If HP aren't meat, how do you narrate combat?

[jjordan]

I'm familiar with the refrain that HP aren't meat. But every single combat narration I've ever seen assumes that they are. I think this is because "You're definitely wearing him down" and "He's tiring, you almost slipped past his guard that time" are incredibly boring phrases. So, to reiterate the thread title: If HP aren't meat, how do you narrate combat?

[Vorpal Glaive]

"Ouch! You just lost X HP. What do you do next?"

HP is part meat, part luck, part reaction time, part armor, Et al. As a fledgling DM back in the day, if a PC took a lot of damage I would say "Whoa! The Orc slashes off your arm!!" which would drive the player berserk.

I learned not to assume how injured a PC was. That is for the player to decide, unless we're using Called Shot rules. If a PC loses all but 1 HP and wants to continue fighting as normal, that is the player's prerogative.

I stick to the numbers.

[cajbaj]

"Chips of wood spray from his shield as you slam your axe upon it."

"He gasps and recoils from the strength of your blow."

"With great strain, she manages to redirect your spear."

When they hit, use language that puts the players in a dominant position.

[Resileaf]

Depending on the severity of the wound, I narate a more or less grisly wound.
"The sword grazes your arm, giving you a slightly bleeding cut."
"The axe bites deep in your shoulder, causing your muscles to burn in exertion."
"The arrow strikes straight in one of your organs (for a crit)."

For enemies, I tend to say "He looks barely bothered" to "He's barely holding on his feet".

[Man_Over_Game]

I'm familiar with the refrain that HP aren't meat. But every single combat narration I've ever seen assumes that they are. I think this is because "You're definitely wearing him down" and "He's tiring, you almost slipped past his guard that time" are incredibly boring phrases. So, to reiterate the thread title: If HP aren't meat, how do you narrate combat?

Grazed, Nicked, Mauled, Cut, etc. Same way you'd envision a fist fight; it might be decided by one punch, but that doesn't mean it's the only one that counts.

You also leave things ambiguous, just like they do in the movies. Sometimes, the hero can take a whole sword slash down the back. Other times, a small dagger plunged into his heart is what kills him. As long as you don't mention anything penetrating, implying organ/permanent damage, it's hard to tell exactly how much damage one takes.

So if I just say "You slashed him up pretty badly with that combination", you know exactly how successful you were, yet you paint your own image of what he looks like. He's certainly not dead, and he seems like he's able to fight still, and that's all you really need to know. "Slashed him up pretty badly" could just be a single cut along the shoulder.

But if I said "Your combination lacerated his knee and his fighting arm", it'd start to make little narrative sense how he was still able to fight. By adding more detail, I'm actually limiting the imagery to those details, potentially making the scene worse.

----------

If you mean zero contact at all, you want to narrate some kind of consequence to the successful attack. This could be the enemy tripping, or gasping for air, or making a sudden exclamation. If blood and hits aren't a telltale sign of success, create another. When non-contact is involved, you can ignore what I said earlier about details and add as much as you want. Also, continue to leave the "blocking" portion ambiguous. Do not say that the enemy blocked your combination, only describe what the enemy does afterwards. For example:

"After your combination, the lizardman seems to be struggling to keep his weapon steady, visibly shaking at the end of the blade. The bloodlust in his eyes seems to be slowly transitioning into fear as he takes a defensive stance".

[Aotrs Commander]

For enemies, I tend to say "He looks barely bothered" to "He's barely holding on his feet".

This, mostly, when broadly describing NPCs, mostly.

HP is an abstraction, so I lean on that and don't always treat it the same way every everytime, I got whatever I feel is right in the moment. Sometimes it's phyiscal damage (okay, more often than not this, because I'm a bit too lazy and have been very slipping on descriptives (big party, though, so easy to slide), but am trying a bit more having been shamed into it by Lanipator's Role With Me)) and sometimes it's fatigue or whatever. Sometimes it's physical damage going down, and reduction of fatigue or new wind going up (e.g. a Crusader's vital spirit stance or something).

It is one of the few areas where I don't feel the (what some might call obessive) need for consistency.

[Zhorn]

I tend to favour describing HP as meat, but I tend to avoid describing serious wounds unless its the killing blow or a critical.
Lots to grazing, bruises, shallow cuts and gashes, if it pieces the body it's avoiding any vital organs, lots of arrows tend to hit shoulders.

I tend to view statements like "HP is not meat" as someone trying to assert a headcanon as standard.
HP doesn't have to be meat. It's not meat when you want it to not be meat, and it is meat when you want it to be meat.

[Thinker]

These days, I don't like to use HP. I find it draws out combat and doesn't do a good job of describing how characters are actually doing. I prefer to have 3 to 5 health levels, depending on the game's tone and style. Something like this:

Wounds	Effect
Critical	Character is dying, cannot act without assistance of others
Severe	Character is gravely injured. Cannot make full successes or critical successes.
Moderate	Character is struggling, but is still ticking. Suffers a debility of some kind (half movement, requires concentration rolls, or something of that nature).
Light	Character has taken some scrapes, but has a lot left in the tank. Takes a penalty to all rolls.
Negligible	Character is bruised, but ready. No penalty.

Depending on the type of game I'm running, there might be multiple boxes in each level. Heroic fantasy characters would have two or three Negligible Wounds, a few Light Wounds, a couple of Moderate Wounds, a single Severe Wound, and a single Critical Wound. Tougher characters are more resistant to taking damage in the first place. I weigh the fiction against how the character was avoiding the damage. Reflex Save against a Lightning Trap? Might end up with a Light Wound as you were singed. Taking cover behind your tower shield against a volley of arrows? Might end up avoiding all harm.

[RedMage125]

I'd like to chime in here. Because I stick fairly close to the RAW, and by RAW, HP are not "meat", but rather an abstraction of how much "fight" you have left in you. Characters low on HP are getting tired, sore, and may have suffered superficial injuries.

One must be flexible, however, because some things don't make sense unless some form of contact has occurred. Like being poisoned after being bit by a giant viper, or a lycanthrope bite transferring the curse/disease.

So here's how I narrate hits: A hit can be an attack that the character had to spend a little bit of extra energy dodging, he/she is just a little more tired after doing that. It could be a blow that struck armor or shield, rattling the character, and perhaps being sore later, but nothing too serious. It could be a grazing wound (ideal for venomous/poisoned attacks). Energy attacks sometimes take some creativity (acid, especially). It's easy to narrate fire damage that doesn't kill as intense heat, maybe something unimportant caught fire, like the end of a sleeve. Sonic (thunder), likewise doesn't necessarily tear flesh. Cold and electricity also easy to narrate. Negative energy (necrotic) could leave skin pale and corpse-like in coloration, as it slightly necrotizes the flesh. Foce damage is a lot more like intense blunt impact trauma than anything else.

One thing I have done is adopted the "bloodied" condition from 4e. Whenever a creature is at 50% or less HP, it is "bloodied". This means it has finally taken at least SOME superficial damage, and is likely bleeding a little bit. This is for PCs as well. I ask that the players at my table not discuss HP totals in combat (but there's no real punishment if they slip and do anyway). So when the cleric asks "Who needs healing?" responses might be "I'm down a little, but not bloodied", "I'm bloodied", "I was bloodied 2 hits ago, and I can't take much more", and so on. I don't care if they discuss HP totals when doing out-of-combat healing. I will also tell players when a monster is "bloodied". This is the only information I give players in regards to monsters' HP totals or combat status. When they ask "are any of them hurt?". If they've been paying attention, they know which ones have been hit by their comrades, even if none are bloodied. But the only information I will disclose is which ones are bloodied, if any.

HOWEVER, a critical hit is always a "meat strike" when I run things. Doesn't matter is the damage rolled is so low that it does less than a non-crit could have. It doesn't have to be major, but it is narratively painful for the target, no matter what. An ogre takes a crit from an arrow, but it was previously unharmed, and it's nowhere near bloodied. The arrow sank into it's flesh near the shoulder, the ogre grunts, rips it out, and moves on, seemingly not bothered by it, even though a trickle of blood runs down its chest. Boromir in Fellowship took several crits in his last battle, even though the first few did not "bloody" him. Sneak attacks are on a case-by-case basis, but frequently are some kind of contact, whichever is more fun. A Rogue who bloodies an enemy with a sneak attack almost always gets narrated as something especially painful. For example, the Fighter has worked his way through the crowd of mooks and is now squaring off with the Hobgoblin Captain. The rogue, having nimbly darted across the field, comes up behind the hobgoblin with her dagger in hand. Distracted by her companion, the hobgoblin doesn't give her his full attention, which is a mistake. He dagger plunges into his side, piercing his chainmail and rewarding her with a cry of pain, a spurt of blood, and a curse in Goblin from the captain. She smiles, because she's sure she at least nicked his kidney with that, and because she speaks Goblin and knows what he just said. "You kiss your mother with that mouth?" she taunts, knowing if she can get his eyes off her Fighter friend, he'll make the hobgoblin regret it.

Avoidance of damage through saving throws can be narrated in a number of ways, as well. Let's say a party is in combat with a group of enemies, including an enemy spellcaster. At one point, the enemy casts Fireball on the party, getting everyone in the area of effect. Everyone rolls a Dexterity (or Reflex) save, and everyone passes. The Fighter takes half damage, but is not bloodied. The Rogue has Evasion, she takes nothing. The Cleric takes half damage and is now bloodied. The wizard only took half damage, but it's enough to drop her to -1 (or just 0, if you're playing 5e). Here's how the narrative goes: Fighter sees the fireball coming, and tucks his chin down and raises his shield over his face, trying to minimize the amount of bare skin exposed. He feels the intense heat wash over him (he's wearing metal armor, after all). His face is flushed and he's sweating, but not harmed too badly. He lowers his shield and glares grimly at the spellcaster who just cast the spell. The Rogue nimbly leaps and spins when the explosion comes, passing just so through a gap in the flames. She alights on her feet, ready to return fire with her bow. The cleric saw the explosion and, like the Fighter, raised his shield, silently calling to his deity for protection out of instinct. He feels the flames and intense blast of heat wash over him, but the favor of his deity is strong. The heat was so much that his skin is red. His armor is especially hot and uncomfortable, and he is certain that he can feel blisters on his arms underneath his armor. He looks around at his companions to see how they are, catching the wizard's eye just before she collapses. The wizard was intimately familiar with the fireball spell, being one of her own favorites. As soon as she heard the other wizard start chanting, she figured she'd be in the area of effect. She ducked and cringed, calling on her own arcane power to create a minor protective field, hopefully mitigating some of the damage. It worked, sort of. She didn't get burned TOO badly, she was not on fire, but that HURT. Her skin is bright red, her eyelashes, eyebrows and a few stray hairs on her head are a little crispy. Every inch of her feels like the worst, most painful sunburn imaginable, as blisters start to form and skin peels. She lowers her arms, and parts her chapped lips as if to speak. Nothing comes out as heat stroke takes her, and she falls to the ground unconscious.

[LibraryOgre]

So, I mostly think in Hackmaster, these days, which flavors this.

HP are not Meat, but HP loss is Meat in proportion to your total HP.

So, first level character with 10 HP gets a 8 point wound? That's a meat hit.
10th level character with 100 max HP gets an 8 point wound? That's not a meat hit.

Throwing in a 4e ism, "Bloodied" is a useful concept. Prior to being bloodied, you're not taking meat hits. After being bloodied, you're getting meat hits... again, in proportion to your HP.

[The Jack]

Oh no no no.

I run HP as meat in all but the most high-hp but oddly grounded of settings

In simple terms, DnD's like a toned down dragonball where the body just gets tougher. Forget about monks and barbarians; I mean a fighter that can attack nine times a turn? It only makes sense to have his durability supernatural. Everybody ascends in durability as they unlock their power, though some paths of improvement (Barbarian) lead more into this than others (Sorc, Wiz).

In games like WoD where HP is definitely meat, I go all out on describing how messed up you are. If your character can survive disembowelments and still function, why wouldn't I let the guts fly?

[Conradine]

In my opinion, HP from levels is "ability to dodge and attenuate damage", HP from Costitution is "meat".

For example, even a squishy level 18 Wizard, despite phisically fragile, is able to escape somehow most of the impacts; but a level 1 Barbarian with magic gear and 28 Costitution while raging can survive being pierced through the heart.

[Telok]

I'v gotten some pretty good humor value out of playing the "hp is not meat" thing straight. Having literally everything be a luck or fatigue based description untill the character dies and explodes in ludicrous giblet spray. It works particularly well in games that use hp for pretty much everything and don't do actual wound/damage based status conditions. It's even better in games with faster or easier 'back from death' kinds of rules like having healers being able to cast in-combat spells that un-kill a character.

[Kurald Galain]

I'm familiar with the refrain that HP aren't meat. But every single combat narration I've ever seen assumes that they are. I think this is because "You're definitely wearing him down" and "He's tiring, you almost slipped past his guard that time" are incredibly boring phrases. So, to reiterate the thread title: If HP aren't meat, how do you narrate combat?

It's funny that this question gets numerous responses that "it's not meat but I'll describe it as meat anyway"

[RedMage125]

It's funny that this question gets numerous responses that "it's not meat but I'll describe it as meat anyway"

Well, if you look at my response, I said HP is how much "fight" you have left in you. Taking a physical blow certainly diminishes that. And the drop to 0 is always considered some kind of physical damage.

[jjordan]

It's funny that this question gets numerous responses that "it's not meat but I'll describe it as meat anyway"

It is. Which is why I asked the question. It seems to me that HP really are an abstraction and not actual physical damage taken BUT the requirements of interesting roleplaying make us treat HP as actual physical damage. Which makes sense. Right up until you've got people healing broken ribs and axe slashes and worg bites by getting a good night's rest.

I'm trying to think back over the body of fantasy material I can remember to think about protagonist injuries. It seems as though there's a lot of the Star Wars effect going on: the protagonists engage in desperate fighting but usually don't get anything more than minor cuts, bruises, and scrapes. A solid hit from a weapon (blaster, sword, arrow, knife) was a dangerous thing that took a long time to heal in the absence of magic (or technology sufficiently advanced to act like magic).

I'm not trying to change the way D&D 5e works this, I'm just trying to figure out how I can work with it and have the game still be fun for everyone.

[Segev]

A "hit" can be a shallow cut across the bicep that would have been much worse if he hadn't been as fast to dodge. Or it can be a stab to the gut turned aside not-quite-fast-enough by a parry. Each successful, hp-loss-inducing damage source does at least something; a mild burn, a bleeding cut, a bruise that'll swell impressively if not treated, some hair clipped off of the side of your head. Not only do these accumulate to gradually slow you down, but the energy and luck spent to turn what should have been mortal blows into these minor inconveniences is tiring, draining on a level deeper than mere exercise. The metal focus, the stamina, and even the realization that you can't keep getting lucky every time factors into it.

So describe successful hits in ways that inform this. Describe how the blow was almost fatal, but they turned it into a minor injury with a combination of luck, skill, and combat awareness.

Critical hits are much closer to fatal, and may be "more meat" than usual. Coup de grace do as much damage as they do because they are going straight for the meat, and you have to be AMAZINGLY lucky, skilled, or (yes) tough, to avoid a fatal injury when you're helpless and somebody's trying to execute you.

In systems where you're fine until 0 hp, that last, 1 hp is the important one. It's that one that is the fatal, crippling, or otherwise disabling hit. When you take that last hp, you didn't turn the sword aside; it skewered you. You didn't just get your hair clipped; your bell was rung. The arrow didn't just lodge shallowly in your shoulder; it hit an artery. You're actually hurt, this time, and it's making it hard to move, if you're even still conscious.

[Mendicant]

I just mostly describe the blows numerically. I'll describe the enemy's general state of being maybe, but unless the blow kills I avoid describing what happened.

What HP "really are" is less important than if the picture being drawn for the player seems reasonable to them. You can tell people "how aren't meat" till you're blue in the face, but when you describe their solid-damage hit as having reduced the enemy's resolve or something, the typical response IME is disappointment or even the mistaken impression that they failed.

If you don't do a lot of description, people will fill in that blank themselves with whatever seems reasonable to them.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I don't really narrate most hits, because speed of resolution is primary for me.

But in-universe (and because I found it amusing), I made it canon that hit points are meat. Specifically, each being has two "reserves" of bodily energy that they can use to repair tissue and heal injuries much faster than "earth standard".

Hit points represent the ready-reserve. This energy can be mobilized almost instantly. Above half, even minor cuts heal pretty much instantly and even serious injuries heal. Basically a "fast healing", Wolverine-style. Doesn't reduce the pain or shock of the injury, but you won't die or be permanently injured. Below half, the body prioritizes healing the major stuff, so you're "bloodied"--ie showing visible wounds, topical bleeding, etc. Hitting 0 HP means you're out of healing energy, so you're down while the body tries to do everything it can to keep you alive (death saving throws). For NPCs, this may cause lasting injuries, limb loss, etc. I don't do that for PCs just for game purposes.

Hit Dice represent the slow-acting reserve. Given some down-time, the body can mobilize other resources to replenish the ready reserve. This takes much more time and rest to recover. Your hit dice are a measure of your soul capacity, so more powerful creatures (more/larger hit dice) are more tempting targets for blood magic. In universe, several civilizations have actually quantified the amount of energy possessed by an average soul and figured out more efficient way of turning people into "bricks" of compressed energy ready to be consumed for power.

Diseases affect the soul/body connection (much more like a curse) rather than being directly microbial agents or whatever. That's because my setting's physics and biology is much more Platonic/Aristotelian than modern. No atoms, no molecules, no cells. Just anima with various aspects.

[Psyren]

I think this is because "You're definitely wearing him down" and "He's tiring, you almost slipped past his guard that time" are incredibly boring phrases.

Why? They seem fine to me.

Alternatively you can use ones like "glancing blow" and "you jab his leg."

[Kaptin Keen]

I uh ... do other people really 'narrate' every swing of the sword? I mean, really?

I narrate death blows. In wonderful technicolor. But I fail to imagine the player who really wants to have 7 hp of damage (out of 89) described in any particular level of detail.

I'm more likely to narrate a miss. Because it's just more interesting. Provided of course the player has a sense of (self) irony.

[Knaight]

I uh ... do other people really 'narrate' every swing of the sword? I mean, really?

In some systems, sure - I wouldn't do it if I ever found myself GMing Palladium or something, but I'm not going to do that. When everyone is maybe 3 hits away from bleeding out on the floor, at best? That gets narrated.

Assuming the system uses an HP system which doesn't represent physical injury I tend to describe it in terms of fictional positioning, momentum, etc - especially when I don't have a map restricting those descriptions. A high HP character may be poised and fighting on the aggressive, sword at the ready, a low HP character might be taking potshots from behind a wall as it slowly ablates to incoming plasma fire.

Said descriptions just need to stay short. There's a couple of exceptions (death scenes for really major characters, battles in particularly exceptional conditions that would stand out), but generally? All short sentences, all the time.

[Kane0]

Star Wars might be a good example. You actually get struck by a lightsaber and you’re losing a limb or getting a hole in you (well, except in the sequels but anyway). Same story with blaster bolts (again with some exceptions).

But the fight lasts longer than that, with exertion, parries, luck (or the force, because in my experience theres no such thing), the occasional nick or near miss, etc.

[Cikomyr]

It's meat when I need it to be. It's not when it's not

[MoiMagnus]

I'm familiar with the refrain that HP aren't meat. But every single combat narration I've ever seen assumes that they are. I think this is because "You're definitely wearing him down" and "He's tiring, you almost slipped past his guard that time" are incredibly boring phrases. So, to reiterate the thread title: If HP aren't meat, how do you narrate combat?

We use a mixture of those:

1) We have the bloodied condition from 4e. Even if HP aren't only meat, we assume you have some visible damages when under half of your HP, and no damages when above. (Possibly damages to armors and clothes, but without any technical consequences)

2) We don't narrate. More precisely, we only narrate "relevant moments". So when a player want to narrate its final blow, he is free to interpret as he want its level of HP (wounds, desperation, broken armor, exhausted, ...), or just ignore it for the narration. Same for the DM's narration, HP is not treated in a consistent way. Sometimes, a player will ask "how much HP this guy still has" and the DM will answer "a lot / he is bloodied / very few / ..." and no narration will take place.

3) Mid and high level creatures and players are supernatural enough so that we can take the "cinematographic" approach: You can have injuries that look like you would die in 30s, but if the plot need you to stay alive (or in our case, if the rules says you're still few strikes away from death), then you will suffer no real consequences for them.
[And your lost fingers will regrow by themselves when you take a short rest]

[Psyren]

Star Wars might be a good example. You actually get struck by a lightsaber and you’re losing a limb or getting a hole in you (well, except in the sequels but anyway). Same story with blaster bolts (again with some exceptions).

But the fight lasts longer than that, with exertion, parries, luck (or the force, because in my experience theres no such thing), the occasional nick or near miss, etc.

I would argue that such as system would absolutely need wounds, injuries, called shots and the like to properly approximate its source material. I've never played a Star Wars system so I don't know if any do this.

[HouseRules]

A normal person would faint when they lose 1/3 of their blood. Low Constitution people in real life would die when they lose 1/2 of their blood, and High Constitution people in real life would die when they lose 2/3 of their blood.

Hit Points represent fantastic blood. While a normal person has 5 quarts of blood, fantastic creatures have much higher volume.
Hitting 0 Current Hit Points is the equivalent of losing 1/3 of a normal person's blood, so they remain 10/3 quarts of blood. At -10 hit points is death, so we determine that each hit point is worth 1/3 of a quart of blood. A normal person thus has 5 hit points, and Fantastic beings have more than 5 hit points.

Fantastic Blood does not take up any volume at all since they stay within the Astral Realm when the body has more than 5 hit points.

[RedMage125]

I would argue that such as system would absolutely need wounds, injuries, called shots and the like to properly approximate its source material. I've never played a Star Wars system so I don't know if any do this.

Star Wars d20 systems usually do. I don't remember if Saga Edition did or not, but the d20 system modelled after 3e did. You had Vitality, which was like hp. That loss represented narrow misses, parrying, and the like, and Wounds, which equaled your CON score, and damage to that was actual injury.

[King of Nowhere]

I've tried to do it, but there were too many inconsistencies. the man falling at terminal velocity is just one of them.

So now I narrate HP as meat.

I realize it's just much more consistent all around. High level people are superhuman on all counts. they can kill a giant dragon with a few sword slashes, that's not something any ordinary person could do. they could lift a small car. they can survive spells that deal damage regardless. And on top of that, they are also magically enhanced.

so by stating that everyone high level is basically a superhero you can get consistent with all those abilities.

I have described high level characters getting hit square in the chest with a cannon and have the cannonball bouncing off. After breaking several bones, of course, a cannon is still signifficant damage, but it did not turn them into a red paste as it would with a lesser person.

[Anymage]

In D&D combat, I just abstract it. D&D neither has nor needs a specific system for blow-by-blow resolution. Plus, trying to tie down just what non-meat quantities HP represent would interact oddly with the Cure line of spells. (4e had a good system of distinguishing short-term capacity from long-term stamina, but that was rather deeply tied to a lot of things intrinsically 4e.)

Other systems can, depending on the theme, either go all-in on the meat idea (usually because PCs are assumed to have some sort of healing factor in their favor), or else can be described as positioning/momentum if you have a track that resets between encounters.