OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread

[Ironsmith]

I much prefer the platonic version of shipping anyway. (I unashamedly call this "Friend Shipping") The idea that two characters would be really good friends, should they meet. Infinitely better than romantic shipping, in that no one has to get their knickers in a twist about other people's ships. A character can have as many friends as they want, but only poly characters get to say that about romantic partners.

I think Sigdi and O-Chul would get along wonderfully.

Yes, that is absolutely entirely what I meant and I am most certainly not a gentrophile.

In all seriousness, though, yeah, they'd definitely get along swimmingly. Shared military background, alignment, philosophies, and sheer badassery... I bet Sigdi's probably the only monoclass fighter who could give the guy a run for his money in a paladin-off.

[Peelee]

Ooh, I love A.P. Bio. Although it should really be The Heather Show.

All the kids are awesome, but Heather is definitely the breakout star. Now stop writing, I'm not teaching you this!

[Sir_Norbert]

I'd actually agree with The_Weirdo on how "adultery" and "abandonment" of Ivan aren't things Hilgya needs to apologize for, and I think the narrative would agree on that.

Sure. But look back at Fish's post that Weirdo is responding to. It's on the top of the previous page.

"I predict that" does not mean "I think she should". Weirdo's entire argument has been -- as usual -- based on lying about what other people said.

If Hilgya were to die, and were to have a brief time knowing she is about to die to reflect on her own life, it's a reasonable prediction that she would judge herself by the standards of her own culture, not having access to ours.

[Fish]

I'd actually agree with The_Weirdo on how "adultery" and "abandonment" of Ivan aren't things Hilgya needs to apologize for, and I think the narrative would agree on that.

In no way did I imply, hint, suggest, conclude, aver, declaim, or declare that she or anyone else “needs” to apologize for any or all of the things in the list I gave.

I think it would be funny if she did sincerely apologize for those things, then die in some obvious and nigh-irrevocable way, precisely because it would make The Weirdo frantic with the need to absolve and defend her.

“Need?” No.

[The_Weirdo]

If Hilgya were to die, and were to have a brief time knowing she is about to die to reflect on her own life, it's a reasonable prediction that she would judge herself by the standards of her own culture, not having access to ours.

Hahahano.

Chaotics, whether Good, Evil or Neutral, don't judge themselves by the standards of any culture. They judge themselves by their own standards.

[Skull the Troll]

Then either the head Cleric must answer for that or the CoT itself, as an institution.

Things must be made fair to the oppressed.

The head cleric that did it is dead. The current head cleric has no knowledge of it. Who do you want to punish?

[The_Weirdo]

The head cleric that did it is dead. The current head cleric has no knowledge of it. Who do you want to punish?

Institutions answer for wrongs done in their name all the time.

[Resileaf]

This is Fish arguing she was wrong to have sexual intercourse with other people but Ivan and for leaving Ivan, even peacefully, in the first place.

Do remember that she only left peacefully because she failed to kill him violently.

[Particle_Man]

Out of curiosity, why? If I had to guess, I'd say because of that whole "bury your emotions" thing, but that seems a little flimsy.

I believe that was it. Of course, wayyyy back then, there was no context to explain the advice that Durkon was given before embarking on his adventuring career, and which he applied shortly after the conception of Kudzu. A lesson to us all about the importance of trying to understand the context behind apparently strange words and actions.

[The_Weirdo]

Do remember that she only left peacefully because she failed to kill him violently.

Even an uncharitable reading of that would have her apologize for the attempts to kill, not for leaving.

Which would be a good idea, except for the fact that your actions have consequences that affect other people!

Which doesn't mean one should let their culture, rather than their consciousness, judge what was good or bad.

[Fyraltari]

Institutions answer for wrongs done in their name all the time.

Which isn't what happened.

[Skull the Troll]

She should not apologize for adultery or abandonment from a marriage she was coerced into. That is an absolute truth. And it is not hyperbole: Fish claimed she should apologize for adultery and abandonment.

Why?

Her entire clan should, between one shift at the mines and another, apologize to her.

Its not an absolute truth. Fish didn't claim any moral superiority, nor did he even say that she should apologize, just that he hoped/predicted that it would happen (along with a huge 4th wall break) presumably so we can hear your head explode. Hilgya isn't evil because she bailed. Shes evil because she chose revenge and used crime to fight an unjust law. I might think that everyone deserves healthcare, but I cant blow up an insulin factory because I think that.

[The_Weirdo]

Its not an absolute truth. Fish didn't claim any moral superiority, nor did he even say that she should apologize, just that he hoped/predicted that it would happen (along with a huge 4th wall break) presumably so we can hear your head explode. Hilgya isn't evil because she bailed. Shes evil because she chose revenge and used crime to fight an unjust law. I might think that everyone deserves healthcare, but I cant blow up an insulin factory because I think that.

Using crime to fight an unjust law is Chaotic, not Evil. And her clan deserved what it got. She was stealing back what was taken from her.

[Dion]

Using crime to fight an unjust law is Chaotic, not Evil. And her clan deserved what it got.

Using chaos to fight injustice is chaotic.

Using evil to fight injustice is evil.

Hilgya uses both evil and chaos to fight injustice because Hilgya is chaotic evil.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

And her clan deserved what it got.

[sarcasm]Especially the people forced to marry into it. And their children.[/sarcasm]

Grey Wolf

[The_Weirdo]

Using chaos to fight injustice is chaotic.

Using evil to fight injustice is evil.

Hilgya uses both evil and chaos to fight injustice because Hilgya is chaotic evil.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p...ayEvilUntoEvil

[understatement]

So people who had no idea of the marriage that had transpired did deserve to be bankrupted or punished.

[The_Weirdo]

So people who had no idea of the marriage that had transpired did deserve to be bankrupted or punished.

They can take it up with the people that did the marrying off. They are the ones that set that sequence of events in motion. Would she have bankrupted her clan if they hadn't married her off?

Right, but what is culture if not the consciousness of individuals? What is a society if not the individuals that comprise it?

It's way more complicated than that. The whole is greater - for good or bad - than the sum of its parts.

[MReav]

I hope Hilgya gets fatally shot in the face by Ivan.

Maybe he's under the sway of the vampires when he does it since I doubt he'd do it of his own free will.

[Rrmcklin]

In no way did I imply, hint, suggest, conclude, aver, declaim, or declare that she or anyone else “needs” to apologize for any or all of the things in the list I gave.

I think it would be funny if she did sincerely apologize for those things, then die in some obvious and nigh-irrevocable way, precisely because it would make The Weirdo frantic with the need to absolve and defend her.

“Need?” No.

My mistake then.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Mreav, I wouldn't want Ivan to have to go through all that. He'd feel guilty, whether or not it was of his own free will. And it would probably count as an honorable death, which, if you truly despise Hilgya, you'd probably want her to not have. Besides, it would leave Kudzu outside of the "being honorably dead" club where all the cool kids are. Why would you leave poor Kudzu in the stupid "being alive" club where the snarl can get his soul or he could die dishonorably or could grow up to be rude to people.

I mean, who even is in the "being alive" club? Jirix, I guess. And, um, Redcloak. Man, feels like forever since we last saw those guys. I guess also Hinjo and Goblin Dan. And everybody in the current page. Oooh, the current page! We should probably get back around to talking about that at some point.

[Rogar Demonblud]

The head cleric that did it is dead. The current head cleric has no knowledge of it. Who do you want to punish?

Given Weirdo's MO, everyone in existence other than his preferred mass murderer 'victim'.

Really, people, we know how it goes by now. Report any of Weirdo's posts that you think break the Forum rules, and put him on your Ignore List if you can't not feed the troll.

[The_Weirdo]

Mreav, I wouldn't want Ivan to have to go through all that. He'd feel guilty, whether or not it was of his own free will. And it would probably count as an honorable death, which, if you truly despise Hilgya, you'd probably want her to not have. Besides, it would leave Kudzu outside of the "being honorably dead" club where all the cool kids are. Why would you leave poor Kudzu in the stupid "being alive" club where the snarl can get his soul or he could die dishonorably or could grow up to be rude to people.

If Ivan is too stupid to grasp that his wife did not want to be his wife and then ran away, he's also too stupid to grasp that he killed someone.

Given Weirdo's MO, everyone in existence other than his preferred mass murderer 'victim'.

She was a victim. And then her clan got what it deserved.

[Jasdoif]

In no way did I imply, hint, suggest, conclude, aver, declaim, or declare that she or anyone else “needs” to apologize for any or all of the things in the list I gave.

Not even for exploding a dire elephant?

[KorvinStarmast]

I'll go with the. version I heard somewhere that shipping meant 'relationships" and it could include being friends without needing to have anything sexual going on.

I should have used "pairing" or "pairing off" since coupling has a particular connotation that you allude to, and isn't what I meant to say.

[Fish]

Not even for exploding a dire elephant?

I wouldn’t take her to tusk over that kind of irrelephant detail.

[danielxcutter]

I wouldn’t take her to tusk over that kind of irrelephant detail.

*slow clapping*

[Sir_Norbert]

Is there a pithy quote about consequences counting for more than intentions? There must be. Sort of like "close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades".

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

[Pablo360]

Is the_weirdo actually unaware of the fact that background characters have the same moral standing as characters who have received focu, or can they not conceptualize the idea that any other member of Hilgya's clan could have been victimized in the same way as she?

[Resileaf]

Is the_weirdo actually unaware of the fact that background characters have the same moral standing as characters who have received focu, or can they not conceptualize the idea that any other member of Hilgya's clan could have been victimized in the same way as she?

He knows, but he also said that it was up to those other victimized people to get over it, and whoever is victimized by Hilgya's actions deserves it on account of being related to someone who victimized her, whether they had responsibility in it or not.