Dragons as bankers?

[MaxMahem]

I was daydreaming the other night, when suddenly a rather odd but appropriate idea came upon me, why aren't dragoons more often cast in the role of bankers in fantasy universes? Typically it is dwarves with their hoards of goal and defense minded facilities, or gnomes with their bookishness and head for figures to keep the balance sheets. However I think dragons could work very well as Banking figures as well.

#1. Dragons traditionally keep large "hoards" of Gold, Jewels, and other valuable treasures. The exact reasons for this is often unclear but it is apparently something dragons are by instinct driven to do. A large supply of Gold or other tradable commodity is the basics of a bank.

#2. Dragons hoards of treasures are always well protected. Both by the dragons (who are generally the most powerful and fearsome creatures in fantasy universes) and by a collections of traps and other defenses. Indeed one of Dragons favored minions, Kobolds, are renowned for there fiendish and clever trapmaking skills. Again this is also a requirement for a bank which would want its reserves to be well protected.

#3. Numbers one and two combine to allow a dragon to perform all the services of a bank if it wanted. A dragon has a large hoard or reserve which it could easily lend out if it wanted. And the secure nature of a dragons hoard means that potential investors could feel secure in depositing their treasure with the dragon. The strength and power of a dragon is an excellent reputation to fall back upon. I mean who would doubt the validity of a Check/Promissory note backed by a dragon? And who would be foolish enough to try and welsh on a debt collectible by a dragon?

#4. Most dragons are intelligent enough to come up with and execute such a scheme. Dragons generally are considerably more intelligent than gnomes or dwarves who are usually burdened with these roles, and better equipped to execute them as well. The dragons favorite minions (kobolds) while deficient in other areas are not lacking in cleverness as well.

#5. Some may argue that giving away its treasure goes against the mentality of a dragon and it is something they are loath to do. While this is certainly true, it should be remembered that Banks are fundamentally profitable (indeed VERY profitable) institutions for the organizations that run them. A dragon may frown slightly whenever someone comes and makes a withdrawal from money in his "vault." This will be more than compensated by the fact that he is making a tidy income off of it. Indeed while inflation is generally ignored in fantasy universes, one would expect the value of a dragons hoard to decrease with time (assuming he didn't supplement it) if he wasn't actively investing it in something and generating a return. In addition, in a well run bank the actual amount of currency that flows through it can be surprisingly small.

#6. A bank lets a dragon enjoy both parts of hoard craving nature. A dragons intellectual side will be satisfied by the ever increasing sums he owns on a balance book. While his beastly nature will be pleased by his depositors deposits which he can nest on as if they were his own.

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What do you guys think? Next time your players visit a bank in one of your universes, maybe it should be the Bank of Trogdor eh?

[kpenguin]

Generally, powerful dragons consider themselves beyond such petty mortal matters like banking. The idea does have merit, though.

"Welcome to First Draconic. How may I help you?"

[Eighth_Seraph]

I could definitely see copper dragons doing this sort of thing with the added benefit of having someone to talk to as he's doing the transaction. The question is: is it worth it to securely deposit your gold pieces in exchange for a full conversation with a copper dragon, where 'full' is being defined by said dragon?

'tis a near thing, all told.

[ideasmith]

Banking does not just require having lots of treasure and protecting it. It also requires loaning/allowing withrawals.

And dragons just hate giving treasure up.

[Hawriel]

Hmm things you dont want to hear from your dragon banker.

Your loan had been...denied

Im sorry but we will be forclosing on your castle.

Sence you have been delinquent on your lone for the past 3 months we are going to have to take your collateral, will you be bringing in your ansestral armor or do we have to send in the repodrake?

Im sorry farmer Bob but we really want to have a rail road built through your farm. I really dont think your next harvest will be enough to pay for this year.

[DraPrime]

This would never work. Dragons wouldn't want to be bothered with something like this. And who ever heard of a dragon giving up gold? I'm pretty sure they'll lose lots of customers because they eat livestock, which doesn't make people happy.

[PirateMonk]

This would never work. Dragons wouldn't want to be bothered with something like this.

Depends on how aggressive the dragon in question is. But in general, yes.

And who ever heard of a dragon giving up gold?

As the OP noted, this is mitigated by the fact that they're profiting off it.

I'm pretty sure they'll lose lots of customers because they eat livestock, which doesn't make people happy.

Dragon bankers can afford to buy the livestock.

[Belteshazzar]

That is just dark. I mean at least before they simply sat on their ill gotten gains but now they can actually put that 25 Int and Wis to use and start controlling the economy. How weird would it be to realize that the kind old king who sent you to kill the fearsome dragon is actually doing so because his extravagant spending has put him in the red and the dragon simply wants his cash back. That and his daughter makes for nice, legal collateral.

[Xuincherguixe]

Coming from a Shadowrun background where corporate dragons are fairly common this isn't that foreign an idea.

If a Dragon got over the whole "giving up" of treasure, it could have the potential to get a lot of money. It's entirely possible that it could even start hiring people. And doing some serious manipulation. For instance, it could hire some raiders to burn crops, causing food prices to sky rocket. So now the peasants need to take out a loan to buy food. And when they can't pay, the Dragon can take the land.

[Hectonkhyres]

I can't see a problem with this. The dragon would essentially be president and controlling stockholder of the enterprise. He would have the final say in everything... but it would be rare that he would have to take any part in the day to day running of the company. Kobolds would do the paperwork. Kobolds would do most of the guarding. Kobolds would be the ones to deal with clients... at least at the central office. The dragon can sit there in a luxury-lined citadel atop his mountain, eating finely roasted livestock all day.

He is just the man behind the curtain. A massive, breath-weapony man behind the curtain with a lifespan that dwarfs that of whole civilizations. His purpose is that of the veiled thread. The business will run smoothly... or else.

Some dragons would be into this. As was mentioned, copper dragons are practically information starved. Business might be positively addictive. And more than a few other types would find their own reasons to run a banking system.

And they don't have to give up gold. Think Scrooge McDuck's moneybin. Filled with cash that most of the time just sits there. The gold stays, but the rights to the gold gets transfered. Its dragon travelers checks. The modern banking system with a twist.

[PirateMonk]

And there's little to stop the more aggressive ones from carving out an empire as far as the monetary system extends, as long as they have the patience.

[Yithian]

I must say, this is a clever idea. Not only does it give dragons an interesting purpose, it also gives them a great deal of power beyond their physical stats, as they can now (partially) control the economy, to some extent. This would make them very deadly opponents.

I am definitely using this in my next game.

Thanks,

Yithian

[daggaz]

It's a cool idea, but I can only see it working for coppers as well. And this has the added side effect of making that particular plot advice amusing at best. Any dastardly "evil-corporate-power-monger" ideas are going to be dashed by the simple fact that any evil dragon worth his beans will just take the livestock/land/gold/etc.. Its much simpler and the profit margins are higher, plus it suits their evilness much better.

Hmm... actually on second thought, this idea would work especially well with green dragons as well. They like to take humanoid form and trick people, they like to intimidate and use mind control spells, and they are Lawful Evil so it suits the bill just perfectly.

Cool idea, think it just got yoinked.

[Idiotbox90]

You finally gave me a reason for dragons to exist in my homebrew world. Thank you.

[PirateMonk]

It's a cool idea, but I can only see it working for coppers as well. And this has the added side effect of making that particular plot advice amusing at best. Any dastardly "evil-corporate-power-monger" ideas are going to be dashed by the simple fact that any evil dragon worth his beans will just take the livestock/land/gold/etc.. Its much simpler and the profit margins are higher, plus it suits their evilness much better.

Yes, but sheer force doesn't have the same capacity for empire-building and requires to dragon to do more no matter what their goal. Some dragons may not care about that, however.

[bosssmiley]

Not a new idea, but still a thought-provoking one.

Given their mythic origins I'd be inclined not to do this in my own games.
Western dragons are - traditionally - supposed to be personifications of avarice. They are rapacious and toxic greed given flesh; a flying, fire-breathing parable on the destructive effects of untrammelled possessiveness. From "Beowulf" and "The Nibelung Saga" onwards dragons derived gratification not from the gainful use of their hoards, but simply from the selfish dog-in-a-manger pleasure of having them. Dragons are the ultimate jackdaw misers; obsessively counting and recounting their hoards with no awareness that wealth unused is not truly wealth at all.

That said, even the traditional view makes for great 'protection racket' plots involving our iconic monster. The MM gives the example of Blue Dragons establishing strangleholds on oases, Black Dragons using enslaved swamp-dwellers as toll-collectors and Red Dragons regarding everything they see as theirs by right of conquest. Just don't ever expect to ever be able to tap a dragon for investment seed money; in their - far older and wiser than your - minds that's simply not what money is for. They're Ebenezer Scrooge, not Shylock.

[Emperor Tippy]

I use dragons as bankers and business man in all my home brewed worlds. My players have killed dragons before and found only a few hundred gold in his lair because it was all invested in various things.

I also use Elans as business men. Nothing like the guy who can live forever and doesn't need to eat.

[BardicDuelist]

I wouldn't make it a common practice, but I like the idea. To have a king take a loan from a dragon and never pay it back sounds like a fun plot hook.

[DraPrime]

Dragon bankers can afford to buy the livestock.

But where's the fun in that? No hunting? If I was a dragon I think I'd enjoy hunting instead of sitting in my lair all day and munching on animals without any effort.

[Dervag]

And they don't have to give up gold. Think Scrooge McDuck's moneybin. Filled with cash that most of the time just sits there. The gold stays, but the rights to the gold gets transfered. Its dragon travelers checks. The modern banking system with a twist.

Even then, they still have to give up gold every time someone cashes a traveler's check. They may be giving it up to another dragon, or in the expectation that they'll get gold back in a similar transaction a few days from now. But the basic principle remains that a banker who is uncomfortable with the notion of letting people make a withdrawal isn't going to do very well.

Banks, especially banks in the pre-industrial era, stood or fell on how well they interfaced with their customers and on their ability to convince people that the bank was reliable. A dragon isn't going to interface well with customers, nor is a kobold (filthy little buggers, aren't they?). Nor is a dragon going to have much luck convincing people that it will give up treasure when they ask for it.

But where's the fun in that? No hunting? If I was a dragon I think I'd enjoy hunting instead of sitting in my lair all day and munching on animals without any effort.

Well, then you'd be an active dragon. Dragons are reptiles; reptiles are quite capable of being lazy. So there's no reason why there shouldn't be dragons who are content to let their banking enterprise bring in the money and the beef cattle while they lounge around watching the crystal ball all day.

[BRC]

I could Imagine a dragon doing this

or maybe a very lawful dragon as an insurance agent.

[DraPrime]

Well, then you'd be an active dragon. Dragons are reptiles; reptiles are quite capable of being lazy. So there's no reason why there shouldn't be dragons who are content to let their banking enterprise bring in the money and the beef cattle while they lounge around watching the crystal ball all day.

According to Draconimicon, dragons aren't reptiles. They're big magical creatures of awesome power. I'm pretty sure they're active.

[PirateMonk]

But where's the fun in that? No hunting? If I was a dragon I think I'd enjoy hunting instead of sitting in my lair all day and munching on animals without any effort.

Who says they bring it to their lair rather than leaving it where it is?

[TheLogman]

Coppers, Bronzes, and Brasses would make good tellers, with the Golds and Silvers being guards. Also, for a small fee, you can have a Gold dragon add those Luckstones he makes to your personal horde.

[MaxMahem]

Thanks for all the replies. Some responses.

Generally, powerful dragons consider themselves beyond such petty mortal matters like banking.

I certainly could see dragons feeling like this. Imagine some clever/stupid gnome/kobold proposing the idea to a dragon. Faintly amused by the concept he decides to try it out. After all the investment necessary to set up a bank for a small village/hamlet would be chump-change to an adult dragon. However, once the a dragon became acquainted with the amount of money/rate of return he could potentially make through these institutions he would probably get over this. Dragons may be disinterested in mortal schemes, but more so than that they are very greedy. And his avarice might override his haughtiness.

Dragon's hate giving up treasure

Very true. But like I said in my first post, this is mitigated by the fact that the Dragon would be making money off of it. In fact he hasn't "given up" any money at all, he's merely invested it in something else. I very much doubt that a dragon (certainly not an evil one) would be giving out unsecured loans. Another point in favor for the dragon is that he will also be in control of large portions of other people wealth that is deposited with him. This will surely appeal to his greedy nature.

Given their mythic origins I'd be inclined not to do this in my own games.
Western dragons are - traditionally - supposed to be personifications of avarice. They are rapacious and toxic greed given flesh; a flying, fire-breathing parable on the destructive effects of untrammelled possessiveness. From "Beowulf" and "The Nibelung Saga" onwards dragons derived gratification not from the gainful use of their hoards, but simply from the selfish dog-in-a-manger pleasure of having them. Dragons are the ultimate jackdaw misers; obsessively counting and recounting their hoards with no awareness that wealth unused is not truly wealth at all.

True enough. However Banks especially in 1920s era literature are ALSO seen as the personification of greed and being miserly, so the two could go well together. I think there is quite a lot of overlap between the personification of the two...

Banks, especially banks in the pre-industrial era, stood or fell on how well they interfaced with their customers and on their ability to convince people that the bank was reliable. A dragon isn't going to interface well with customers, nor is a kobold (filthy little buggers, aren't they?). Nor is a dragon going to have much luck convincing people that it will give up treasure when they ask for it.

On the contrary, I think this is something Dragon Banks would excel at. People may be intimidate by a Dragon running a bank, but they will likely have a great deal of "faith" in the bank. They will know there money is in there and that it is secure. And that any fool that would try and rob the dragon/bank (and thus them as well) would get what they deserve. Withdrawls might be a problem, but I believe the Dragon would be able to get over it, restfully maybe.

[PirateMonk]

I very much doubt that a dragon (certainly not an evil one) would be giving out unsecured loans.

And if they do, it will be unofficially secured with the recipient's life.

[Leadfeathermcc]

I'm pretty sure they'll lose lots of customers because they eat livestock, which doesn't make people happy.

I eat livestock, I had a nice burger tonight. My clients don't seem to mind.

[de-trick]

nice idea, going to use idea if ok with you

[BardicDuelist]

Actually, this reminds me of the story that the rich casino guy tells in Rush Hour 2.

[The VP]

One of the parties in a game I was in used a dragon as their 'personal' banker. The dragon didn't provide the service to anyone but the party, but allowed us to store our ill begotten goods with him. In return, we acted as fences for him, selling all the weapons and armour and other non-money treasures for him, since they were less comfortable to lay on then gold.