OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I claimed two things. One is that Keltest kept coming up with "Oh, but what if" scenarios that would justify the forced marriage.

No you didn't. You asserted:

Keltest claimed months ago Hilgya wasn't a victim because she must have done something.

(emphasis yours)

Neither link in any way supports said assertion. That you are no backpedaling and admitting that it was a hypothetical doesn't diminish the original assertion.

Grey Wolf

[The_Weirdo]

She CHOSE to flee her homeland. She has suffered no consequences for leaving or returning, and indeed even says herself that what she did was not a good response to her situation.

That you're pretending to miss the obvious just because it is not outright spelled out in imagery in order to try and strengthen your position somehow is just sad. What do you think happens to the vast majority of women that leave the houses they were forced into by their family at crossbow point and do not flee? What makes you think that it would be different for then-commoner Hilgya?

And her self-criticism was of her attempts on Ivan's life, not of anything else.

Death and Hel to Hilgya's clan, minus her and Kudzu.

[Keltest]

That you're pretending to miss the obvious just because it is not outright spelled out in imagery in order to try and strengthen your position somehow is just sad. What do you think happens to the vast majority of women that leave the houses they were forced into by their family at crossbow point? What makes you think that it would be different for then-commoner Hilgya?

And her self-criticism was of her attempts on Ivan's life, not of anything else.

Death and Hel to Hilgya's clan, minus her and Kudzu.

We have word of god that you are explicitly wrong here. Also, if you look at Ivan and think "rapist", you are delusional.

[zimmerwald1915]

We have word of god that you are explicitly wrong here. Also, if you look at Ivan and think "rapist", you are delusional.

Rapists can look like anything. It's only due to the Word of God that we know Ivan is not in fact a rapist. Prior to that Word of God, taking into account the totality of the circumstances, it was more likely than not that he was.

[The_Weirdo]

We have word of god that you are explicitly wrong here. Also, if you look at Ivan and think "rapist", you are delusional.

Link it, then. Give me a link to the effect that Hilgya's family would not go after her as a commoner. Give me a link to the effect that Hilgya merely "chose" to flee her homeland and there was no risk for her at the time, from the people that married her off at crossbow point.

[Keltest]

Link it, then. Give me a link to the effect that Hilgya's family would not go after her as a commoner. Give me a link to the effect that Hilgya merely "chose" to flee her homeland and there was no risk for her at the time, from the people that married her off at crossbow point.

Remember the part where she said she just up and left?

So I just gave up and ran away from all my responsibilities to my clan and abandoned my marriage.

[The_Weirdo]

Remember the part where she said she just up and left?

She said she ran away.

She didn't walk away. She ran. As one does from a threat.

Thanks for proving my point for me.

[Keltest]

She said she ran away.

She didn't walk away. She ran. As one does from a threat.

Thanks for proving my point for me.

That requires such an absurdly twisted reading of this statement I refuse to believe you legitimately believe that.

[The_Weirdo]

That requires such an absurdly twisted reading of this statement I refuse to believe you legitimately believe that.

Oh, so NOW inference and deduction matter? And NOW Hilgya's words should be taken as the absolute truth?

When she talked about the locks and chains, she was a liar. But when she says she abandoned and ran away from the sexual traffickers, she's not only being fully truthful, there is nothing else to be inferred from her statement as well?

[Keltest]

Oh, so NOW inference and deduction matter?

Only when theyre based on facts and evidence and not just imaginary claims such as the ones you've been putting forth.

[martianmister]

Spoiler

Show

So, I guess Rich seen Avengers Endgame after all?

[zimmerwald1915]

Spoiler

Show

So, I guess Rich seen Avengers Endgame after all?

Many, many works use the "cavalry arrives" trope.

[The_Weirdo]

Only when theyre based on facts and evidence and not just imaginary claims such as the ones you've been putting forth.

You kept coming up with hypotheticals why she might deserve what she went through without any need for either of those.

And what she says in no way proves that she was under no danger if she hadn't fled her homeland. No, it just does not.

[Resileaf]

Many, many works use the "cavalry arrives" trope.

Including previous Marvel movies.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Spoiler

Show

So, I guess Rich seen Avengers Endgame after all?

Hopefully, but if so, he probably thought something along the lines of “damn, they just stole my thunder”

Grey Wolf

[Spanish_Paladin]

And now we've moved from an abstract, universal principle (forced marriage cannot justify homicide) to the specific circumstances of Hilgya's case. Where you are of course correct - that she was at no point (after the wedding) at imminent or even anything more than hypothetical risk of bodily harm.

Of course, this is merely the modern law of self-defense. One could imagine a regime where hypothetical risk of bodily harm or gender-based violence is a justification for killing - it depends on how much relative value you place on sparing people gender-based violence versus preserving life, and given the demographics of who tends to perpetuate and be the victim of gender-based violence, how much you value men and women.

Of course, i am speaking from the perspective of a occidental, real life, XXI century white male human. I am aware that the question can vary if you change any of these circumstances.

It is my opinion that there is no proportion between forced marriage (again it is an horrible crime) and murder. My opinion will change if there is some degree of violence from the husband.

[zimmerwald1915]

Hopefully, but if so, he probably thought something along the lines of “damn, they just stole my thunder”

Grey Wolf

Oh, I dunno, this felt more satisfying.

[Keltest]

You kept coming up with hypotheticals why she might deserve what she went through without any need for either of those.

And what she says in no way proves that she was under no danger if she hadn't fled her homeland. No, it just does not.

You cant prove a negative. It lends support to the idea though, so if you want to claim she was in danger from leaving, you need to prove it as the one making the claim.

[The_Weirdo]

You cant prove a negative. It lends support to the idea though, so if you want to claim she was in danger from leaving, you need to prove it as the one making the claim.

How about it's what happens in absolutely every forced marriage there is, ever? Or do you think that the same complete and utter sadistic monsters that forced a woman to marry at crossbow point would simply let her leave the house they shoved her into?

[Keltest]

How about it's what happens in absolutely every forced marriage there is, ever? Or do you think that the same complete and utter sadistic monsters that forced a woman to marry at crossbow point would simply let her leave the house they shoved her into?

How about you provide some actual proof instead of unsubstantiated assertions? She says she just up and left, and weve seen no consequences to doing so, nor anybody attempting to inflict them. Indeed, Ivan wasn't even aware she was gone, so its entirely possible her family never found out or cared, if they considered the matter settled after the ceremony. Youre the one insisting it had to have happened this way, so prove it.

[The_Weirdo]

How about you provide some actual proof instead of unsubstantiated assertions? She says she just up and left, and weve seen no consequences to doing so, nor anybody attempting to inflict them. Indeed, Ivan wasn't even aware she was gone, so its entirely possible her family never found out or cared, if they considered the matter settled after the ceremony. Youre the one insisting it had to have happened this way, so prove it.

They were willing to kill her over it (remember that crossbow?). What on Earth makes you think they wouldn't be willing to kill her to get her back into the house with the moron?

They are clearly evil enough to force a woman to marry someone. Ergo, they are more than evil enough to enforce that.

[Keltest]

They were willing to kill her over it (remember that crossbow?). What on Earth makes you think they wouldn't be willing to kill her to get her back into the house with the moron?

They are clearly evil enough to force a woman to marry someone. Ergo, they are more than evil enough to enforce that.

The part where she says she just up and left, and compared it as being easier than killing her husband. That's what makes me thing that it wasn't difficult. The part where she says so. You know, facts, not assumptions and baseless assertions.

[The_Weirdo]

The part where she says she just up and left, and compared it as being easier than killing her husband. That's what makes me thing that it wasn't difficult. The part where she says so. You know, facts, not assumptions and baseless assertions.

So when she says she up and left (mind: she said NOTHING OF THE SORT) she's telling the truth and when she says there were padlocks she's lying?

[Peelee]

Sometimes, a good plan executed now is better than a perfect plan executed later. (Paraphrase of General George S. Patton)

Le meglio è l'inimico del bene. (idiom collected by Voltaire in his Dictionnaire Philosophique, ~150 years before Patton. )

[KorvinStarmast]

They were willing to kill her over it (remember that crossbow?).

Willing to threaten is for sure, if the crossbow was a real thing and not a literary allusion. We'll go wtih real so "willing to threaten" (both Hilgya and Ivan) as given.
But might they have been bluffing about the killing bit! As the possible bluff was never called, we do not know.

I honestly don't think you understand people, and political/clan alliances formed by arranged marriages. Go read up on some medieval and feudal history. The marriage being accomplished fulfills the agreement/treaty/arrangement (usually to do with land) between the two families.

I'd also suggest that you do some research into how Indian cultures (in the sub continent/south asia) handle arranged marriages. It appears that this is still happening in our day and age in some places.
See also the Royal House of Japan and Imperial China (Pre Sun Yat Sen) for the past few centuries: check out the marriage arrangements there too.
Each culture/sub culture has it own norms and mores for that, so I'd take a not too large leap here and suggest that the dwarves in OoTS land have their own particular norms and mores for such things.

What on Earth makes you think they wouldn't be willing to kill her to get her back into the house with the moron?

I'd be surprised if they did. If they killed her, the other clan (not the Firehelm clan) would be able say that they were in breach of their agreement, whatever it was (it happened off screen, eh?) that was the basis for the two clans marrying off their two kids to each other.

They are clearly evil enough to force a woman to marry someone. Ergo, they are more than evil enough to enforce that.

Perhaps true.
The details are unknown, but the 'enforcing' through killing' is unlikely, per my points above.
The idea of 'enforcing through tracking down and more or less kidnapping and bringing back' is more likely, as in that case the onther clan can't claim a breech. As the details of their norms on this have neve been on screen, we are all guessing somewhat. (Still a raw deal if you are Hilgya, so she fled since she valued her freedom more than being a part of that clan).

Yet you make assertions as though they are absolute truths. That body of assumptions and assertions that are leaps into the unknown.

It doesn't help your argument.

[zimmerwald1915]

The part where she says she just up and left, and compared it as being easier than killing her husband. That's what makes me thing that it wasn't difficult. The part where she says so. You know, facts, not assumptions and baseless assertions.

"Easier than killing Ivan" doesn't necessarily mean "effortless." One can imagine a harrowing, somewhat low-level adventure that involves Hilgya evading bounty hunters until she reached the frontier of the Dwarven Lands (that is, apparently, the surface).

You might object that any conceivable adventure is more difficult than killing Ivan, but that's a claim you'd have to prove.

[Keltest]

So when she says she up and left (mind: she said NOTHING OF THE SORT) she's telling the truth and when she says there were padlocks she's lying?

Yes. That's her MO. That's the joke. That's the whole freaking point of the scene, that her actions were cruel and pointless and stupid and wrong.

[The_Weirdo]

[Willing to threaten is for sure, if the crossbow was a real thing and not a literary allusion -- we'll go wtih real ' but might they have been bluffing! We do not know. Also, I don't think you understand people and political alliances formed by marriages. Go read up on some mediefal and feudal history. The marriage being accomplished squares the agreement/treaty/arrangement between the two families.
I'd be surprised if they did, since if they killed her, the other clan would say that they were in breach of their agreement, whatever it was, that was the basis for the two clans marrying off their two kids to each other. Perhaps; the details are unknown, but the 'enforcing' through killing is unlikely. The idea of 'enforcing through tracking down and more or less kidnapping (so that the other clan does not claim breech due to loss of a party" seems to me more likely.

You make a series of assumptions and assertions that are leaps into the unknown. It doesn't help your argument.

The. Author. Says. The. Crossbow. Is. Real.

As for the political alliances, it doesn't matter. Her clan married her off because it wanted to. And you'll notice that every single one of your assertions debunks Keltest's claim that the sexual traffickers that married her off would simply let it be.

Yes. That's her MO. That's the joke. That's the whole freaking point of the scene, that her actions were cruel and pointless and stupid and wrong.

No, the point of the scene was tht she was fleeing a bunch of sexual traffickers that married her off because they felt like it. That's how absolutely every forced marriage works; why would it be different in Hilgya's?

[Keltest]

The. Author. Says. The. Crossbow. Is. Real.

As for the political alliances, it doesn't matter. Her clan married her off because it wanted to. And you'll notice that every single one of your assertions debunks Keltest's claim that the sexual traffickers that married her off would simply let it be.



No, the point of the scene was tht she was fleeing a bunch of sexual traffickers that married her off because they felt like it. That's how absolutely every forced marriage works; why would it be different in Hilgya's?

I like how in one breath youre hiding behind word of the author, and the next your ignoring something he explicitly stated.

[The_Weirdo]

I like how in one breath youre hiding behind word of the author, and the next your ignoring something he explicitly stated.

He never stated that her running away was easy. He never stated that she could have just stayed in her homeland without being forced back into Moron's house.

He did, however, state that the Firehelm leadership was completely and utterly evil.