Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

[Wizard_Lizard]

So, I was just rereading oots and Roy's sister saiid that she was true neutral, since all of Roy's family are lawful good, does that mean that she won't end up in the same afterlife as her family?

[Aveline]

I would presume so.

Per the other Eugene thread, it seems Eugene is probably True Neutral as well, so if he ever gets off the cloud he can probably look forward to an afterlife with his daughter.

[Wizard_Lizard]

huh.
Are all wizards in oots neutral?
V
Roy's sister
Eugene

[understatement]

huh.
Are all wizards in oots neutral?
V
Roy's sister
Eugene

No.
Praise Larry Gardener

But most of the Evil wizards to tend to have Neutral tendencies on the law/chaos.



Also, can Roy be killed in his celestial state? And if Eugene can still use some spells, can Julia occasionally pop over for a visit?

[Borris]

Also, can Roy be killed in his celestial state? And if Eugene can still use some spells, can Julia occasionally pop over for a visit?

If Winstriker can visit Miko, I'm sure the Greenhilts will be able to visit each other.

[Caerulea]

If Winstriker can visit Miko, I'm sure the Greenhilts will be able to visit each other.

No.

*Banana's wisdom*

Visiting people of a different alignment...didn't Soon promise Miko that Windstriker would come to visit her as often as he was able? Whatever destination Miko ended up in, it probably wasn't Celestia. It was probably one of those less cushy places you mentioned. Yet she's going to be able to receive a visitor from Celestia from time to time, unless Soon was being Jedi-honest and really meant that the horse would visit her as often as he could, which was never. In which case he should go to hell for lying, but I digress. If the gods can issue celestial day passes to horses, why is the same impossible for mortal souls?

Because they don't. Yes, they could, but they don't.

This is not a debate. You asked why X is a certain way in this comic strip. I, the author, am telling you why. Windstriker is not a dead soul, he is a living Celestial creature; he is not bound by the same rules. He needs a pass because he is in the service of the Twelve Gods and will likely be assigned to another paladin at some point, from whom he must get permission before going on a trip. If he were unemployed, he would be free to go to whatever plane he could find a way to travel to. Dead souls have no such freedom.

[bolding mine]

—Caerulea

[Aquillion]

That might just be a general rule, though (ie. spirits lack an inherent way to change planes.) We know dead people can still cast spells, so it's possible a ghost with Plane Shift could use it to visit people.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Mko is going to acheron or the nine hells for being lawful stupid.

[Reboot]

That might just be a general rule, though (ie. spirits lack an inherent way to change planes.) We know dead people can still cast spells, so it's possible a ghost with Plane Shift could use it to visit people.

Don't spirits that try to go to another outer plane in 3.5e just end up auto-teleported back to the centre?

OTOH, I believe TN souls (uniquely) can end up in another afterlife as chunks of the TN plane itself periodically drift into the other planes?

[Peelee]

I think it's really crappy that Tennessee gets its own plane. It's not like they built the moon rocket or anything.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Don't spirits that try to go to another outer plane in 3.5e just end up auto-teleported back to the centre?

OTOH, I believe TN souls (uniquely) can end up in another afterlife as chunks of the TN plane itself periodically drift into the other planes?

that woud make sense. Sucks if it drifted into the abyss for a few decdes.

[Rogar Demonblud]

So, I was just rereading oots and Roy's sister said that she was true neutral, since all of Roy's family are lawful good, does that mean that she won't end up in the same afterlife as her family?

No, it means that right now, in her mid-teens, she's True Neutral. We have no idea what she'll end up as when she's older.

[Squire Doodad]

I suspect that the afterlife hosts have certain arrangements to allow for family members to visit each other. However, I imagine that the one who must initiate contact will have to be the Good member of the family (or Neutral if the case may be). After all, if you have one person who is a great hero and one who is a maniacal sadist who spent three years torturing their younger sibling, you don't want the sadist to be actively reaching out to their heroic sibling because they'll just cause pain. If the heroic sibling wishes to see them though, that might be more possible.

No matter what, it would be harsh to not let people see their relatives/adoptive-family, though I imagine there's a bit of metaphysical paperwork to take care of to do so.

And while the souls themselves cannot travel at will without spells, the Archons and Devas would probably be more than willing to facilitate a meeting. There's probably a pub in the first tier of the NG Afterlife dedicated to having family members meet from different parts of the afterlife (since TN is kind of a weird place, and LG or CG represents a more specific mindset, NG works best). Let's call it...hm... The Pub at the Beginning of the Afterlife.

[Darth Paul]

No matter what, it would be harsh to not let people see their relatives/adoptive-family, though I imagine there's a bit of metaphysical paperwork to take care of to do so.

This is going to sound really bad, but... well, let's say my brother and I were both OOTS characters, OK? And given the plane he's likely to end up on, I wouldn't really want anything to do with him in the afterlife any more than I do now, unless people can reform themselves up there (down there?) and change their alignment posthumously. (And personality too.)

[Wizard_Lizard]

This is going to sound really bad, but... well, let's say my brother and I were both OOTS characters, OK? And given the plane he's likely to end up on, I wouldn't really want anything to do with him in the afterlife any more than I do now, unless people can reform themselves up there (down there?) and change their alignment posthumously. (And personality too.)

same. my brother is kind of lawful good while I am chaotic neutral.

[Squire Doodad]

This is going to sound really bad, but... well, let's say my brother and I were both OOTS characters, OK? And given the plane he's likely to end up on, I wouldn't really want anything to do with him in the afterlife any more than I do now, unless people can reform themselves up there (down there?) and change their alignment posthumously. (And personality too.)

Presumably there's consent needed on both ends, but I don't want to go write out the framework for 92% of an Afterlife. I'm not Dante, nor am I starting a religion.
Also my sympathies.

[Mandor]

If Winstriker can visit Miko, I'm sure the Greenhilts will be able to visit each other.

Is there actual Word of Giant that Miko is going somewhere other than Celestia? I always thought Miko was in fact Lawful Good throughout her life.... simply also Delusional and seeing the world through Miko-only-lenses. It was one of the things that made her so interesting as an antagonist... she was a defender of the law and basically good, just her perceptions so WARPED by her delusion of personal destiny. I mean, yes, she committed an evil act and lost her Paladinhood. No disputing that one. And she doesn't get to be a paladin again afterwards. Soon was clear on that, too.

But up until the final week of her life, she was still a paladin. That's got to be a fairly long track record of Lawful Good, no?

I just assumed Windstriker could visit her down on the lowest level of Celestia until some day when Miko finally realized it wasn't actually all about her. and then she could start climbing.

[Darth Paul]

Is there actual Word of Giant that Miko is going somewhere other than Celestia?

Summon Banana V!!

But I think it's strongly implied by her conversation with Soon that the manner of her Fall (an unambiguously Evil act, striking down her defenseless liege lord who also happened to be an octogenarian) excluded her from the LG afterlife. She might possibly have shifted to LN, considering her actions over the many strips we saw and her devotion to the letter but not the spirit of her professed alignment. Consider Roy's review: the Deva told him that trying was the most important thing. He followed the spirit but not always the letter.

I would argue that Miko wasn't trying to be Lawful Good any more; she was rules lawyering her alignment.

[Peelee]

I certainly wouldn't peg her as Truth, Justice, and the Celestial Way.
ETA:

.
I would argue that Miko wasn't trying to be Lawful Good any more; she was rules lawyering her alignment.

I disagree, and think she fell into the same trap that ensnared Gin Jun.

Spoiler: Scar

Show

She was so concerned with whether what she was doing was Good or Lawful, that she didn't take any time to consider whether it was right or just.

[Squire Doodad]

Summon Banana V!!

But I think it's strongly implied by her conversation with Soon that the manner of her Fall (an unambiguously Evil act, striking down her defenseless liege lord who also happened to be an octogenarian) excluded her from the LG afterlife. She might possibly have shifted to LN, considering her actions over the many strips we saw and her devotion to the letter but not the spirit of her professed alignment. Consider Roy's review: the Deva told him that trying was the most important thing. He followed the spirit but not always the letter.

I would argue that Miko wasn't trying to be Lawful Good any more; she was rules lawyering her alignment.

I agree; Miko is probably going to have a 3 hours discussion with the relevant Deva(s) about her alignment, but no matter what she won't be LG. She almost definitely is LN, I could see an argument for TN (Chaotic ends for Lawful means and such) and maaaybe LE but Miko isn't selfishly doing things for herself so much as it is that she is superimposing her worldview such that it interferes with her intentions. She does believe herself to be a force of good, and her choice to snap Sabine's neck instead of going along with her does mean more than you'd expect for the LN iteration over the LE one.

Just because she claimed to be LG and attempted to lead a LG lifestyle doesn't mean she is LG Afterlife compatible. Also, the whole bisecting unarmed octaganerian leige-lord and then Falling thing, while not necessarily enough by itself for LG to go into LE, also is a really big black mark. Even if it is the only black mark in one's life, you need to seriously and intentionally make up for that to not be pushed down. If Miko had realized she had done something terrible, given herself up to the authorities peacefully, and taken the punishment willingly, she would have an argument that she was trying to make amends but died a bit soon.

[Reboot]

Remember, there's nine alignments, but 16 main afterlife plains. There is a plane (Arcadia) between "true" LG and "true" LN.

(Also, once again we see one of the fundamental rules of this board - threads allowed to continue will inevitably tend toward talking about Miko)

[hamishspence]

Remember, there's nine alignments, but 16 main afterlife plains. There is a plane (Arcadia) between "true" LG and "true" LN.

17 - the 16 of the Wheel, and 1 for TN - the Outlands - the "hub of the Wheel".

[Darth Paul]

I disagree, and think she fell into the same trap that ensnared Gin Jun.

Spoiler: Scar

Show

She was so concerned with whether what she was doing was Good or Lawful, that she didn't take any time to consider whether it was right or just.

Y...y...yess..... only, in Miko's case, she assumed that, as the leading Paladin of the Sapphire Guard, she was automatically doing what was Right and Just. Dispensing steely death to those who opposed her was only Right and Just, because she is the embodiment of Law and Good. All she had to do was retroactively justify how her acts were Lawful, because she was the Law, and Good because she was Good by definition... and if you're Lawful and Good, can you do anything else? By definition? Sort of like a rogue cop deciding they can make up the law as they go along.

(Also, once again we see one of the fundamental rules of this board - threads allowed to continue will inevitably tend toward talking about Miko)

Or Star Wars.

Or, what if Miko had been a character in Star Wars??

[Ruck]

I suspect that the afterlife hosts have certain arrangements to allow for family members to visit each other.

I mean, direct word from the creator is that they do not.

I certainly wouldn't peg her as Truth, Justice, and the Celestial Way.

She seems more like "There's only one right path," although she frequently expresses it more like "My way or the highway." The "one right path" is pretty much "whatever Miko thinks is right at any given moment."

ETA:

I disagree, and think she fell into the same trap that ensnared Gin Jun.

Spoiler: Scar

Show

She was so concerned with whether what she was doing was Good or Lawful, that she didn't take any time to consider whether it was right or just.

Spoiler: Scar I guess, even though there's no book content; also minor for Origin of PCs

Show

I find it hard to separate right/just from Good. I think Gin-Jun's problem was more akin to the paladin Roy first adventures with, where he only cared about doing the minimum to maintain his alignment. Killing "generally Evil" creatures is still Good enough, so he stays Good. Miko I think was just far more deluded about her own righteousness and infallibility.

Darth Paul is right, I think.

[Peelee]

Spoiler: Scar I guess, even though there's no book content; also minor for Origin of PCs

Show

I find it hard to separate right/just from Good. I think Gin-Jun's problem was more akin to the paladin Roy first adventures with, where he only cared about doing the minimum to maintain his alignment. Killing "generally Evil" creatures is still Good enough, so he stays Good. Miko I think was just far more deluded about her own righteousness and infallibility.

Darth Paul is right, I think.

Killing Evil creatures regardless of why apparently is enough to count as Good, but I wouldnt call it right or just.

[Darth Paul]

Killing Evil creatures regardless of why apparently is enough to count as Good, but I wouldnt call it right or just.

I agree completely with that point. The Giant has illustrated multiple ways of how not to be a paladin, and they all center around being more concerned with either being Lawful Good or making others be Lawful Good, than with actually following the law and doing good. In other words, Justice and Right. Being a Paladin is actions, not lip service.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Plus the disconcerting detail that most Evil creatures will be killed by other Evil creatures (the Blood War alone will see to that). Hard to see fiends getting into the Upper Planes, no matter how many Evil-ites they've slaughtered.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Plus the disconcerting detail that most Evil creatures will be killed by other Evil creatures (the Blood War alone will see to that). Hard to see fiends getting into the Upper Planes, no matter how many Evil-ites they've slaughtered.

Outsiders don't go to afterlives. It varies depending on the Outsider in question, but most just re-meld with their plane of origin and at some point their essence gets spewed back out as another of their kind. Some, usually Evil, Outsiders are formed from mortal souls but even those remeld with their origin plane upon death. That's why regular Raise Dead (and derivatives) fail to return Outsiders and require a specific, higher level spell for it.

[Snails]

I certainly wouldn't peg her as Truth, Justice, and the Celestial Way.
ETA:

I disagree, and think she fell into the same trap that ensnared Gin Jun.

Spoiler: Scar

Show

She was so concerned with whether what she was doing was Good or Lawful, that she didn't take any time to consider whether it was right or just.

And that is different from ruleslawyering her alignment how?

Killing Evil creatures regardless of why apparently is enough to count as Good, but I wouldnt call it right or just.

While that may well be a sentiment that Miko and a certain elf with goblin prisoners may hold, do you actually believe that such is a general argument that is accepted by most Good characters/gods in the OotsVerse?

[Ruck]

Killing Evil creatures regardless of why apparently is enough to count as Good, but I wouldnt call it right or just.

Sure, I guess what I mean is that [spoiler character] was only interested in doing Good in the most technical, "I like killing them and I have to have a good justification in order to keep my paladin powers" sense. Sort of like [other spoiler character].