Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

[Kish]

I'm thinking more "villain allies with people, one of the allies has doubts, villain kills said person and asks if anyone else wishes to reconsider."

I don't think "has doubts" is a terribly good match for what Samantha does.

[Darth Paul]

I don't think "has doubts" is a terribly good match for what Samantha does.

How about "attempts a violent coup"?

[Peelee]

I think Eugene could easily be classed with Miko as far as "had been pushing the boundaries of Lawful Good for years", just in a different way.

Whereas Miko had been following her alignment to maintain her Paladin class requirements so she could slay evildoers, Eugene was very likely raised Lawful Good and didn't think about it that much, like going to church for most people. He obeyed the law and didn't do anything outright Evil, but also didn't do much affirmatively Good either; so his character could be summed up as "Lawful Self-Centered" when it comes down to it.

As far as Enor and Ganji, they're Evil only so far as Boba Fett would be Evil. They work for an Evil empire because that's where the money is; they don't care about justice because there's no money in it. By the end of BRitF they're perfectly willing to join the good guys because the bad guys double-crossed them. That screams Neutral to me.



I just read the whole meeting as proof that Miko had no people skills whatsoever. Expecting a father to work with the person who just chopped down his daughter, however justified they were... who really thinks that's happening? (And if he DID go along with her, it would only be for the chance to insert some cutlery between her ribs ASAP.)

That meeting showed Miko was not a people person in the sand way that Herman Melville showed that Ahab was an avid fisherman.

I don't think "has doubts" is a terribly good match for what Samantha does.

True, but that's the closest analog I can think of.

[Prinygod]

I'm thinking more "villain allies with people, one of the allies has doubts, villain kills said person and asks if anyone else wishes to reconsider."

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0189.html
I suppose you could read into that as an implied threat, considering miko still has their sword drawn. But villains usually explicit in demands, and Miko lacks subtly.

[Keltest]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0189.html
I suppose you could read into that as an implied threat, considering miko still has their sword drawn. But villains usually explicit in demands, and Miko lacks subtly.

Within the context of the book, Miko is definitely the villain of the story, or at least the main antagonist. Having said that, I believe Peelee is trying to make the point that Miko's actions are definitely not going to inspire genuine loyalty or cooperation.

[AstralFire]

I understand, but i maintain she starts right out the gate as somewhat unhinged.

To me, it's clear the narrative wanted to establish her as "kind of a jerk good". Some kind of flawed good. I am coming around to the idea that the ways in which her goodness are flawed are not, perhaps, as consistent as they could have been. What's consistent is her perceived superiority, but the ways in which it manifests change.

EDITED OUT PARAGRAPH CAUSED BY MISREADING

I joined the comic during the hiatus after Roy's death, so I never understood the interest in Miko, but I think I get it a bit better now. She shows elements that in another narrative, for example, could have made her a member of the party, as some sort of dark but good inverse to the lead. I seem to recall there were some similar expectations for undead Durkon floating around before it was clear the vampire had the real Durkon trapped.

[Darth Paul]

"kind of a jerk good"

I like that description.

She shows elements that in another narrative, for example, could have made her a member of the party, as some sort of dark but good inverse to the lead.

Miko clearly has elements that could have made her The Lancer to Roy, the person who says the unpleasant things that need to be said and shoots Old Yeller when that dog needs to die. But Haley and Belkar are already in that role (especially Belkar). Miko would have been redundant from a character standpoint if she joined the party.

[AstralFire]

While we're doing criticism, your comment led me to remember that while Haley already had a fairly substantial arc, I still feel like she's not a very compelling character in the role of second in command. I like her well enough, but as much as I hated Belkar, I feel like him taking the dark counterpoint after Durkon died was the most compelling bit of writing we've had on that point.

I wonder if she's set for any more leadership arcs.

[Darth Paul]

Haley was second-in-command because she appointed herself to keep track of the treasure IIRC, not because she had any actual command ability. I think that was the point; she was totally out of her depth without Roy.

[Keltest]

Haley was second-in-command because she appointed herself to keep track of the treasure IIRC, not because she had any actual command ability. I think that was the point; she was totally out of her depth without Roy.

Haley has actually demonstrated decent tactical ability, so to that end having her be number 2 makes sense.

[Peelee]

Haley has actually demonstrated decent tactical ability, so to that end having her be number 2 makes sense.

She did have soloc tactical abilities, but she wasn't very strategic, which turned into her big failing.

[Darth Paul]

She did have soloc tactical abilities, but she wasn't very strategic, which turned into her big failing.

As a strategic adviser, she had some shining moments, such as spotting Xykon's play at Azure City. So as second to Roy, she fulfilled her role when the crunch came. But when forced to command, she lost sight of the long-term goals.

[Peelee]

As a strategic adviser, she had some shining moments, such as spotting Xykon's play at Azure City. So as second to Roy, she fulfilled her role when the crunch came. But when forced to command, she lost sight of the long-term goals.

Long term goals are strategic. Figuring Xykon's game was tactical.

[Jasdoif]

Haley was second-in-command because she appointed herself to keep track of the treasure IIRC, not because she had any actual command ability. I think that was the point; she was totally out of her depth without Roy.

Something like that.

Spoiler: It Was an Involved Thread

Show

We could discuss, for example, how the Giant could have achieved his goals while empowering Haley as a strong leader (or, perhaps, if he could have achieved his goals while doing so, or if the goal of empowering the male leader necessitated that his replacement was not nearly as good as him in order to lend him confidence when it faltered, as per #881), and many other topics.

The goal, in this case, was to keep true to Haley's previously-established character. And her established character was a rule-breaking individualist with trust issues and a moderate contempt for authority who self-selected herself as second-in-command by swindling the other party members with no expectation of it ever coming up. It would have made no sense to violate that existing character 60% of the way through the story just so we could tick the "Strong Female Leader Depicted" box for the comic. That's not who Haley is, and I don't need to force her growth in that direction because it's OK to not be a leader. Not everyone in the world is good at the same things, and I take exception to the idea that only leadership positions "count." Chaotic is just as valid as Lawful in this story, it's just that Lawful tends to be a lot better at working in groups.

If you want to rag on me for not having other female leader characters, fine, whatever. Fair point. But I stand by my depiction of Haley. I am very much in favor of representation, but it doesn't help anyone for me to throw out my female character's entire personality just to satisfy an arbitrary desire to fill a role. If I do that, aren't I saying that who she is as an individual doesn't matter as much as which gender she is?

Also, Haley reunited the party and resurrected Roy. I'd take her track record over Nale's any day, and I don't see anyone questioning his legitimacy as a leader.

While I understand what you're trying to say, I merely point out that perhaps it could have been possible to preserve the goals you're trying to achieve with the character while still portraying her as a strong leader. Of course, this would've somewhat lessened the impact of Belkar's speech to Roy, but it's possible to preserve most of it by having Haley state that it's not that she's bad at leadership, she just doesn't like it or want it (because she's an individualist, and doesn't like having that kind of responsibility), thereby retaining some of the punch of Belkar's "you are a valuable team member" speech to Roy.

Well, I would argue that Haley's previously-established characteristics would lead her to say she was bad at it, because she has a tendency toward self-criticism. Certainly, Thanh and Niu never expressed that she was a bad leader.

We don't really have much information on what happened during the three months she spent being the leader of that third/quarter of the Azure Resistance, so it's possible that she might have been a good leader then. All we have on it is Roy's comment about how "she's been doing well for herself", which is somewhat ambiguous as to whether it refers to her leadership skills or if whether merely surviving in such a hostile and dangerous environment wouldn't count as "doing well" on its own.

When you lead a group living behind enemy lines, they're one and the same. And given that Thanh and Niu and the rest of the Resistance unquestioningly looked to Haley as their leader even though she is not even native to the country said everything that was needed about how well she did in the intervening time. After all, it's not like there weren't two other options they could have joined instead. The only people who disputed her effectiveness were Belkar (who was half the problem), and herself.

[AstralFire]

Second in command in fiction (and to a lesser extent, in real life) is about a different set of leadership skills that generally do fall more under tactics than strategy and being the opposite to whichever of good cop/bad cop the leader has.

My expressed interest in Haley is not for her to turn into just as good a leader as Roy; just to make her feel like a necessary part of the group dynamic. At the moment I feel like she's kind of optional in most big scenes. I feel her impact most when she's with Elan but it's very small.

Possible recency bias is at play, it's been a good while since I read through the whole thing again. Then again I know she had a whole thing with the Crystal Golem but I can't even remember what happened exactly there, I found it much less memorable than the other Haley subplots.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Most of Haley's impactful contributions have been in the various subplots.
Same goes for Elan.

[skaddix]

I mean the point of a second command in the 5 or 6 man party is too fill in the holes of the Leader. Ergo Haley provides a Thief Prospective that Roy lacks which allows her not to fall for Redcloack Lich Shell Game.

[Lvl45DM!]

I mean the point of a second command in the 5 or 6 man party is too fill in the holes of the Leader. Ergo Haley provides a Thief Prospective that Roy lacks which allows her not to fall for Redcloack Lich Shell Game.

This. Being a second-in-command is a different and equally vital skillset than being the leader

[Wizard_Lizard]

This. Being a second-in-command is a different and equally vital skillset than being the leader

Because some situtions recquire a different viewpoiny.

[Darth Paul]

When I said "out of her depth", I meant as far as the overall goals of defeating Xykon and Redcloak. She became so invested in leading the resistance that she never looked up to see a bigger picture; and she actually, as I remember, expressed a fear of leaving in case Elan and Durkon returned the very moment she had left. She went into a holding pattern instead of forming any affirmative plans beyond day-to-day raiding, at which she was extremely good.

[Wizard_Lizard]

When I said "out of her depth", I meant as far as the overall goals of defeating Xykon and Redcloak. She became so invested in leading the resistance that she never looked up to see a bigger picture; and she actually, as I remember, expressed a fear of leaving in case Elan and Durkon returned the very moment she had left. She went into a holding pattern instead of forming any affirmative plans beyond day-to-day raiding, at which she was extremely good.

She is a very short term planner.
Whereas Durkon is a very long term planner.

[Rogar Demonblud]

All Durkon did was sit back and take orders from Hinjo. Ditto Elan. Oddly, the only person working on getting everyone back together so they could move forward was V, the one with the most issues relating to other people.

[Peelee]

Oddly, the only person working on getting everyone back together so they could move forward was V

....the one who explicitly left half the remaining party and outright said they most likely wouldn't want to reunite them with Haley and Roy?

Is that your final answer?

[Darth Paul]

V may have been trying to find a way to communicate with Haley, but it was expressly because of the guilt trip they were on because their magic wasn't powerful enough to save everyone in the first place. The quest for ultimate arcane power is what consumed V and led to their abandoning Elan and Durkon, then the confrontation with the ABD, deal with the IFCC, and the rest of that arc.

It certainly wasn't an attempt to move forward. It was a personal quest to prove that magic could save the day.

[understatement]

She doesn't plan long-term goals to defeat Xykon and Redcloak because she knows their power levels are incomparable. There's practically nothing she can do about it, not with the Order's most powerful members gone.

[Peelee]

She doesn't plan long-term goals to defeat Xykon and Redcloak because she knows their power levels are incomparable. There's practically nothing she can do about it, not with the Order's most powerful members gone.

Long term goals:

Step 1: Get the most powerful members back.
Step 2:

[Rogar Demonblud]

More correctly:

1: get Haley and Roy's body back
2: let Durkon do his weird not-real-magic thing to bring Roy back
3: toss all remaining problems at Roy.

Like I said, V was the only one working on bringing the group together. Eventually, even V tossed that aside. The Order really is nonfunctional (as opposed to dysfunctional) without Roy.

[Peelee]

More correctly:

1: get Haley and Roy's body back
2: let Durkon do his weird not-real-magic thing to bring Roy back

That'd be quite the trick, since as previously linked, V was perfectly willing to just abandon Durkon well before Roy was rezzed.

[Rogar Demonblud]

And as noted, V decided to abandon the Azurite fleet and Elan/Durkon to try and find enough peace and quiet to get work done. You are attributing the end state to the entire split-party arc instead of just the last act.

[Clistenes]

I think Eugene could easily be classed with Miko as far as "had been pushing the boundaries of Lawful Good for years", just in a different way.

Whereas Miko had been following her alignment to maintain her Paladin class requirements so she could slay evildoers, Eugene was very likely raised Lawful Good and didn't think about it that much, like going to church for most people. He obeyed the law and didn't do anything outright Evil, but also didn't do much affirmatively Good either; so his character could be summed up as "Lawful Self-Centered" when it comes down to it.

We don't know much about Eugene's past... besides hunting for Xykon, he was an adventurer for years... he probably allied with good adventurers and fought against evil threats...

Still a self-centered jerk, but a jerk who most often took the right side...

As far as Enor and Ganji, they're Evil only so far as Boba Fett would be Evil. They work for an Evil empire because that's where the money is; they don't care about justice because there's no money in it. By the end of BRitF they're perfectly willing to join the good guys because the bad guys double-crossed them. That screams Neutral to me.

Getting people tortured and killed for your own benefit is evil. In the Empire of Blood you can be sentenced to die in the arena for public urination...

But I guess they are considered True Neutral rather than Evil because they care a lot for each other and are willing even to die for each other...

I just read the whole meeting as proof that Miko had no people skills whatsoever. Expecting a father to work with the person who just chopped down his daughter, however justified they were... who really thinks that's happening? (And if he DID go along with her, it would only be for the chance to insert some cutlery between her ribs ASAP.)

I think that's proof of Miko not being right in her head, rather than just lacking social skills... Her principles were Lawful and Good, but her perception of the world was skewed and deformed... She was lucky she was part of an organization that kept her on the right track... until she decided to make her own judgements, and then she screwed herself...