bunch of gravelers and rhyhorn riders, but just a golem champion and rhyhorn rider prophet for leader. Also +5 protection bless so 27 protection onyxes. Ah well may as well gather some data on Vermillion vs Pewter.

Oh yeah, another thing we would likely want data on in the matchup with a regular nation.
Am uncertain about how it would handle groups of prot 27 tramplers. I cant really see any of my regular units making a dent in them.
Though can then also see i need to guard my back against Pewters player if there is a new round.

Those changes shouldn't take too much time, so definitely should have them ready soon.

Mind you I think Celadon will still take some time to win even if they keep roflstomping everything in their path since they haven't actually taken any throne yet unless everybody agrees to surrender.

Well.. i do see its only a matter of time now? Celadon likely gets to digest me and Cerulean in peace now your being scratched from behind.
At that point i think its over but the crying.

The formula I've been using is that champions have twice the HP of their "normal version" while the legendary pretenders have 4x the HP of normal versions, but I'm willing to try something beefier for the champions like x3 normal HP.

Wow.. does a size 3 Venusaur then only have 10 hp? or did you forget to increase the champions hp here?
Else, i mean 20 hp is in the lowest range for a size 3 unit.

[deuterio12]

Oh yeah, another thing we would likely want data on in the matchup with a regular nation.
Am uncertain about how it would handle groups of prot 27 tramplers. I cant really see any of my regular units making a dent in them.
Though can then also see i need to guard my back against Pewters player if there is a new round.

If he's up for another round it would be pretty nice, could use all the players now that there's a couple more nations.

Well.. i do see its only a matter of time now? Celadon likely gets to digest me and Cerulean in peace now your being scratched from behind.
At that point i think its over but the crying.

Well sometimes in dominions mp you just need to set your own goals and in this case mine will be now finding a way of stopping that Onyx horde. Quite kind of Pewter from bringing just one doomstack when they could've just as easily sneaked multiple onyxes and then took a bunch of my provinces at once.

Wow.. does a size 3 Venusaur then only have 10 hp? or did you forget to increase the champions hp here?
Else, i mean 20 hp is in the lowest range for a size 3 unit.

Ups, you're right, seems like I only adopted that philosophy midway and forgot to update the older nations champions and legendary pretenders.

Just in time, was about to upload the new version. Will wait a bit more now to check again or in case you have some more right.

[lord_khaine]

If he's up for another round it would be pretty nice, could use all the players now that there's a couple more nations.

Would be nice with some more human nations as well. To give more pokemon on human action going.

Well sometimes in dominions mp you just need to set your own goals and in this case mine will be now finding a way of stopping that Onyx horde. Quite kind of Pewter from bringing just one doomstack when they could've just as easily sneaked multiple onyxes and then took a bunch of my provinces at once.

Indeed. It can be Onyx will be in need of a minor nerf if you cant figure something out that involves multiple mages.
Thinking about it, then they were also exceptionally nasty.

Ups, you're right, seems like I only adopted that philosophy midway and forgot to update the older nations champions and legendary pretenders.

Just in time, was about to upload the new version. Will wait a bit more now to check again or in case you have some more right.

At the moment i have mostly looked at Celadon, since thats what got into focus here.
I think the unit changes and magic updates will leave them viable without their freespawn. And at the same time make them a bit more fun.
And double hp on the venusaur should turn it into a quite survivable thugh.

Im not entirely certain its a good idea to throw the new nations out to direct playtest in a game?
Would it not be a better idea to finish off the current batch, and get all kinks worked out of them.
The current game has been scewed by Celadon after all.

[deuterio12]

Indeed. It can be Onyx will be in need of a minor nerf if you cant figure something out that involves multiple mages.
Thinking about it, then they were also exceptionally nasty.

My best and only plan right now is getting as many lucha libres and runners as possible and hope armor-piercing double kick spam does the trick. Even then I'll need to buff them a bit.

At the moment i have mostly looked at Celadon, since thats what got into focus here.
I think the unit changes and magic updates will leave them viable without their freespawn. And at the same time make them a bit more fun.
And double hp on the venusaur should turn it into a quite survivable thugh.

Im not entirely certain its a good idea to throw the new nations out to direct playtest in a game?
Would it not be a better idea to finish off the current batch, and get all kinks worked out of them.
The current game has been scewed by Celadon after all.

Releasing new shiny nations should help keep other people interested, and I can always release a special version with the newer nations disabled for the next mp game easily enough.

[lord_khaine]

My best and only plan right now is getting as many lucha libres and runners as possible and hope armor-piercing double kick spam does the trick. Even then I'll need to buff them a bit.

Yeah you do have that option.
Im meanwhile trying to decide if non-pokemon non-giant nations are utterly screwed.

Releasing new shiny nations should help keep other people interested, and I can always release a special version with the newer nations disabled for the next mp game easily enough.

Yeah you can of course just make a development version, and a playtest version.
That would solve the issue.

[tyckspoon]

Indeed. It can be Onyx will be in need of a minor nerf if you cant figure something out that involves multiple mages.
Thinking about it, then they were also exceptionally nasty.

They're 265 gold apiece and reclimit 1 - 11 of them represents 2,600 gold and a full year worth of recruitment. That being dangerous isn't needing a nerf, it's working as intended. A full year of recruitment of anything good should be something you have to work to counter. You *should* need mages, task-built counter thugs, or a mass quantity of good/buffed troops to deal with Onyx, same as you don't throw a handful of random recruits at an elf-thug and expect them to be able to deal with it. (Admittedly counter thugging is made a bit more difficult by there being basically no good Blunt damage type weapons, so you're still dealing with slash/pierce resist. Still, a couple dudes with decent Defense scores, Armor Piercing or Negating weapons, and enough morale to not immediately get Feared away should be able to dismantle Onyx.) If you do want to nerf them, maybe reduce their Magic Resistance, so they can be more readily affected by the same sorts of things that are already used to defeat 'single big ugly enemy' tactics with MR-negate kill/cripple/charm spells?

Edit: Water nations, incidentally, will laugh at people trying to Onyx storm them, because Water Elementals are pretty much a perfect counter to them and most of the rock pokemon. Multiple high-damage AP blunt type attacks, enough Defence to be hard for them to hit, multiple shapes to keep them in the fight if they do happen to get tagged. Water magic in general has a few ways to pop an Onyx, Frozen Heart and Freezing Mist probably foremost for the nations that can easily cast it.

Double Edit: Possible other nerfs- Remove Berserk. This will make them vulnerable to morale and subject to HP routing with the rest of a supporting army, if the Onyx are a small enough fraction of the army, without significantly changing their threat level otherwise thanks to having only Berserk 1 anyways. Or, leave Berserk alone and make them Undisciplined. Can't as easily mix them with other units and they won't hold still to be buffed or blessed, not without doing some work arranging formations and positioning.

[lord_khaine]

Im really glad for your contribution towards this topic Tyck. Its good to have a 3rd perspective on this matter.

And here right now my worry is more that you dont need 11 Onyxes to kill an army, but that 2-3 will do.
As well as that you with the right magic can recruit them from.. i think it was all caves?

But yes alright. Perhaps they should require mages to counter properly.
Part of my worry were on someone showing their stone snakes down the throat of another player in yeah 0.
Where there isnt really any possible counter play.
Another worry is that being sacred means its easy and cheap to make them thunder resistant.
Without that the number of viable spells shrinks.

I mean, shock resistance, hard skin, suddenly im doubtful whats left to deal with them in the 0-4 range of magic.

[tyckspoon]

Im really glad for your contribution towards this topic Tyck. Its good to have a 3rd perspective on this matter.

And here right now my worry is more that you dont need 11 Onyxes to kill an army, but that 2-3 will do.
As well as that you with the right magic can recruit them from.. i think it was all caves?

But yes alright. Perhaps they should require mages to counter properly.
Part of my worry were on someone showing their stone snakes down the throat of another player in yeah 0.
Where there isnt really any possible counter play.
Another worry is that being sacred means its easy and cheap to make them thunder resistant.
Without that the number of viable spells shrinks.

I mean, shock resistance, hard skin, suddenly im doubtful whats left to deal with them in the 0-4 range of magic.

They're already shock resistant enough to not give a damn about Lightning Bolts. Would have to go all the way to Thunderstrike, and that's not an early-research solution, especially not in the numbers you'd need to deploy to make it work. Their weaknesses are basically terrible Defense stat and at best average Attack stat - high defense troops can just dodge them (admittedly, will need to check on how the AoE attack on Slam interacts with that) and they're basically *always* going to be hit in melee. Sacreds with a Strength-heavy bless have pretty good chances of chipping through that, Cold Aura will just straight up knock them out within like 2 turns of exposure, and of course Cold Blooded means they don't really want to be fighting in Cold domain anyways, because they'll be half asleep by the time they even make contact in combat. Outside of sacreds, cavalry/flyers with a good lance charge can deal good damage to them, with the lance damage bonus and Piercing damage type negating some of the protection. Pierce resist does make that somewhat trickier, of course. Ideal response would probably be Maul Barbarians, but of course no single nation can depend on having access to those. Unholy Weapon bless would be an answer, but it's kind of an extreme approach. (Being in EA does make this more difficult, as there's relatively little troop variety and no crossbows. 'Shoot it with a bunch of AP projectiles' is a surprisingly versatile answer when crossbows are available.)

For recruitment, how many EA Cave provinces do you see that can support 135 recruitment points? Onyx troops are cap-only or summoned, for any practical purpose; the foreign recruit sites are going to be used for Champions, if anything.

Edit: Now, if you want to see something that just makes you go 'I have no idea how to deal with that'.. take a Boulder Badge, give 'em Regeneration and Major + Minor Cold Resist, plus.. I dunno, Strength or double Reinvig or something, because taking that 4th point of Earth is more or less free for that chassis. Can even take it Awake and still get Order and Growth, depending on your tolerance for sinking the rest of your scales. If you aren't planning on a year 0 rush, it fits very comfortably as Dormant, either with better scales or pushing the Earth bless up to include Hard Skin.

Double Edit: Ok, spun up a quick test game. Slam does not appear to check against Defense; the Very Detailed log is just going straight to damage vs prot. It can be Repelled, but a Berserk Onyx is never going to fail that check and is unlikely to fail it with their very high base morale even before getting berserk triggered. That's.. problematic, as it's negating one of the few things that is a legitimate weak point for them. I believe I was the one who suggested giving them an AoE attack in the first place, but I think I have to retract that now, as the only real solutions I can see to them at this point are 'spam Frozen Heart/be Niefelheim and hope they didn't bless Cold Resist' or 'suicide a lot of maul-equipped barbarians at them.'