OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread

[Mightymosy]

Ok, that one can't discuss whatever topics in private is one thing (an odd choice, but whatever).

But that "private" messages can just be read by Mods is *really* a little more than awkward I must say.

[The_Weirdo]

That's not a useful distinction. Does Jabba count? He suffers under the rule of the Empire as much as the rebels do. The imperials took over his planet, after all.

Jabba gets to do as he sees fit to everyone from the Empire and anyone that suffered under Jabba gets to do as they see fit to him.

What about those who belong to both? Like say, Kallus? or Mara Jade?

Depends on who they work for at the time.

To be sure, I don't know much about Star Wars.

[Keltest]

Jabba gets to do as he sees fit to everyone from the Empire and anyone that suffered under Jabba gets to do as they see fit to him.



Depends on who they work for at the time.

To be sure, I don't know much about Star Wars.

For context, Jabba is a gangster who practices slavery and feeds people to his pet monster, among other horrible things. Within his sphere, he is at least as bad as the Empire.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Ok, that one can't discuss whatever topics in private is one thing (an odd choice, but whatever).

But that "private" messages can just be read by Mods is *really* a little more than awkward I must say.

All posts, PMs and reports in this forum end up in the same DB. Of course they can read them, if they want. That's what mod powers means.

None of which is particularly relevant, since the reason I won't send you a PM is because I won't knowingly break the rules, even if I don't expect to be caught.

Grey Wolf

[Kish]

What about those who belong to both? Like say, Kallus? or Mara Jade?

I'm wondering where Weirdo stands on the Dominion. They're literally and explicitly trying to conquer the galaxy because they were previously hunted, and what they control can't hurt them.

(There's essentially no chance of him having an answer that I would respect or consider any better than the other extreme, because such an answer would require an understanding of complexity he has seemingly taken pride in screaming that he does not possess. But I'm idly curious which of the two extreme positions he's capable of holding is the one he comes down on there. I'm guessing he tosses them in with the Cardassians, because he didn't see the Founders be victimized on-camera.)

[The_Weirdo]

For context, Jabba is a gangster who practices slavery and feeds people to his pet monster, among other horrible things. Within his sphere, he is at least as bad as the Empire.

Sure. And, as I said, he gets to do as he sees fit to the Empire. And everyone under his yolk gets to do as they see fit to him and his.

I'm wondering where Weirdo stands on the Dominion. They're literally and explicitly trying to conquer the galaxy because they were previously hunted, and what they control can't hurt them.

(There's essentially no chance of him having an answer that I would respect or consider any better than the other extreme, because such an answer would require an understanding of complexity he has seemingly taken pride in screaming that he does not possess. But I'm idly curious which of the two extreme positions he's capable of holding is the one he comes down on there. I'm guessing he tosses them in with the Cardassians, because he didn't see the Founders be victimized on-camera.)

The humans didn't victimize the Founders, so the Founders are fair game. Besides, they're imperialists. All empires - say, in fiction - are evil.

[Keltest]

Sure. And, as I said, he gets to do as he sees fit to the Empire. And everyone under his yolk gets to do as they see fit to him and his.

Why does he suddenly gain protection from the empire? Are they not allowed to rescue people from being fed to monsters? Do the bad things he does suddenly become less bad because theyre against a Designated Target?

[Mightymosy]

All posts, PMs and reports in this forum end up in the same DB. Of course they can read them, if they want. That's what mod powers means.

None of which is particularly relevant, since the reason I won't send you a PM is because I won't knowingly break the rules, even if I don't expect to be caught.

Grey Wolf

Oh, I don't ask or want you to circumvent forum rules.
If it's forbidden, it is sadly forbidden and I won't get any wise, unfortunately.

It just weirds me out that private messages are not private. I find that disturbing.
I thought databases had encryptions so that mods/admins could delete stuff or for example *reset* passwords, but not, for example, *read* those passwords.

[The_Weirdo]

Why does he suddenly gain protection from the empire? Are they not allowed to rescue people from being fed to monsters? Do the bad things he does suddenly become less bad because theyre against a Designated Target?

Oppressors are not morally allowed to do anything. Turns out that, when you attack entire worlds, you lose the right to complain when your people get fed to monsters.

[Keltest]

Oppressors are not morally allowed to do anything. Turns out that, when you attack entire worlds, you lose the right to complain when your people get fed to monsters.

But you just said Jabba could do whatever he wanted to the Empire. But he lost the right to complain when somebody comes in and stops him from doing what he wants.

Which is it?

[The_Weirdo]

But you just said Jabba could do whatever he wanted to the Empire. But he lost the right to complain when somebody comes in and stops him from doing what he wants.

Which is it?

Basically, whatever harm befalls the Empire coming from whatever source couldn't happen to better people.

Whatever harm befalls Jabba coming from the Rebels is good; coming from the Empire, it's bad.

Whatever harm befalls the Rebels is bad.

[Keltest]

Basically, whatever harm befalls the Empire coming from whatever source couldn't happen to better people.

Whatever harm befalls Jabba coming from the Rebels is good; coming from the Empire, it's bad.

Whatever harm befalls the Rebels is bad.

But why is it bad coming from the Empire? He's an oppressor; by your own measure, he needs to be stopped by any means necessary.

[The_Weirdo]

But why is it bad coming from the Empire? He's an oppressor; by your own measure, he needs to be stopped by any means necessary.

The Empire is a bigger one - not to mention a Lawful one.

[Keltest]

The Empire is a bigger one - not to mention a Lawful one.

So? "by any means necessary" doesn't mean "unless I don't like the help."

[hamishspence]

The humans didn't victimize the Founders, so the Founders are fair game.

Section 31 victimised the Founders before the war even started:

Spoiler

Show

by infecting Odo early in Season 4, with the intention of Odo infecting the Founders.

[The_Weirdo]

So? "by any means necessary" doesn't mean "unless I don't like the help."

Eh, sure. Then the two can destroy one another and the only truly decent people around are the rebels. But Jabba is still morally superior to the Empire.

[hamishspence]

He might be morally superior to Palpatine, but not to almost anyone else in the movies.

I think it's safe to say that Piett or Jerjerrod, are better people than Jabba.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Oh, I don't ask or want you to circumvent forum rules.
If it's forbidden, it is sadly forbidden and I won't get any wise, unfortunately.

It just weirds me out that private messages are not private. I find that disturbing.
I thought databases had encryptions so that mods/admins could delete stuff or for example *reset* passwords, but not, for example, *read* those passwords.

Passwords are (hopefully) both encrypted and salted. But those operations are horrendouly expensive computationally. Worth it for a string of between 6 and, say, a couple hundred characters, and a volume of 1/member. Completely unfeasible for PMs that could be tens of thousands of characters long, and literally hundreds per user.

Also, the mods have said that if asked to investigate a PM, they do request permission from the person asking before they read the PMs (they do need to verify the PM exists). So while they have the power, the mods here are choosing to be mindful of your privacy - they have the power, and choose not to use it.

ETA: also, you should be aware that the password encryption is non-reversible. Once encrypted, nothing can un-encrypt it. That's why passwords can't be sent back to you and have to be reset if you forget. Very secure, but not terribly useful to anything you'd want to be able to read after you've first created it.

Grey Wolf

[The_Weirdo]

He might be morally superior to Palpatine, but not to almost anyone else in the movies.

I think it's safe to say that Piett or Jerjerrod, are better people than Jabba.

Not if they work for the Empire, they aren't.

[hamishspence]

Jabba's oppression of his slaves is as brutal as the Empire's oppression of it's slaves - it is just on a smaller scale.

[The_Weirdo]

Jabba's oppression of his slaves is as brutal as the Empire's oppression of it's slaves - it is just on a smaller scale.

Sure. But the Empire is evil on a much larger scale. It, like all imperialistic entities, has oppression at its core.

At least Jabba's goal is only profit, not to impose that kind of order.

[Resileaf]

Not if they work for the Empire, they aren't.

Those janitors on the Death Star definitely deserved what was coming to them when it exploded.

[The_Weirdo]

Those janitors on the Death Star definitely deserved what was coming to them when it exploded.

Well, they worked for the Empire. The Empire is an empire, is evil and is oppresive. So, yeah, I'm not shedding tears for these guys.

[Resileaf]

Well, they worked for the Empire. The Empire is an empire, is evil and is oppresive. So, yeah, I'm not shedding tears for these guys.

And so did those conscripted construction worker on the second Death Star!

[The_Weirdo]

And so did those conscripted construction worker on the second Death Star!

If you're conscripted, you should sabotage your own side.

[hamishspence]

You don't need to "shed tears" to acknowledge that there's a scale, and the ordinary people who work for the Empire and who don't know just how evil it is - are better people than the Jabbas of that universe.

[The_Weirdo]

You don't need to "shed tears" to acknowledge that there's a scale, and the ordinary people who work for the Empire and who don't know just how evil it is - are better people than the Jabbas of that universe.

Doesn't mean killing those people is any wronger than killing the Jabbas. Or the Hutts, as I recall.

Empires are evil and oppressive. So they must be destroyed.

[Resileaf]

If you're conscripted, you should sabotage your own side.

Yeah, how dare they don't throw away their lives and those of their families and coworkers for the glory of the Resistance!

[The_Weirdo]

Yeah, how dare they don't throw away their lives and those of their families and coworkers for the glory of the Resistance!

Well, if they don't, they don't get to complain that they get killed by the right side of history.

[hamishspence]

Doesn't mean killing those people is any wronger than killing the Jabbas.

Why do you think Saw Gerrara in Rogue One is considered a renegade by the rest of the Rebellion? Because he kills "ordinary Imperial civilians".

What makes the Rebels sympathetic is that they don't slaughter all Imperials they come across "for being Imperial".