BAB as a skill?

[Human Paragon 3]

Just a thought: how about a variant where BAB is a skill, or, maybe two skills Ranged and Melee. Give non-primary casting classes a couple extra skill points per level to balance it out and I think it could be good.

Apart from the obvious problem of skill points being +3 higher than a full BAB, I think it's workable. I think only full BAB classes should have BAB as a class skill. Rogues and clerics would benefit from this at lower levels and start feeling the hurt at higher levels, perhaps not the best outcome. Maybe Rogues could have Ranged as a class skill and clerics could have Melee as a class skill.

This is all rather rough, but I'd be interested in hearing some thoughts. BAB is kind of a sloppy mechanic when you get right down to it.

[Gralamin]

This is all rather rough, but I'd be interested in hearing some thoughts. BAB is kind of a sloppy mechanic when you get right down to it.

Replacing a Sloppy mechanic with a sloppy mechanic eh? Good luck!

[Ceiling009]

err.. Besm d20 does this... it's a decent mechanic, but it brings so much cheese. It makes sense in the way that, if a character trains to kill, then their BAB should reflect that. But then, the game breaks. DnD has some really esoteric ideas behind balance, but it keeps the game working more or less... On the other hand, it works really well in a point based game, versus D20 or variants of it...

[vivi]

hmmmm... maybe it should also cost x2 to balance it out.

[Skjaldbakka]

If you are going to go there, you should probably also get rid of Armor Class, convert armor and natural armor bonuses to DR, and have a skill for each weapon group, as well as a skill for Shield Block, Dodge, and Parry.

I believe Talislanta uses a system like that.

[Setra]

hmmmm... maybe it should also cost x2 to balance it out.

Maybe an exception for the poor Fighter though.

[Lord Zentei]

If you change BAB into a skill, you might as well go the full monty and change d20 into a skill points based system, in the manner of GURPS and suchlike.

In this case, not only BAB, but saves and Feats are paid for with "skill" points (and paying for skill points with XP, or simply awarding such points instead of XP). Also, different weapon classes could possibly have different "skill" levels if this is needed for balance.

[warbacon]

If you change BAB into a skill, you might as well go the full monty and change d20 into a skill points based system, in the manner of GURPS and suchlike.

Oh god yes. The sheer amount of different kinds of "advancement" bothers me in d20. WoD, GURPS, and a whole slew of other systems keep everything in terms of a singular XP cost ... while it might not be balanced (seriously, what RPG system is well and truly "balanced"? There are always opportunities for glass cannons and other such min-maxing), it at least means that when you gain experience for plot advancement or good roleplaying, you have to specifically assign where those points go.

Back to the OP: I've been floating the idea of BAB as a skill myself for a quite a while ... but you have to admit that BAB as separate from skills creates a clarity you can't otherwise match, especially if you start getting into funky homebrew classes that don't follow canon progressions. In my view, d20 is fundamentally broken as a "realistic" system from the start, yet it works well enough in practice. If you start changing core properties of the system, you're going to have to rewrite large sections of the system before you get back to anything resembling playable -- in a word, it's more trouble than it's worth.

[Nebo_]

You'll get things like Skill Focus (BAB), skill boosting items and able learner for easier BAB. A dip into exemplar or 10 levels of rogue would be nice to, for taking 10 on attack rolls. It won't work.

[Thanatos 51-50]

Sure, give me Defense as a skill, too.

[Justdamohr]

If you are going to go there, you should probably also get rid of Armor Class, convert armor and natural armor bonuses to DR, and have a skill for each weapon group, as well as a skill for Shield Block, Dodge, and Parry.

I believe Talislanta uses a system like that.

Its funny that I read this because a friend and I had converted AC and Natural Armor bonuses into DR in a game.

The DR would include the Con. Modifier of the character since the body does have its own natural resistance, the bonus of the armor itself and pretty much any additional bonuses i.e. natural armor, deflection bonus ext.

In return, Dodging would essentially be a reflex save against the opposing attacker's roll. And things like parrying, and total defense would add to the reflex save.

Each armor would possess a specific % for instance chain mail shirt would have a 75%. The percent would pertain to whether or not the attacker bypasses the ARMOR's defense, meaning that all physical armor has some sort of exposed area. Every time the attacker makes an attack, and if they succeed against the opposer's reflex save in connecting, they have a chance to roll that percentage die. Upon failure, their attack is reduced by the Armor's bonus, upon success, their attack doesn't suffer the DR incurred by the armor.


For fighter based character's they would attain + %'s meaning that every time they hit, they increase their chance of striking the vulnerable point of an opponent's armor. For instance Fighter's would steadily attain + 1% each level to a max of +20% by 20th level. Every time they would roll a % die to see if they struck a vulnerability spot, they would add this bonus to their roll to increase their chances.


Its a system that could work, although I believe would be tedious after a while but I suppose that depends on your gaming group. I know for certain when I used it once with one of my campaigns it kept the group on edge, everyone was entirely focused because combat was no longer "okay everyone tell me your AC" and then they wait. Now it was "did you dodge it and survive" and they were content with that. I mean battle's were a little longer because of the DR but it made it slightly more realistic. It also kept my lazier of players from simply sitting back and not doing anything which was nice. They had to be involved and think on their feet a bit more.

But this is just an idea.

I could see BAB maybe working as a skill. Say its called BAB Skill. For every 4 points put into the Skill, you attain 1 attack. The skill would be based off of Int. Okay so a character rolls a 1d20 and adds the Skill ranks to see how many attacks they gain for that round. The BASE ATTACK BONUS would then rely on the character's Dexterity since its a hand eye coordinated skill and attacking requires hand eye coordination. Strength would still apply as additional melee damage.

The issue with this is that now, the highest anyone can roll would be 1d20 + Dex Modifier which can work, its just people would have to put a lot of points into their Dex. And also there can be feats that aid in bolstering attacks for instance, Feat: Strike Hard. Gain + 2 to BASE ATTACK BONUS. Plus weapons can increase attack bonuses such as Masterwork Weapons, + 1, +2, +3, etc. Things of that nature. I mean its just an idea but I think it could work.

[TheSteelRat]

Yeah, BAB as a skill wouldn't work. If it's a class skill, they'll have it maxed out, and if it's not a class skill, they'll still have it maxed out, so you're basically splitting people into Full BAB and 1/2 BAB, and that's not including some feats/paragons/etc. that would let you add "BAB skill" to a class list, which would give you a Wizard - 1 casting lvl with full BAB in exchange.

If you're looking for skill-based fighting, I'd suggest the Earthdawn System. It fails like D&D in Balance in super-high levels with magic spells being incredibly broken, but except for the last few levels I'd say everything is about even.

[Lord Zentei]

Yeah, BAB as a skill wouldn't work. If it's a class skill, they'll have it maxed out, and if it's not a class skill, they'll still have it maxed out, so you're basically splitting people into Full BAB and 1/2 BAB, and that's not including some feats/paragons/etc. that would let you add "BAB skill" to a class list, which would give you a Wizard - 1 casting lvl with full BAB in exchange.

If you're looking for skill-based fighting, I'd suggest the Earthdawn System. It fails like D&D in Balance in super-high levels with magic spells being incredibly broken, but except for the last few levels I'd say everything is about even.

Perhaps a "semi-class skill" concept or something like it could be introduced?

Or mayhap you could allow synergies with other class skills to allow the 3/4 progression? In the latter case, Clerics et.al could have BAB as a non class skill, but allowing for synergies this level could be boosted some.


PS: linka to Earthdawn plz?