OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread

[Jannoire]

That slot can be used for a Holy Word, which would land hard on the vampires.
They just need to find a way to protect Belkar and V.

Hitting Belkar will actually improve the chances of success, since he can't hear commands from the vampires... Or can domination orders be made telepathically?

Does V need protection? I thought, it only works on evil characters... So, neutral characters should be fine...

And they probably need to protect Hilgya from Holy Word...

[AstralFire]

Hitting Belkar will actually improve the chances of success, since he can't hear commands from the vampires... Or can domination orders be made telepathically?

Does V need protection? I thought, it only works on evil characters... So, neutral characters should be fine...

And they probably need to protect Hilgya from Holy Word...

Reduced effect on neutral, neutrals aren't immune.

[Deathhappens]

It's...

It's beautiful.

Guess who brought backup this time, team Evil!

[Quebbster]

Hitting Belkar will actually improve the chances of success, since he can't hear commands from the vampires... Or can domination orders be made telepathically?

Does V need protection? I thought, it only works on evil characters... So, neutral characters should be fine...

And they probably need to protect Hilgya from Holy Word...

That joke's been done, and vampire domination does not rely on verbal commands, at least not for Belkar.

[woweedd]

Yes, well, Keltest decided, again, to pretend like what they did to Hilgya wasn't a major crime, so I'm pulling out all stops.

You were arguing that long before Keltest showed up and, even if you didn’t, spite is a terrible emotion to base a theory of justice on.

[Kish]

Hitting Belkar will actually improve the chances of success, since he can't hear commands from the vampires... Or can domination orders be made telepathically?

Does V need protection? I thought, it only works on evil characters... So, neutral characters should be fine...

It works on nongood characters. Remember what it did to the Lawful Neutral Kilkil?

And they probably need to protect Hilgya from Holy Word...

Not if she's higher level than Durkon.

You were arguing that long before Keltest showed up and, even if you didn’t, spite is a terrible emotion to base a theory of justice on.

The_Weirdo has apparently given up any semblance of caring that he's the worst thing that ever happened to the forum's general opinion of Hilgya in favor of simply indulging his own rage that anyone ever told him that mass murder is not an appropriate response to being victimized.

[KorvinStarmast]

That’s ridiculous in multiple dimensions. It’s recursively ridiculous. It’s fractally ridiculous. What are you trying to achieve by making this claim?

Breaking up the boredom that comes from living under a bridge, perhaps?

His typical MO is to build a straw man the size of an aircraft carrier and launch his ad hominem airships at every enemy in range.

*note to self- in my next campaign, airships launching from an aircraft carrier need to happen*

A normal person does not live out their life in a forced marriage. They do what they need to get out of it.

Apparently, many generations of dwarfs in OoTS verse, as well as about 6000 years of human history in a variety of cultures, disagree with you. I thus wonder at the grounds for your assertion. Where is the absolutist example coming from? (Aside: due to my own views on marriage, had our family tried to influence my sister into an arranged marriage I'd have taken her side and fought them on it. But of course, they didn't).

To be fair, the way modern firms are structured the CEO might very well be one of a bare handful of employees. The janitors are certainly employed by a subcontractor, and are owed no duties by the principal company.

Not with certainty. Some companies still have their internal janitorial staff, but I've also seen plenty of what you describe.

Sees Hilgya defense front V25.0, goes back to lurking

We thank you for you dropping in, please come back soon!

Per the text, Ivan was a cruel man who kept harassing her with incessant demands. Per the images, he was a devoted husband who loved his wife dearly. What Hilgya says is not necessarily what really happened.

The signals on that were pretty blatant from the author. One wonders at how those signals were missed.

You must either really, really hate Hilgya or really, really love forced marriages.

Poisoning the well noted.

The crossbow at her wedding that forced her to be married to Ivan, even on paper, is enough for her clan to deserve not only destitution, but also death and Hel.

Scorched earth, eh? Chivington would heartily approve of your approach. But why not just nuke them from orbit? It's the only way to be sure.

I know I've called your mentality re: Hilgya a school shooter's mentality before, but this is more genocidal than that.

Go big, or go home.

[Spanish_Paladin]

Hilgya's marriage again???... Sweet merciful Jesus.. 😳

[KorvinStarmast]

Hilgya's marriage again???... Sweet merciful Jesus.. 😳

It's the book six version of Miko. The gift that keeps on giving.

[zimmerwald1915]

It's the book six version of Miko. The gift that keeps on giving.

I was under the impression that Miko stirred everyone's passions. Hilgya is The_Weirdo's special hobbyhorse, and the rest of the forum just piles on whenever he throws out bait.

[Oxenstierna]

There I was wondering if there was a clever way they could get into the meeting. Guess ‘bum-rush’ the place took me a bit by surprise ;) Let’s hope it doesn’t all go Leeroy Jenkins...

[danielxcutter]

Not if she's higher level than Durkon.

Not entirely correct; Durkon has the Good domain, which increases the CL of all [Good] spells by one, so Hilgya would need at least two HD more than Durkon does for her to not be affected at all.

[The_Weirdo]

Keltest claimed months ago Hilgya wasn't a victim because she must have done something.
When that didn't take, Keltest came here, claiming Hilgya was only forced to sit through a ceremony.

Marrying someone off by force is horrible. There's no two ways about that. And yet Keltest says otherwise, by first acting like Hilgya "must have done something" and then acting like it was only "sitting through a ceremony".

So yes: if I'm going to be forced to shout the obvious at walls again, death and Hel to Hilgya's entire clan (minus her and Kudzu, of course).

The_Weirdo has apparently given up any semblance of caring that he's the worst thing that ever happened to the forum's general opinion of Hilgya in favor of simply indulging his own rage that anyone ever told him that mass murder is not an appropriate response to being victimized.

Get on with the program. Keltest, at this point, is arguing that they only forced Hilgya to "sit through a ceremony". This stopped being about whether it was okay to bankrupt or whether it would be okay to kill those sexual traffickers quite a few pages ago.

[KorvinStarmast]

There I was wondering if there was a clever way they could get into the meeting. Guess ‘bum-rush’ the place took me a bit by surprise ;) Let’s hope it doesn’t all go Leeroy Jenkins...

Sometimes, a good plan executed now is better than a perfect plan executed later. (Paraphrase of General George S. Patton)

Keltest claimed months ago Hilgya wasn't a victim because she must have done something.

If you say so ... wait, do you realize that you have a small credibility problem in this flavor of discourse?
So - link or it never happened.
How about we stick to the current discussion?

[Spanish_Paladin]

Keltest claimed months ago Hilgya wasn't a victim because she must have done something.
When that didn't take, Keltest came here, claiming Hilgya was only forced to sit through a ceremony.

Marrying someone off by force is horrible. There's no two ways about that. And yet Keltest says otherwise, by first acting like Hilgya "must have done something" and then acting like it was only "sitting through a ceremony".

So yes: if I'm going to be forced to shout the obvious at walls again, death and Hel to Hilgya's entire clan (minus her and Kudzu, of course).

What you don't get is that everyone agrees that forced marriage is horrible but not a justification for murder. Your insistence is only damaging your own position and making people dislike a character that otherwise is interesting and even compelling.

Of course you are free to continue your endless struggle, but it is becoming increasingly tedious.

[The_Weirdo]

Sometimes, a good plan executed now is better than a perfect plan executed later. (Paraphrase of General George S. Patton) If you say so ... wait, do you realize that you have a small credibility problem in this flavor of discourse?
So - link or it never happened.
How about we stick to the current discussion?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...&postcount=895

and

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...&postcount=437

What you don't get is that everyone agrees that forced marriage is horrible but not a justification for murder. Your insistence is only damaging your own position and making people dislike a character that otherwise is interesting and even compelling.

Of course you are free to continue your endless struggle, but it is becoming increasingly tedious.

No. Not everyone agrees that forced marriage is horrible. And not everyone agrees that blamng the victim is wrong either. That's the entire point: Keltest, among others, does not, and there are links just above to that effect.

[zimmerwald1915]

What you don't get is that everyone agrees that forced marriage is horrible but not a justification for murder.

A forced marriage and the circumstances flowing therefrom can be, but is not necessarily, justification or excuse for a killing. By definition, nothing excuses or justifies murder - a justified or excusable killing is not murder.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...&postcount=895

and

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...&postcount=437

Neither of those prove that "Keltest claimed months ago Hilgya wasn't a victim because she must have done something". The closest thing is a hypothetical. I suspect that you simply can't comprehend the idea of a hypothetical, but for the real world at large, hypotheticals are not claims.

Grey Wolf

[The_Weirdo]

Neither of those prove that "Keltest claimed months ago Hilgya wasn't a victim because she must have done something". The closest thing is a hypothetical. I suspect that you simply can't comprehend the idea of a hypothetical, but for the real world at large, hypotheticals are not claims.

Grey Wolf

How is "She was only forced to sit through a ceremony" not pretending forcing someone to marry someone else at crossbow point isn't seriously evil?

[Spanish_Paladin]

A forced marriage and the circumstances flowing therefrom can be, but is not necessarily, justification or excuse for a killing. By definition, nothing excuses or justifies murder - a justified or excusable killing is not murder.

What Hilgya tried to do with Ivan was murder. The only excusable killing that i know is self defense (not the case), but i am not a law expert.

[The Aboleth]

And not everyone agrees that blamng the victim is wrong either.

That's rich coming from you. Your whole premise is "If they didn't want to be murdered (or bankrupted, or whatever), they shouldn't have done what they did!" That's the epitome of victim-blaming!

What you refuse to acknowledge is that people can be perpetrators of one bad act and victims of another. Doing something bad doesn't mean you can't later be victimized.

And before you take part or all of this as some sort of defense of forced marriage, let me be clear: I am NOT defending forced marriage or defending Hilgya's clan's decision to marry her off at crossbow point. I am simply stating that bad acts do not automatically render someone incapable of also being victimized themselves.

[zimmerwald1915]

What Hilgya tried to do with Ivan was murder. The only excusable killing that i know is self defense (not the case), but i am not a law expert.

And now we've moved from an abstract, universal principle (forced marriage cannot justify homicide) to the specific circumstances of Hilgya's case. Where you are of course correct - that she was at no point (after the wedding) at imminent or even anything more than hypothetical risk of bodily harm.

Of course, this is merely the modern law of self-defense. One could imagine a regime where hypothetical risk of bodily harm or gender-based violence is a justification for killing - it depends on how much relative value you place on sparing people gender-based violence versus preserving life, and given the demographics of who tends to perpetuate and be the victim of gender-based violence, how much you value men and women.

[The_Weirdo]

And before you take part or all of this as some sort of defense of forced marriage, let me be clear: I am NOT defending forced marriage or defending Hilgya's clan's decision to marry her off at crossbow point. I am simply stating that bad acts do not automatically render someone incapable of also being victimized themselves.

You are not.

Keltest clearly is, based on the plethora of things he's said to excuse what they did to her.

[Keltest]

How is "She was only forced to sit through a ceremony" not pretending forcing someone to marry someone else at crossbow point isn't seriously evil?

This may shock and appall you to lean, but not all crimes are created equal. Its possible to do a bad thing without invoking flaming retribution and death as an appropriate response. Hilgya was humiliated and threatened, but that's as far as it went.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

How is "She was only forced to sit through a ceremony" not pretending forcing someone to marry someone else at crossbow point isn't seriously evil?

How is that in any way related to your assertion that "Keltest claimed months ago Hilgya wasn't a victim because she must have done something"?

Grey Wolf

[The Aboleth]

You are not.

Keltest clearly is, based on the plethora of things he's said to excuse what they did to her.

No response to anything else I said in that post?

Of course not, because the rest of it is calling out your hypocrisy.

[The_Weirdo]

This may shock and appall you to lean, but not all crimes are created equal. Its possible to do a bad thing without invoking flaming retribution and death as an appropriate response. Hilgya was humiliated and threatened, but that's as far as it went.

No. She was also forced to flee her homeland, or else they'd at the very least force her back into living with Ivan. She was also forced to "officially" be married, even though that marriage was a complete and utter evil sham.

Both of those things are horrible evils that you are intent on whitewashing, and I will not allow you to.

How is that in any way related to your assertion that "Keltest claimed months ago Hilgya wasn't a victim because she must have done something"?

Grey Wolf

I claimed two things. One is that Keltest kept coming up with "Oh, but what if" scenarios that would justify the forced marriage. There's a link to that effect. The other is that Keltest argued that she was only forced to sit through a ceremony. There's a link to that effect.

Death and Hel to Hilgya's entire clan, minus her and Kudzu.

[zimmerwald1915]

This may shock and appall you to lean, but not all crimes are created equal.

It is obvious from observing the world that some crimes are considered more severe than others. It is also obvious that the graduation of crimes is not universal, but varies from society to society based on what they value. It may be self-evident to you that homicide is a more severe wrong than rape or hypothetical rape. But it is not in fact self-evident.

[Keltest]

No. She was also forced to flee her homeland, or else they'd at the very least force her back into living with Ivan. She was also forced to "officially" be married, even though that marriage was a complete and utter evil sham.

Both of those things are horrible evils that you are intent on whitewashing, and I will not allow you to.

Death and Hel to Hilgya's entire clan, minus her and Kudzu.

She CHOSE to flee her homeland. She has suffered no consequences for leaving or returning, and indeed even says herself that what she did was not a good response to her situation. Indeed, given her professed hatred of her homeland and people at the time, i'd say she got the better deal.

[zimmerwald1915]

Indeed, given her professed hatred of her homeland and people at the time, i'd say she got the better deal.

Your consequentialism is showing.