OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread

[The_Weirdo]

She's better than every signle dwarf ever herself included? Don't get me wrong: that's impressive but I question the logistics.

And yet, take a look at Sigdi. You know it's true.

[Ironsmith]

She's better than every signle dwarf ever herself included? Don't get me wrong: that's impressive but I question the logistics.

I would presume that'd be more limited to "every single dwarf currently alive", but even then, there's kind of the issue of the sheer scale there. But I'm also not sure why she herself would be included in that set, given that we're comparing her to them, but if it helps, she probably is better than herself, inasmuch as she's continued to undergo self-improvement.

[Fyraltari]

I would presume that'd be more limited to "every single dwarf currently alive", but even then, there's kind of the issue of the sheer scale there. But I'm also not sure why she herself would be included in that set, given that we're comparing her to them, but if it helps, she probably is better than herself, inasmuch as she's continued to undergo self-improvement.

Because I see no reason to assume she doesn't belong to a Clan. That's like saying "Person X is better than everybody who has a people." Everybody has one.

[Ironsmith]

Because I see no reason to assume she doesn't belong to a Clan. That's like saying "Person X is better than everybody who has a people." Everybody has one.

Well, yes, but I mean that comparison to a set would imply exclusion from that set. Practically speaking, "X person of Y qualifications is better than all of Y qualifications" is more or less equivalent to "X person is the best of those with Y qualifications" or "X person is better than all others with Y qualifications". It's not technically what's in the sentence, but it's the typically-understood meaning.

[Particle_Man]

Another reason she won’t get her arm fixed; all the money for that will be needed for another worthy purpose.

[Peelee]

Another reason she won’t get her arm fixed; all the money for that will be needed for another worthy purpose.

What money? Words are free, gestures are free, Durkon's already got his divine focus, and I'm sure hell give her the friends and family discount.

[The_Weirdo]

What money? Words are free, gestures are free, Durkon's already got his divine focus, and I'm sure hell give her the friends and family discount.

Which poses the question: why did no one in the Church of Thor, after yanking her son away from her by exiling him that way, ever try to make some amends by doing these free gestures?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Because I see no reason to assume she doesn't belong to a Clan. That's like saying "Person X is better than everybody who has a people." Everybody has one.

Not to mention that, as was already pointed out, that taking money away from a clan whose power depends on money, land, and titles, will make them double down on restoring it by employing the other two. Like all of the "easy" solutions the_weirdo proposes, they are either useless of horrific (or both).

"Do you really think that family is a matter of money?" said Lord de Worde.
"We-ll, yes, according to history. Money, land, and titles," said William. "It’s amazing how often we failed to marry anyone who didn't have at least two out of three."

(I'm rather surprised that this quote wasn't already floating around the Internet quote archives, BTW)

And that's not even going into why forced wealth redistribution simply switches one boss for another, since being poor is no more predictive of "worthiness" than being rich, as was already hinted at by Peelee. Money is a power multiplier: awful people that are rich are more noticeable than awful people that are poor because they have the money to act, but moving money around simply switches which awful people employ their money to do awful things. How many poor clans would take The_Weirdo's plans to become the new Firehelms? If the answer is "at least 1", then we're back were we started.

Grey Wolf

[The_Weirdo]

Not to mention that, as was already pointed out, that taking money away from a clan whose power depends on money, land, and titles, will make them double down on restoring it by employing the other two. Like all of the "easy" solutions the_weirdo proposes, they are either useless of horrific (or both).


(I'm rather surprised that this quote wasn't already floating around the Internet quote archives, BTW)

And that's not even going into why forced wealth redistribution simply switches one boss for another, since being poor is no more predictive of "worthiness" than being rich, as was already hinted at by Peelee. Money is a power multiplier: awful people that are rich are more noticeable than awful people that are poor because they have the money to act, but moving money around simply switches which awful people employ their money to do awful things. How many poor clans would take The_Weirdo's plans to become the new Firehelms? If the answer is "at least 1", then we're back were we started.

Grey Wolf

Well, the system cannot continue as is; something must be done. Taking away the lands and titles too, for instance.

[Ironsmith]

And that's not even going into why forced wealth redistribution simply switches one boss for another, since being poor is no more predictive of "worthiness" than being rich, as was already hinted at by Peelee. Money is a power multiplier: awful people that are rich are more noticeable than awful people that are poor because they have the money to act, but moving money around simply switches which awful people employ their money to do awful things. How many poor clans would take The_Weirdo's plans to become the new Firehelms? If the answer is "at least 1", then we're back were we started.

Grey Wolf

Further objection: he claims all the clans need to be made destitute because of the reported off-panel actions of one. I think we can all agree that's a bit disproportionate in principle, yeah?

[The_Weirdo]

Further objection: he claims all the clans need to be made destitute because of the reported off-panel actions of one. I think we can all agree that's a bit disproportionate in principle, yeah?

Not really. These are people who get into money, lands and political power by accident of birth. They have no merit to keep enjoying power.

[Peelee]

Which poses the question: why did no one in the Church of Thor, after yanking her son away from her by exiling him that way, ever try to make some amends by doing these free gestures?

Because his exile was off the books and largely unknown to the CoT, I'd wager as a main reason.

[The_Weirdo]

Because his exile was off the books and largely unknown to the CoT, I'd wager as a main reason.

Then either the head Cleric must answer for that or the CoT itself, as an institution.

Things must be made fair to the oppressed.

[Peelee]

Then either the head Cleric must answer for that or the CoT itself, as an institution.

Things must be made fair to the oppressed.

Durkon was the oppressed, not Sigdi, in that case.

[The_Weirdo]

Durkon was the oppressed, not Sigdi, in that case.

Well, they made it quite certain that she'd spend a very long while without hearing from - and, likely, about - her son (all the time until he learned Sending) and that he'd not get to fix her arm for quite a long while as well.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Durkon was the oppressed, not Sigdi, in that case.

I'm not sure Durkon was oppressed, either. As off the books it might have been, it was still well within the HPoT's wheelhouse to send one of his clerics on an extended mission outside the dwarven lands. Heck, sending clerics off to extend the reach of the church is practically 50% of the job.

Grey Wolf

[Ironsmith]

Well, they made it quite certain that she'd spend a very long while without hearing from - and, likely, about - her son (all the time until he learned Sending) and that he'd not get to fix her arm for quite a long while as well.

He couldn't fix her arm in the first place, Weirdo.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

He couldn't fix her arm in the first place, Weirdo.

Nor could anyone else in the Church of Thor, in fact. Heck, one could argue this was the most efficient way of ensuring that Durkon would be able to fix his mom's arm, by giving him the opportunity to gain levels in an adventuring setting.

Is there a pithy quote about consequences counting for more than intentions? There must be. Sort of like "close only counts in horseshoes and hand granades".

Grey Wolf

[The_Weirdo]

He couldn't fix her arm in the first place, Weirdo.

But he could have adventured at home to get the levels to.

Also, the other part of the matter is still there. The CoT should have fixed her arm long ago for what it did.

[Resileaf]

Regenerate is a lvl 7 spell. Uncommon are the clerics who can cast lvl 7 spells.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Sigdi is a saint and should probably be Empress of the Universe. She stands as an indictment to every other character in the story.

Not O-Chul.

Now I want a comic where O-Chul and Sigdi meet and talk.

[Ironsmith]

Not O-Chul.

Now I want a comic where O-Chul and Sigdi meet and talk.

*commences shipping*

[Keltest]

But he could have adventured at home to get the levels to.

Also, the other part of the matter is still there. The CoT should have fixed her arm long ago for what it did.

Pretty much definitionally, adventures do not happen at home. The fact that there were no clerics in Firmament who could cast Regenerate would tend to confirm that staying at home does not give you that kind of power.

[Aveline]

Sigdi is a saint and should probably be Empress of the Universe. She stands as an indictment to every other character in the story.

If I were ever to sig anything, it would probably be this.

[Fyraltari]

Which poses the question: why did no one in the Church of Thor, after yanking her son away from her by exiling him that way, ever try to make some amends by doing these free gestures?

Because it did not. Hurak (and two thugs) threw Durkon out and ordered him not to come back until told so. But Durkon was never exiled. Hurak’s commitment to secrecy (making Blackmore swear not to tell) and hiding it to his successor is strong evidence that sending Durkon on a wild goose chase was beyond his legal authority. And Durkon knew from the beginning that this mission was a lie. When the only thing oppressing someone is the victim’s insistance to follow orders they know are not legal, then there is no oppression to speak of.

Besides if the CoT is to be held accountable to Hurak’s actions then it is to be held for Durkon’s own. Yet I don’t see you arguing that Roy should make up for the Church giving him a resurrection free of charge.

Well, the system cannot continue as is; something must be done. Taking away the lands and titles too, for instance.

Now, that is the spirit of the day. I am still baffled however, by your sustained belief that the Clans are somehow a social elite separate from the rest of dwarven society, rather than a division of said society each segments containing (or not) both elites and commoners.

[Fish]

I can’t wait until Hilgya’s moment of cleansing self-sacrifice and we never have to argue about this topic again.

[Peelee]

Nor could anyone else in the Church of Thor, in fact. Heck, one could argue this was the most efficient way of ensuring that Durkon would be able to fix his mom's arm, by giving him the opportunity to gain levels in an adventuring setting.

Is there a pithy quote about consequences counting for more than intentions? There must be. Sort of like "close only counts in horseshoes and hand granades".

Grey Wolf

"My actions are justified because they produce a better outcome than any other action in this particular case,. It's a basic philosophy, act utilitarianism, Jeremy Bentham." - Dr. Jack Griffin, Ph.D

In making sure I had that quote right, I actually found this pretty cool mashup, if you're a fan of The Good Place and AP Bio (both of which I highly recommend if you haven't seen them).

If I were ever to sig anything, it would probably be this.

Meanwhile, I want to sig this. Imean, I won't, but the joke is ripe.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I can’t wait until Hilgya’s moment of cleansing self-sacrifice and we never have to argue about this topic again.

[sarcasm]Yes, because experience tells us that once Miko was dead, all arguing over her ceased.[/sarcasm]

Grey Wolf

[KorvinStarmast]

Which poses the question: why did no one in the Church of Thor, after yanking her son away from her by exiling him that way, ever try to make some amends by doing these free gestures?

One reason could be that she didn't ask for their help.

*commences shipping*

Hmm, not seeing Sigdi coupling up again, given how she has a close friend who she keeps on rebuffing.

Pretty much definitionally, adventures do not happen at home. The fact that there were no clerics in Firmament who could cast Regenerate would tend to confirm that staying at home does not give you that kind of power.

Yes; V makes some remarks about this in OoTPCs, IIRC.

I can’t wait until Hilgya’s moment of cleansing self-sacrifice and we never have to argue about this topic again.

I suspect that will be a long wait.

[Ironsmith]

Yes, because experience tells us that once Miko was dead, all arguing over her ceased.[/sarcasm]

Grey Wolf

"B-but she didn't need to make a sacrifice! Everyone should have been grovelling at her feet for affafagagadgagdzdgga-"