Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

[Reddish Mage]

Well... If I ever feel like discussing GxS, I sure as hell won't bother going to another thread, seeing as it's pertinent to Death Battle.

Besides, nowadays, most of the mentions of that match are about how they relate to other matches.

I’ve seen this rodeo before. Splitting a thread into a new topic thread will result in a new thread that will go on for about 3 pages, then disintegrate and then we are back here, unless you get a mod to allow necromancy...in which case it will go on for 9 pages.

Also it may result in the main thread going necro as well because apparently all the energy is bound ups in bringing up that one topic and it turns out people aren’t all that interested in analyzing endless combinations of superheroes and so people constantly bring up:

1. Goku v. Superman
2. DB is a DC conspiracy
3. Some combination of DBs greatest misses: Gaara vs. Toph, Link vs. Cloud, now allegedly Ben 10 vs. GL, and whether they prove DB is some sort of conspiracy.

What’s interesting about these is when they get brought up they often show how little progress has been made and how often people’s memory is fuzzy. We’ve just rehashed the statements thing AFTER we’ve made a big thing about how statements are all good evidence a couple times.

The statement that Superman has “infinity strength” is brought up every time, often as a random aside, and it does not appear in DB!!!! It’s one particularly obnoxious way of analyzing the conclusion of the second fight, where DB presents Superman lifting the book along with him hearing Jimmy’s distress call 26 light years away...not to say Superman has infinity stats, except to say Superman can do the impossible, and that is shown time in and time again.

They say Superman has no defined limits to his strength, which is a bit different. The idea is that Superman, given the opportunity and motivation, is simply strong enough regardless of his opponent’s strength...which is born out by canon Superman beating superior versions of himself!

[Lord Raziere]

They say Superman has no defined limits to his strength, which is a bit different. The idea is that Superman, given the opportunity and motivation, is simply strong enough regardless of his opponent’s strength...which is born out by canon Superman beating superior versions of himself!

Okay no, thats just bull. I don't care about the fight, but that just doesn't make sense all by itself. if they're superior version of himself, they should've won! thats the entire point of the term! Again this proves that DC is just a nonsense fractal. you could literally justify a DC character doing anything, because it seems the more I hear about it, the more it seems that their rules don't matter even in the slightest.

I'm throwing out any argument you make on the grounds of DC having internal logic form now on, because it clearly doesn't. its not a sense factory, because it makes none. its clearly just low key chaos that you can't apply logic to.

[McNum]

I kind of find it impressive that people still care about Goku vs. Superman. It wasn't even the best fights, just two sluggers who try to cheat at reality more. I'd honestly rather see them fight anyone but each other at this point, but they're both is such a ridiculous weight class that finding proper thematic opponents is difficult unless you want a really lopsided fight. Which, to be fair, has been hilarious from time to time. Vegeta vs. Shadow the Hedgehog, anyone? Or Flash vs. Quicksilver, but that wasn't as funny.

Finding alternate opponents for the two bigshots is pretty tough, mind you. Who can face Superman and at least make him work for it other than Goku? I'd say Dr. Manhattan, but he's already DC, and same franchise battles aren't as fun. And on the same point, Goku level martial artists are rare. Ryu vs. Goku would be fun if it wasn't for the extreme lopsided-ness of that battle. As an aside, I want Ryu against another martial artist at some point. Yes, he already lost to Scorpion, but Shadow the Hedgehog got to lose twice over, so it's fine.

You know, I'll leave that as an open challenge for a tangent on that same old discussion.

"Superman and Goku are to return, but they cannot fight each other. Who do they fight instead?"

Main goal is that the fight should be entertaining.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Clearly, you have them crunch the numbers and figure out just how strong Saitama is.

[Lord Raziere]

Clearly, you have them crunch the numbers and figure out just how strong Saitama is.

unfortunately DB would say that Saitama isn't anything more than low planet buster at most given that the greatest thing he ever faced is Boros, and they don't take authors at their word. Goku and superman have long surpassed that.

its more likely that things like archmages, gods, planeswalkers, reality warpers or things like that would be more of a challenge, at this point to get near being challenges to them, you have to be incredibly hax in some way shape or form. just utterly broken in some cosmic manner that no one else can do anything about, because they are utterly broken in a cosmic manner that no one can do anything about.

so first we'd have to list a bunch of powers that are utterly broken in a cosmic manner to even start looking for someone.

[Traab]

unfortunately DB would say that Saitama isn't anything more than low planet buster at most given that the greatest thing he ever faced is Boros, and they don't take authors at their word. Goku and superman have long surpassed that.

its more likely that things like archmages, gods, planeswalkers, reality warpers or things like that would be more of a challenge, at this point to get near being challenges to them, you have to be incredibly hax in some way shape or form. just utterly broken in some cosmic manner that no one else can do anything about, because they are utterly broken in a cosmic manner that no one can do anything about.

so first we'd have to list a bunch of powers that are utterly broken in a cosmic manner to even start looking for someone.

Yeah and then we get to enjoy all sorts of fun like trying to justify why this guy who can literally reshape reality, either cant win, or takes it in a stomp. Ugh, at least with superman and goku their powers tend to be blaster powers which can be quantified, at least until we hit reality breaker and dimensional destruction levels. Like, we SEE supermans heat vision, I dunno, murder a planet. We can then at least TRY to extrapolate how powerful that attack is. Meanwhile you pick some reality warper and go, "Well he just blinked that planet into a slurpee machine..... how do we quantify THAT?!?!"

[Lemmy]

The statement that Superman has “infinity strength” is brought up every time, often as a random aside, and it does not appear in DB!!!! It’s one particularly obnoxious way of analyzing the conclusion of the second fight, where DB presents Superman lifting the book along with him hearing Jimmy’s distress call 26 light years away...not to say Superman has infinity stats, except to say Superman can do the impossible, and that is shown time in and time again.

Of course he can do the impossible... All super-powered characters can! Unless you know a way to be so good at kung-fu that you learn how to fly and shoot laser from your hands!

They say Superman has no defined limits to his strength, which is a bit different. The idea is that Superman, given the opportunity and motivation, is simply strong enough regardless of his opponent’s strength...which is born out by canon Superman beating superior versions of himself!

Also wrong. Because there are plenty of times where Superman is not only defeated, but downright overpowered. In fact, if he beat superior versions of himself, that means two things: A- He is not the most powerful thing ever (otherwise no one would be superior to him, not even himself). B- Even if he were, he'd can still be defeated(As seen by some version of Superman being defeated by an opponent who is, in your words, inferior to him... And also by the many times Superman was defeated by weaker opponents).

"If he's motivated, he can overpower/defeat anything" is not a part of Superman's character. Like Goku, he has infinity potential, but at no point he's able to "do anything, as long as he's motivated" (unless he's a real **** and lets super-powered battles drag on, because avoiding billions of dollars in propriety damage and gods-know-how-many deaths from collateral damage isn't enough motivation for him). They also say he "lifted infinity" (and even say Shazam and Wonder Woman didn't even have to be there), which is the same as saying he has infinity strength, unless you accept infinity (and eternity) have clearly defined (and limited) mass and weight, thus defeating the whole point of the "Superman can do anything" claim.

Superman's does indeed represent an ideal... But it's not "can do anything and is stronger than anything and everything" (as seen by, you know... He being beaten numerous times). It's "even when given motive, means and opportunity to be evil/selfish, choose to be good/selfless". Superman is much more about what he chooses to do with his powers than about what he can do. Sure... Super-hero comics being an action-oriented media, he's out there punching stuff and fighting evil maniacs, and having super-powers is just cool! But if the point is that he can do anything because he always overcomes the challenge and wins, then the same can be said about pretty much EVERY SINGLE PROTAGONIST IN HISTORY!

What's that? Rocky Balboa overcame every challenge thrown at him? Well... I guess he can lift infinity.

[Rater202]

I kind of find it impressive that people still care about Goku vs. Superman.

In both videos, they directly misrepresent feats from both characters. Notably, they not only arbitrarily set Goku's base power at Saiyan Saga but when they screwed up their math when calculating Goku's feats.

They also messed up on Super Sayain 4. In GT, there are two "levels" of Super Saiyan 4, the initial state and a "full power"s state. Regula Super Saiyan 4 is SSJ1 combined with the Great Ape form and compressed down to a manageable size. This means that, while we don't have an official multiplier, the most reasonable multiplier would be 500X base power. Full Power Super Saiyan 4 doesn't have a listed multiplier but is said to draw out the Saiyan's "full potential."

Meanwhile, for Superman, they claimed he tanked a giant supernova... Except if you actually read the comic in question Superman only withstood the electromagnetic shockwave that preceded the actual Supernova and there's a caption box that states that he would have died instantly if the supernova itself would have touched him.

They also took the "Goku went down to a normal laser" thing out of context by ignoring that Goku's toughness is, past a certain point, a function of him using his ki to protect him. In the second video where Superman

Superman was only exposed to the electromagnetic shockwave for a brief moment and regardless, most of the danger of the shockwave would have been radiation and Superman has almost never been shown to be susceptible to rads that werren't coming from Kryptonite.

They also claim that Ki attacks wouldn't be effective against Superman because it's not magic and that godly energies don't count as magic... 1: Dragon Ball makes no distinction between Ki and Magic and in DC Chi is a kind of magic, 2: it's been established that Lex Luthor, a man who is basically an expert on Superman and his powers/physiology from years of study, believes that Chi, weaponized properly against superman, would be extra effective and build device to siphon chi from the earth itself for that purpose, and 3: Godly stuff has always counted as magic for the purposes of Superman's ability to resist stuff.

So they misrepresent Goku to be weaker than he should be and misrepresent Superman to be stronger than he is, which is bad enough.

Then in the second video, they declared that Goku could never defeat Superman... For narrative reasons!

Specifically, they claim that Goku's narrative is about training to become the Best while Superman's is just "being the best." They also claim that while Goku has infinite potential, Superman is just "Infinite," and neither of those statements about Superman are true. Martian Man Hunter, Wonder Woman, most lanterns, and Aquaman are all on Superman's level with several lanterns and the Martian Man Hunter being his superiors--the Martian has all the same powers as Superman a the same levels plus psychic powers and high end shapeshifting.

Beyond that, Darkseid, Doomsday, and a handful of others are explicitly stronger than Superman.

And he can't be infinite because he's dependant on a finite source of energy to fuel his powers.

Going back o Narratives, for the most Part, Goku's narrative is "showing up and absolutely wrecking the strongest person in the world/universes' day." Goku's narrative is just as valid as Superman's alleged narrative and if you're arguing narrative it should be a coin flip, no t a guaranteed thing.

Death battles purports to base their results on data and observations. Claims based on narrative logic are anathema to that position.

Goku vs Superman coems up so often because DB didn't handle it properly. They blatantly wanked Superman's power set while downplaying Goku instead of making it a fair match up.

[Rynjin]

They also claim that Ki attacks wouldn't be effective against Superman because it's not magic and that godly energies don't count as magic... 1: Dragon Ball makes no distinction between Ki and Magic.

This is incorrect, though takes a bit of digging and piecing together to realize.

But many characters have abilities that are magic as separate from ki. Piccolo's "clothes beam" for example is magic, and for a bigger example, creating Dragon Balls is magic.

It's the reason why Piccolo can't make Dragon Balls; he's a Warrior clan Namekian rather than Dragon Clan, and sucks at magic too much to make them. Hence why they need to import Dende to be the new Guardian of Earth.

Bibidi and Babidi are likewise characters that utilize magic but not ki (hence their paper-like durability, but respectable offensive power), while Buu uses both.

All of this is stated in the series at various points.

[Rater202]

This is incorrect, though takes a bit of digging and piecing together to realize.

But many characters have abilities that are magic as separate from ki. Piccolo's "clothes beam" for example is magic, and for a bigger example, creating Dragon Balls is magic.

It's the reason why Piccolo can't make Dragon Balls; he's a Warrior clan Namekian rather than Dragon Clan, and sucks at magic too much to make them. Hence why they need to import Dende to be the new Guardian of Earth.

Bibidi and Babidi are likewise characters that utilize magic but not ki (hence their paper-like durability, but respectable offensive power), while Buu uses both.

All of this is stated in the series at various points.

1: They never at any point claim that magic runs on separate energy. Piccolo can't make the Dragon bAlls because he's the wrong clan but can otherwise use magic without any problems. Babidi's magic isn't actually all the strength it basically boils down to mind-controlling people that are weaker than him and boosting people's power. Vegeta more or less instantly shrugged off the mind control and it's all but outright stated that it only worked because he wanted it to.

2: There are several ki techniques, such as the Evil Containment Wave and the Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack, that are basically magic.

No explicit distinction is ever made between magic spells and ki. It's the same energy, it's just being used differently.

3: Deathbattles wouldn't be aware of this at the time, but the Planet Eater Moro Saga, which is a manga only bit that will presumably be adapted into the second arc of the Super Revival(confirmed but no date known) flat out says that magic and ki is the same thing. Moro is explicitly a wizard who is using magic and casting spells but those spells are fueled with ki and life force, the same as literally every other technique. It is not at all depicted as odd that his magic is ki powered, and he got the title "Planet Eater" from his habit of draining the life-force and ki of entire planets worth of life forms so that he could increase his power level and thus the potency of his magic.

So yes, magic and ki are the exact same thing in Dragon Ball.

[Rynjin]

1.) Yes, they do. Implicitly, by referring to some things as magic and others as techniques.

2.) And yet they run on different energy.

3.) The Super manga deviates from the anime at several points, and it is the latter which is considered canon. If and when it is adapted and that distinction is made, I'll admit I'm wrong. Until then, nah, I'll go with the distinction as it's been set up for the last 20 years.

[Reddish Mage]

I agree you have the essence of his personality and morality down but winning and being strong are absolutely a part of Superman’s character.

A lot of things about how he behaves doesn’t work, and isn’t moral, unless Superman is really really capable. For example, leaving his opponents alive and healthy to fight again doesn’t work if he’s not really confident he’ll be able to stop them next time they threaten the planet (contrast Goku is on record that he doesn’t care if the planet’s destroyed by his negligence).

Superman also is typical in showing restraint in taking on opponents. Restraint only works if you are stronger. If Superman appears weaker...those are the time he will explicitly lets lose and gives it all he got.

All the deathbattle characters have extremely vague and even contradictory limits. After five threads of this I really don’t know why anybody would think otherwise, but I suppose people are really good at reading meaning and unity in nonsense and contradiction. DC characters are some of the worse in this regard. They are shown doing some truly internally contradictory things and occasionally do these OP feats at a cosmic level (“GL has more will than will itself”, “Superman can hear a signal from 26 light years away in space”).

As such, it’s easy to make a story of a DC character’s abilities that justify a win. This is especially true for Superman who can make a claim to be “DC’s strongest superhero.” You may be able to tell the story the other way and have them lose, but I noticed that the stories that have the other guy winning tend to disallow the most OP DC feats while finding a reason to allow the other’s flash-in-a-pan type OP feats.

[HolyDraconus]

I agree you have the essence of his personality and morality down but winning and being strong are absolutely a part of Superman’s character.

A lot of things about how he behaves doesn’t work, and isn’t moral, unless Superman is really really capable. For example, leaving his opponents alive and healthy to fight again doesn’t work if he’s not really confident he’ll be able to stop them next time they threaten the planet (contrast Goku is on record that he doesn’t care if the planet’s destroyed by his negligence).

Superman also is typical in showing restraint in taking on opponents. Restraint only works if you are stronger. If Superman appears weaker...those are the time he will explicitly lets lose and gives it all he got.

All the deathbattle characters have extremely vague and even contradictory limits. After five threads of this I really don’t know why anybody would think otherwise, but I suppose people are really good at reading meaning and unity in nonsense and contradiction. DC characters are some of the worse in this regard. They are shown doing some truly internally contradictory things and occasionally do these OP feats at a cosmic level (“GL has more will than will itself”, “Superman can hear a signal from 26 light years away in space”).

As such, it’s easy to make a story of a DC character’s abilities that justify a win. This is especially true for Superman who can make a claim to be “DC’s strongest superhero.” You may be able to tell the story the other way and have them lose, but I noticed that the stories that have the other guy winning tend to disallow the most OP DC feats while finding a reason to allow the other’s flash-in-a-pan type OP feats.

...... so Zatanna vs Scarlett Witch? Or Electro vs Static Shock (I guess Black Lightning can rumble in that too)

[Lord Raziere]

Okay.

If Magic is different from ki, then it must run on a different energy. got it.

then if it runs a different energy, they would not be able to sense someone like Babidi since he wouldn't be using any ki, or sense anyone currently using magic

logical right?

so was there ever a case of Babidi not being sensed because he isn't using ki?

and even if they're separate, both magic and ki can teleport. so they are both capable of at least one thing in common. they both use physical motions, calling attack names and energies from within yourself to work. if there is a distinction, there isn't much of one, since its never explained what requires what as opposed to which and they look pretty much the same in practice.

and even if magic is separate, Beerus sealed the Old Kai away with a sealing spell, which is similar to the Evil Containment wave, which ki-users can do, so thats a second thing that both ki-users and magic users can do, if they are separate: seal people or things away.

next up lets take a look at Potara Earrings: they can't possibly be ki based right? they are an item and ki requires a body to use, but magic can be put into things like the Power Pole. BUT. the fusion dance IS ki based since I doubt Goten or Trunks can use magic. so, that is another thing that both ki and magic can do.

furthermore both Puar and Oolong can shapeshift using magic, which is changing forms. Super saiyans can change into various forms as well, not for disguise of course, but clearly ki is capable of altering ones body, with Roshi being able to bulk up, Freeza being able to change forms, and furthermore Oolong never masters shpaeshifting and can do only so up to five minutes while Puar can do indefinitely, so not much different from a ki based transformation like super saiyan which has similar principles of being only used for a limited until you train enough to use it indefinitely. so thats another thing that both ki and magic can do.

and both the matter materialization spell and one of freezas ki blasts involves firing a ray from your finger. the difference is the effect: one manipulates matter one way (tearing it apart) one manipulates matter another (reforming it). these effects are opposite, but if the gesture is the same, with no clear difference in the energy used, then the only difference is the knowledge of how that energy is being used. so both magic and ki use beams to do things, that is also another similarity between the two.

oh but if they are the same, wouldn't they not NEED separate techniques to do the same thing? well then I ask you in turn: wouldn't you not need separate technique names for Kamehameha, Galick Gun or Final Flash? they're all just beams, destructo Disc or Tri Beam cannon make sense they're different but why three names for firing a beam? why two names for teleportation? why two methods of fusion? why more than one way to seal away stuff? Dragon Ball is a little redundant like that.

I find it much more believable that any distinction between magic and ki is false and that different techniques are just being redundant rather than any actual difference, because Dragon Ball has often shown to be needlessly redundant.

[Traab]

Okay.

If Magic is different from ki, then it must run on a different energy. got it.

then if it runs a different energy, they would not be able to sense someone like Babidi since he wouldn't be using any ki, or sense anyone currently using magic

logical right?

so was there ever a case of Babidi not being sensed because he isn't using ki?

and even if they're separate, both magic and ki can teleport. so they are both capable of at least one thing in common. they both use physical motions, calling attack names and energies from within yourself to work. if there is a distinction, there isn't much of one, since its never explained what requires what as opposed to which and they look pretty much the same in practice.

and even if magic is separate, Beerus sealed the Old Kai away with a sealing spell, which is similar to the Evil Containment wave, which ki-users can do, so thats a second thing that both ki-users and magic users can do, if they are separate: seal people or things away.

next up lets take a look at Potara Earrings: they can't possibly be ki based right? they are an item and ki requires a body to use, but magic can be put into things like the Power Pole. BUT. the fusion dance IS ki based since I doubt Goten or Trunks can use magic. so, that is another thing that both ki and magic can do.

furthermore both Puar and Oolong can shapeshift using magic, which is changing forms. Super saiyans can change into various forms as well, not for disguise of course, but clearly ki is capable of altering ones body, with Roshi being able to bulk up, Freeza being able to change forms, and furthermore Oolong never masters shpaeshifting and can do only so up to five minutes while Puar can do indefinitely, so not much different from a ki based transformation like super saiyan which has similar principles of being only used for a limited until you train enough to use it indefinitely. so thats another thing that both ki and magic can do.

and both the matter materialization spell and one of freezas ki blasts involves firing a ray from your finger. the difference is the effect: one manipulates matter one way (tearing it apart) one manipulates matter another (reforming it). these effects are opposite, but if the gesture is the same, with no clear difference in the energy used, then the only difference is the knowledge of how that energy is being used. so both magic and ki use beams to do things, that is also another similarity between the two.

oh but if they are the same, wouldn't they not NEED separate techniques to do the same thing? well then I ask you in turn: wouldn't you not need separate technique names for Kamehameha, Galick Gun or Final Flash? they're all just beams, destructo Disc or Tri Beam cannon make sense they're different but why three names for firing a beam? why two names for teleportation? why two methods of fusion? why more than one way to seal away stuff? Dragon Ball is a little redundant like that.

I find it much more believable that any distinction between magic and ki is false and that different techniques are just being redundant rather than any actual difference, because Dragon Ball has often shown to be needlessly redundant.

Flying and taking a train are both methods of travel that accomplish the same goal of bringing people where they want to go. They use entirely different mechanics to do it. Just because people can use magic to do things similar to ki feats and vice versa doesnt make them the same. Or a better example, solar power versus steam generators. Both produce energy, both work along incredibly different lines.

[Lord Raziere]

Flying and taking a train are both methods of travel that accomplish the same goal of bringing people where they want to go. They use entirely different mechanics to do it. Just because people can use magic to do things similar to ki feats and vice versa doesnt make them the same. Or a better example, solar power versus steam generators. Both produce energy, both work along incredibly different lines.

ah but, those do different things, one flies the other doesn't, and one harnesses steam the other the sun, they are not similar at all. Dragon Ball is all about needless redundancy when it is not needed, and not about any functional difference

and I can prove it one word: Goten.

I rest my case.

[Reddish Mage]

...... so Zatanna vs Scarlett Witch? Or Electro vs Static Shock (I guess Black Lightning can rumble in that too)

I think you need to give Zatanna vs. Scarlet Witch to Zatanna hands down. She DC’s premier magic user and I assume she is fighting normal, sane, canon Scarlett Witch. Of course Scarlett Witch has moments where she can alter all reality with a thought, but not when she’s fully awake, in control of herself, and sane. Scarlett Witch is Universe+ in House of M but never really had control over that level of power.

Zatanna can time travel, can destroy foes across time and space...and even destroyed Universe+ foes. Zatanna is supposedly better than Constantine. Constantine did universe altering magic to hide the universe from Darkseid and convince Darkseid he already destroyed that universe. Zatanna has also been called the strongest of the Justice League.

Of course, both are human level (Zatanna is comic version of human with super martial art ability but still), so if you ran the scenario a thousand times both would get their wins in, but Zatanna just has more ways of winning and is overall more impressive.

By the way, of all the stuff I said about Superman, he is not normally in the Universe+ category (however, canon Superman has knocked out non-canon versions of him who are). Versions of Superman definitely are...having shattered and destroyed universes, punched holes in reality, and damaged reality with punches, but not canon Superman to my knowledge. However, he might be a match against universe+ foes even if he’s weak in strength since canon Superman and alt version with the same power level has some other advantages like he’s survived the impossible in dozens of ways (black holes, supernova, all of reality being destroyed, getting erased from existence, being tossed into a red sun, kryptonite poisoning). Also Superman has incredible stamina, he bench pressed the weight of the earth for 3 days straight and could keep going. The guy doesn’t normally tire. Finally, Superman’s speed is time travel, cross-the-universe and keep up with reverse-flash good.

I really don’t know Electro vs. Static Shock, but everyone online says Electro (Marvel) has more raw power and I surmise that means neither are cosmic level. So DC tends to have the most broken OP examples of power demonstration...but not necessarily with every character.


EDIT: Before anyone mentions Zatanna has to speak her spells backwards...she doesn’t. A recent comic had her reunite with her father and ask him why he taught her to speak spells backwards when either of them can just will reality to change (explicitly all tools props and words are said to be unnecessary) and he gives this “to hide our nature from people” explanation. Scarlet Witch can alter reality with a thought too, doesn’t really need the hand gestures she’s so fond of.

[Traab]

ah but, those do different things, one flies the other doesn't, and one harnesses steam the other the sun, they are not similar at all. Dragon Ball is all about needless redundancy when it is not needed, and not about any functional difference

and I can prove it one word: Goten.

I rest my case.

Thats right, they do different things to accomplish the same goal. Both get you from A to B, they do so with very very different mechanics. Same for power generation. Both generate power, both work in very very different ways. So saying, "Well this guy used ki to do something nearly identical to a magic spell, they must be the same" doesnt make it true.

[Lord Raziere]

Thats right, they do different things to accomplish the same goal. Both get you from A to B, they do so with very very different mechanics. Same for power generation. Both generate power, both work in very very different ways. So saying, "Well this guy used ki to do something nearly identical to a magic spell, they must be the same" doesnt make it true.

No, they do different things to accomplish different things. one goes on the ground, one flies. the end goal is irrelevant, because a train and a plane are not comparable traveling methods, but IT and IM are equally fast. you can't compare them, trains can't fly, but both teleportation methods have similar mobility.

[Keltest]

No, they do different things to accomplish different things. one goes on the ground, one flies. the end goal is irrelevant, because a train and a plane are not comparable traveling methods, but IT and IM are equally fast. you can't compare them, trains can't fly, but both teleportation methods have similar mobility.

Im sorry, but that's silly. Of course we can compare them, theyre accomplishing the same goal: moving something from point A to point B. The fact that they do so in different ways is entirely the point, because the end result is the same even though the method is different.

[Lord Raziere]

Im sorry, but that's silly. Of course we can compare them, theyre accomplishing the same goal: moving something from point A to point B. The fact that they do so in different ways is entirely the point, because the end result is the same even though the method is different.

You can't.

A train can't take you to hawaii. but an airplane can.

teleportation in both forms can take you to the moon.

not comparable.

[Keltest]

You can't.

A train can't take you to hawaii. but an airplane can.

teleportation in both forms can take you to the moon.

not comparable.

only if by "comparable" you mean "literally identical." In fact, you compare a plane with a train in your second sentence.

[Lord Raziere]

only if by "comparable" you mean "literally identical." In fact, you compare a plane with a train in your second sentence.

Well yeah, the two teleportation techniques are literally identical. thats why they're both teleportation.

[Keltest]

Well yeah, the two teleportation techniques are literally identical. thats why they're both teleportation.

If you just look at the end result, sure. But your claim is all about not just looking at the end result, but whats going on to make it happen as well. By your own argument, if one uses magic and one uses ki, you cant compare them because they work in different ways.

[Lord Raziere]

If you just look at the end result, sure. But your claim is all about not just looking at the end result, but whats going on to make it happen as well. By your own argument, if one uses magic and one uses ki, you cant compare them because they work in different ways.

No.

they are capable of the same thing.

trains and airplanes are not. you just defining what the "same thing" is incredibly vaguely while I'm being more accurate. to be comparable, trains specifically have to fly, and trains don't fly. either all the details matter or none of them, there is no middle ground, and your ignoring that trains are not capable of the same feats as planes, but both teleportations are capable of basically the same things.

Edit: furthermore power on generation, such things are just tricks to generate the real universal energy that is electricity, so magic and ki are just different methods to generate the same energy they use, which has shown to be used in both kinds of techniques.

[Keltest]

No.

they are capable of the same thing.

trains and airplanes are not. you just defining what the "same thing" is incredibly vaguely while I'm being more accurate. to be comparable, trains specifically have to fly, and trains don't fly. either all the details matter or none of them, there is no middle ground, and your ignoring that trains are not capable of the same feats as planes, but both teleportations are capable of basically the same things.

Again, youre using comparable when you mean "literally identical." Magic teleportation and Ki teleportation work using magic and ki respectively. If the difference doesn't matter, then I can compare planes and trains and call them the same. If the difference matters, then you cant declare them to be the same thing just because the end result is the same.

[Lord Raziere]

Again, youre using comparable when you mean "literally identical." Magic teleportation and Ki teleportation work using magic and ki respectively. If the difference doesn't matter, then I can compare planes and trains and call them the same. If the difference matters, then you cant declare them to be the same thing just because the end result is the same.

No you can't. you can only compare a plane running on one fuel to another plane running on a different fuel. it doesn't change the fact that they're planes. a train is not a plane, and different tricks to produce the same electricity is not different energies.

comparing trains to planes is like comparing DBZ flight to DBZ teleportation, one gets you there much faster and crosses places you can't cross with another.

[Keltest]

No you can't. you can only compare a plane running on one fuel to another plane running on a different fuel. it doesn't change the fact that they're planes. a train is not a plane, and different tricks to produce the same electricity is not different energies.

I think youre missing the forest for the trees here. The point is that you cant use the fact that they do the same thing as proof that they are the same thing. If you want to use the fuel analogy instead of the transportation analogy, fine, whatever helps you understand it. Natural gas is not coal even if you burn both of them to fuel a generator.

[Lord Raziere]

I think youre missing the forest for the trees here. The point is that you cant use the fact that they do the same thing as proof that they are the same thing. If you want to use the fuel analogy instead of the transportation analogy, fine, whatever helps you understand it. Natural gas is not coal even if you burn both of them to fuel a generator.

Yes but the energy generated is still freaking electricity and thats what makes lightbulbs light things up. so in the end, its still different METHODS to achieve the SAME ENERGY to do things.

[Keltest]

Yes but the energy generated is still freaking electricity and thats what makes lightbulbs light things up. so in the end, its still different METHODS to achieve the SAME ENERGY to do things.

In the analogy, Ki and Magic are the coal and natural gas.