OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread

[Resileaf]

Why do you think Saw Gerrara in Rogue One is considered a renegade by the rest of the Rebellion? Because he kills "ordinary Imperial civilians".

What makes the Rebels sympathetic is that they don't slaughter all Imperials they come across "for being Imperial".

Yeah, well, y'know, living under the Empire means you support the Empire, obviously. Otherwise you'd be sabotaging them every second of your life. So don't you dare complain when the righteous Rebellion blows up your workplace because you happen to live on an Imperial-run planet!

You should have blown it up yourself long ago!

[The_Weirdo]

Why do you think Saw Gerrara in Rogue One is considered a renegade by the rest of the Rebellion? Because he kills "ordinary Imperial civilians".

What makes the Rebels sympathetic is that they don't slaughter all Imperials they come across "for being Imperial".

What makes the Rebels sympathetic to me is that they did not start it. That the Empire is, by definition, oppressive and seeking to impose its order on the galaxy. Etc.

The Empire literally destroys inhabited planets.

Everyone in the Empire is a legitimate target.

[Kish]

Section 31 victimised the Founders before the war even started:

Spoiler

Show

by infecting Odo early in Season 4, with the intention of Odo infecting the Founders.

Also, humans are part of the Alpha Quadrant clan, of which the Romulans and the Cardassians attempted genocide against the Founders. The human species is as culpable as any random Firehelm.

That said, I post this only for my own amusement, as you replied exactly as I had predicted you would when I asked the question.

[D.One]

Hey, as long as we're here, do you know the Tormenta setting? If you do, you likely know my take on the minotaurs.

I don't quite like Tormenta. Who am I fooling? I detest it. I liked the magazine it was originated in, until:

1) I perceived many things they "created" was in fact just translation from foreign material, uncredited (I wouldn't have had any problem if they said: "Guys, we are translating some material here that would be hard for you to get your hands into", but saying nothing and making us think they created that is a character flaw, at least in my opinion)

2) They started to do all things Tormenta, to the point of me getting sick of it.

3) They started to use most of their space to promote the game systen they created (3D&T), which I won't call bad because to be just bad it would have to improve a million years. I liked D&T and AD&T, because they were never intended to be serious and played with themes I loved. 3D&T, however, intended to be a generic system, and it was good to absolutely nothing.

[The_Weirdo]

I don't quite like Tormenta. Who am I fooling? I detest it. I liked the magazine it was originated in, until:

1) I perceived many things they "created" was in fact just translation from foreign material, uncredited (I wouldn't have had any problem if they said: "Guys, we are translating some material here that would be hard for you to get your hands into", but saying nothing and making us think they created that is a character flaw, at least in my opinion)

2) They started to do all things Tormenta, to the point of me getting sick of it.

3) They started to use most of their space to promote the game systen they created (3D&T), which I won't call bad because to be just bad it would have to improve a million years. I liked D&T and AD&T, because they never intended to be serious and played with themes I loved. 3D&T, however, intended to be a generic system, and it was good to absolutely nothing.

Eh, things are improving on those fronts, I think.

I love Tormenta, but my main beef is them making the Minotaurs, for all they do and are, Lawful Neutral.

[Jasdoif]

Everyone in the Empire is a legitimate target.

You could still shed tears for the saboteurs, though. First they're oppressed by the Empire, then they get blown up by fellow anti-Empire people while trying to tear the Empire down from the inside.

[D.One]

Eh, things are improving on those fronts, I think.

Maybe, but the damage is done, I think. Nowadays, my RPG priorities are very far from "giving Tormenta another chance".

[rooster707]

What makes the Rebels sympathetic to me is that they did not start it. That the Empire is, by definition, oppressive and seeking to impose its order on the galaxy. Etc.

The Empire literally destroys inhabited planets.

Everyone in the Empire is a legitimate target.

Me: "Oh hey, I haven't looked at the discussion threads in a while, I should see what's going on - "

The_Weirdo: *advocating war crimes*

Me:

[The_Weirdo]

Maybe, but the damage is done, I think. Nowadays, my RPG priorities are very far from "giving Tormenta another chance".

Oh, I'm absolutely not trying to convince you to. I'm just saying. And hey, I'm not blind to the flaws either. Even besides the "The sexual slavers are Lawful Neutral" bit.

You could still shed tears for the saboteurs, though. First they're oppressed by the Empire, then they get blown up by fellow anti-Empire people while trying to tear the Empire down from the inside.

For them, yes.

Me: "Oh hey, I haven't looked at the discussion threads in a while, I should see what's going on - "

The_Weirdo: *advocating war crimes*

Me:

Well, the Empire did them first.

[Keltest]

Well, the Empire did them first.

If the problem is the empire doing war crimes, why is perpetuating them a valid solution? If that's not the problem, why is it a valid solution?

Basically, war crimes are bad. That's why they call them crimes.

[woweedd]

Oh, I'm absolutely not trying to convince you to. I'm just saying. And hey, I'm not blind to the flaws either. Even besides the "The sexual slavers are Lawful Neutral" bit.



For them, yes.



Well, the Empire did them first.

"He started it" is not actually a valid moral defence. Being a Good person means there are certain tactics you're not supposed to use, like, say, targeting civilians, even if they may be effective.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

"He started it" is not actually a valid moral defence. Being a Good person means there are certain tactics you're not supposed to use, like, say, targeting civilians, even if they may be effective.

And lets be honest, T_W is not advocating them because they are effective.

Grey Wolf

[Resileaf]

"He started it" is not actually a valid moral defence. Being a Good person means there are certain tactics you're not supposed to use, like, say, targeting civilians, even if they may be effective.

I think it's obvious that Weirdo doesn't care about being a good person.

[The_Weirdo]

If the problem is the empire doing war crimes, why is perpetuating them a valid solution? If that's not the problem, why is it a valid solution?

Basically, war crimes are bad. That's why they call them crimes.

No, you call something a crime when it's illegal - good, bad or neutral.

"He started it" is not actually a valid moral defence. Being a Good person means there are certain tactics you're not supposed to use, like, say, targeting civilians, even if they may be effective.

I'll settle for "Neutral and not oppressed by the people who did, in fact, start it, and, in starting it, caused every reaction to what they did".

[Keltest]

No, you call something a crime when it's illegal - good, bad or neutral.

And theyre illegal because theyre bad.

I'll settle for "Neutral and not oppressed by the people who did, in fact, start it, and, in starting it, caused every reaction to what they did".

Youre falling pretty far from that goal then. Neutrality is pretty definitionally incompatible with genocide.

[woweedd]

No, you call something a crime when it's illegal - good, bad or neutral.



I'll settle for "Neutral and not oppressed by the people who did, in fact, start it, and, in starting it, caused every reaction to what they did".

For a Chaotic person, you seem to have a lax understanding of free will. Like, this reasoning of “you MADE me hurt you” or, rather, “you made me hurt other people”... I understand you’ve faced trauma in the past. Surely you see what that sounds like?

[Keltest]

For a Chaotic person, you seem to have a lax understanding of free will. Like, this reasoning of “you MADE me hurt you” or, rather, “you made me hurt other people”... I understand you’ve faced trauma in the past. Surely you see what that sounds like?

As is regularly pointed out, what he believes to be a chaotic neutral paradise is in actuality a lawful evil dictatorship, usually run by hilgya or himself.

[The_Weirdo]

And theyre illegal because theyre bad.

That is a pretty naive view.

Youre falling pretty far from that goal then. Neutrality is pretty definitionally incompatible with genocide.

Well, the Empire is evil.

For a Chaotic person, you seem to have a lax understanding of free will. Like, this reasoning of “you MADE me hurt you” or, rather, “you made me hurt other people”... I understand you’ve faced trauma in the past. Surely you see what that sounds like?

Chaotic Neutrals care first and foremost about their own freedom. They will react however they deem fit in order to preserve it. That the Empire of the day failed to grasp that is its own fault.

[Ironsmith]

"He started it" is not actually a valid moral defence. Being a Good person means there are certain tactics you're not supposed to use, like, say, targeting civilians, even if they may be effective.

Plus, "he started it" lends itself way too well to relativism to actually be established as an absolute fact, never mind its validity as a moral defense.

For instance, say we have an argument between Alice and Bob...

Alice: *smacks Bob*
Bob: What the hell?!
Alice: That's for stealing my shampoo.
Bob: I did that because you stole my shampoo.
Alice: I did that because you forgot to pick mine up at the store the other day!
Bob: I didn't forget, Carl didn't have any in stock!
Carl: Don't blame me, my supplier went out of business.
Supplier: Goddamn stockholders flaked on me.
Stockholders: *clamor of excuses and buck-passing*

So who actually "started it"? Carl for not securing another supplier? Bob for not going to another store? Alice for not getting her own freaking shampoo? An unknowable class of stockholders who failed to support the supplier in its time of need? The supplier himself for unstable business practices? Whoever the stockholders decide is responsible? And does any of this justify Alice smacking Bob? (Hint: Hell no.)

[Keltest]

That is a pretty naive view.



Well, the Empire is evil.



Chaotic Neutrals care first and foremost about their own freedom. They will react however they deem fit in order to preserve it. That the Empire of the day failed to grasp that is its own fault.

Its not naïve, its just fact. A group like the Empire wont make their own tactics illegal, for obvious reasons, even if they don't want other people to use them, so they don't consider them war crimes.

Also, "do evil unto evil" is not a neutral position, its an evil position.

And finally, only Chaotic Evil cares about its own freedom to that degree. Chaotic Neutral cares about the freedoms of others as well, in the abstract, and is defined primarily by the fact that they DONT go very far out of their way to defend them, as opposed to CG which will, or CE, which wont do so at all except by accident or coincidence.

[The_Weirdo]

Snip.

Isn't it pretty straightforward in SW, though? The Empire decided to impose its order on the galaxy by force and the good guys are reacting.

[Fyraltari]

The Empire literally destroys inhabited planets.

Everyone in the Empire is a legitimate target.

Aldeeran was an imperial planet. According to you everyone on it deserved to die. Therefore the Empire did nothing wrong.

[Fyraltari]

Isn't it pretty straightforward in SW, though? The Empire decided to impose its order on the galaxy by force and the good guys are reacting.

Most of the Imperials were reacted to the war crimes of the CSI which was itself responding to the abuses and neglect of the Old Republic. Yes most of this was the Sith at work but most people in the galaxy do not know that.

[D.One]

Isn't it pretty straightforward in SW, though? The Empire decided to impose its order on the galaxy by force and the good guys are reacting.

Well, if you dig a little bit more in the (Expanded Universe) past, you may discover the Sith had suffered their own destruction and may be the real victims by your definition.

In fact, with all their enphasis on channeling their strong emotions, they are much closer to Chaotic than the heroes.

[Ironsmith]

Isn't it pretty straightforward in SW, though? The Empire decided to impose its order on the galaxy by force and the good guys are reacting.

That's one arguable view, yes, but it neglects the Prequels and background material. Anakin/Vader was manipulated by Palpatine (with strong implications that his connecting so strongly to the Dark Side made him more vulnerable to Palpatine's machinations, and he did that because of what happened to his mother), who in turn was taken in and most likely corrupted by Darth Plagueis (the Wise, but that's not a story the Jedi will tell you), and who was as successful as he was because the Republic Senate was divided and bickering amongst itself, as senates are wont to do. Given how much of the Rebellion's upper ranks are made up of ex-senators, there's an argument to be made that it was the Rebellion was ultimately responsible for the rise of the Empire... and given that Palpatine grew up in the Republic, most any hardship he may have endured growing up can be safely attributed to them, in some form or another.

[terodil]

TW's position is so untenable, illogical and downright absurd I'm surprised people are still arguing against it. It's obvious that he/she/it is not interested in discussion, but just in stirring the pot.

Must... not... bite... MUST... NOT... BITE... hnggngnngngng

[Cazero]

Ultimately, it's all Qui-gon's fault.

[Ironsmith]

TW's position is so untenable, illogical and downright absurd I'm surprised people are still arguing against it. It's obvious that he/she/it is not interested in discussion, but just in stirring the pot.

Must... not... bite... MUST... NOT... BITE... hnggngnngngng

Delusional though he may be, the guy does still spark discussion and we still get to throw out our own views on the associated events. His philosophy is so obviously wrong that it demands the immediate production of a few dozen more reasonable viewpoints, which ain't so bad in terms of discussion. You might think of his opinions as fertilizer, if that helps.

[Fyraltari]

I’m doing it out of:
40% stubbornness
30% boredom
30% bile fascination.

[hroþila]

The Empire literally destroys inhabited planets.

Everyone in the Empire is a legitimate target.

This might well be the most repugnant thing you've ever said so far.