OOTS #1168 - The Discussion Thread

[Particle_Man]

A room they have to leave sooner or later. And they don't know there is help coming. They may even be aware of what has happened to their bodyguards.

If you are going to take the obvious rule-of-funny moment seriously, then the problem here is not why they shut this proposal down. It's why the bearded guy dared to suggest it in the first place.

Grey Wolf

If that were true, they are still dwarves. Shouldn’t they prefer to go down fighting because of the bet?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Actually, noticing that someone is dominated is simply a DC 15 Sense Motive check. Meaning it can even be done untrained, with more than a 1 in 4 chance of succeeding, better with some Wisdom bonus.

And that's assuming the DM doesn't just let you use a Take 10 (or Take 20, if untrained) to keep the game moving.

[Lord Torath]

We don't have time to discuss this in committee!

I am not a committee!

I understood that reference!

This council is meeting around the remains of one of their oldest and most powerful enemies. That's pretty badass. And mean-spirited.

Good catch!

I like the drool coming out of one of the Dominated counselor's mouth. Nice touch!

Thanks, Rich!

[Jasdoif]

Am I the only one who didn't think of anything particular in current politics?

You were not.

I am not a committee!

Aww.

---

More generally, this scenario is reflective of any group that's intended to make decisions. If it's easy to get decisions postponed, whoever wants to maintain the status quo has an advantage in postponing decisions rather than actually making the case for positions; conversely, when a majority is sufficient for anything, then attaining a majority through external means is more efficient than actually making the case for positions. Finding the middle ground where rational debate is optimal is...let's say, an ongoing effort for civilization.

And looking into abuses after the fact would make for a good compromise...if the opportunity to reverse the results of the decision was available. And as explicitly mentioned in the comic, they don't yet know that the world could be destroyed by this vote. (On one hand, I think it'd be better to know the item on a single-item agenda before making motions...on the other hand, it sounds like they haven't done anything with such scope before, and don't expect it now. I mean, it's not like I check every time I post whether a life-or-death decision will be made based on whether or not someone quotes the late Carrie Fisher....)

[Squire Doodad]

I am not a committee!

I could be, but the Dwarves took away my cloning machine.

[Fish]

Genuine question, devoid of snark--is there a reason to quibble over this, beyond pedantry?

Nope.

Remember kids, words always have only one meaning, decided upon by Zimmerwald. Anyone using alternate definitions or referencing contradictory connotations that arose separately from the sanctioned meaning are therefore wrong.

P.S. This post was not devoid of snark, until and unless Zimmerwald redefines the term such that it does contain said snark.

[Gorm_the_DBA]

If slightly more than 1/2 the council is dominated, how is a resolution to delay going to pass at all?

Dwarven Filibuster, obviously.

[Wysper]

Heh, could be worse. It could be effective bureaucracies that are universal.

Effective bureaucracy is an oxymoron

[Fyraltari]

It doesn't make sense, but it happens all the time in real life, so ...

Totally plausible.

Obvious danger -> admitting to this obvious danger isn't politically opportune at this moment -> obvious danger is denied until it is much too late

I think guy who says he looks forward to the possibility of being proven wrong must have realized everyone else is insane and is afraid of speaking up any more - also a thing that happens. Or, of course, he is only a very tiny bit cleverer than everyone else and didn't realize the full implications of the domination problem he pointed out.

After what I had to witness in real life, I am really careful with accusing authors of giving their characters the idiot ball. There truly is no limit to human stupidity. Doubly so if people form a group. Lots of people who are intelligent on their own become utter idiots while inside a group of idiots, because saying the obvious truth would lose them the approval of everyone else. To the point of convincing themselves the idiotic point of view is actually true because they cannot endure the cognitive dissonance of saying one thing and believing another.


So, yeah. I have no complaints about the storytelling here. I rather like the parody.

Yes, I know, I said that attitude didn’t make sense, not that it was implausible. Most real-life stuff doesn’t.

Yep, even the barriers that exist almost certainly date back to the distant past when the council actually mattered.

Given how unimportant the council is considered, even by its members, the defenses are implausibly TOUGH if anything is off about this.

With defenses this good, why didn't someone currently important (like the parliament) take over the council of clans meeting area for themselves and make the council meet in a closet somewhere?

The actual realism/verisimilitude question shouldn't be, "Why are the defenses so porous?", it should be, "Why are the defenses anything more than the personal bodyguards that the attendees brought? What in the world made someone decide to give an archaic and unimportant group defenses like that?"

Obviously, because without the defenses, the story wouldn't work right, but the problem has never been that the defenses aren't as good as they should be.

The likeliest explanations is that the barriers could not be moved and that the parliaments has better defenses now that it exists. Such as High-level combatants that could adapt to an attack designed around their defenses.

No, he is saying they'll go to their (the gods') respective realms. Which for dwarves is Hel's.



That's the charicative way to look at it. I think he knows about the bet, and just doesn't care, since presumably not many dwarves worhip him. And he has not done the math, so he doesn't realise just how much power that'll give Hel, which is the only thing that makes him hesitate.

In any case, I could say similar things about a bunch of other gods. My broader point is that pining this all on Dvalin is a bit much, given how many other full gods and demigods had the chance to fix this and did not. The only one that comes out looking half-decent is Hermod.

Grey Wolf

Hel specifically points him out as someone who might change his vote in light of her revelation. Your opinion that he would do so based solely on his concern for who leads the Pantheon rather than the dwarven souls is as arbitrary as the opposing one. However I find it more likely that Heimdall forgot about the Bet, rather than him not realizing what giving an entire race to Hel means.

Also Iounn votes on the basis of ‘‘what Hel said was like totally lame’’ so Hermod got company, I would say.

[Rrmcklin]

Am I the only one who didn't think of anything particular in current politics? Like you said, ineffective bureaucracy is universal; this parallel could be applied to any point in time if you squint enough.

My thoughts as well. Honestly, I'm not actually sure how I feel about this.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

If that were true, they are still dwarves. Shouldn’t they prefer to go down fighting because of the bet?

They're dwarven politicians. Their field of battle is politics. If they get killed while being politicians, for being politicians, they still avoid Hel, as per Rich's examples.

While if they try to run away, and die, that'd be a dishonorable death. So they stay, and fight with the tools at their disposal (poorly, I'll grant you, but they don't get points for competency).

Grey Wolf

[Reboot]

Get your levels in Lawyer first, + Helm of Opposite Alignment = DONE!

Doesn't work. The Lawyer class has a "Lawful (Any)" alignment restriction. The Helm would make you Chaotic and cause the loss of all class-related powers.

[Kantaki]

(poorly, I'll grant you, but they don't get points for competency).

Grey Wolf

Well, duh.
That's kind of inherent with the system the dwarves are dying under.
If anything incompetence* is what gets rewarded.

*Or at least being not competent enough. Small difference.

[Ruck]

My first thought on reading this was 'this must be what Daredevil's D&D class is.'

https://twitter.com/Pale_0ntologist/...789645824?s=19

[JumboWheat01]

Besides, Elan, how could you let that big, squirmy bag of EXP go? Everyone could always use more levels!

[Rogar Demonblud]

I just realized there's a very simple way to delay this vote indefinitely.

1. break out several kegs of Fortified Skullwhomper Ale

2. start counting down from 100

Not even dwarves will be standing after about 80.

[eilandesq]

If slightly more than 1/2 the council is dominated, how is a resolution to delay going to pass at all?

That said, this is kind of weird, that the council is just going along with it.

It wouldn't pass--but seeing all the vampire dominated ones vote in concert with swirly eyes might convince them to try something desperate to stop any further votes.

Spoiler

Show

Say, like all of the non-dominated dwarves attacking the dominated ones and immediately being petrified until the meeting is adjourned as a result. If the quorum requirement for a valid vote is high enough, that might be enough to completely prevent any binding vote (and Dvalin--having seen all of this go down--*might* not be enough of a stubborn fool to insist on honoring the Council's vote at this point.

[Fyraltari]

I just realized there's a very simple way to delay this vote indefinitely.

1. break out several kegs of Fortified Skullwhomper Ale

2. start counting down from 100

Not even dwarves will be standing after about 80.

I think the thralls would obey the orders not to drink. If they fail their new saving throw, that is.

[BaronOfHell]

I am a little slow to get this strip, but as I understand it, the notion to postpone the vote would always have been down voted since this strip established that the bad guys have a majority in voting. While the two last frames are simply hilarious.

Is that also how you guys understood it, or am I getting it wrong?

[zimmerwald1915]

Genuine question, devoid of snark--is there a reason to quibble over this, beyond pedantry?

Of course pedantry is its own reward, but there is an actual substantive reason. First of all, the propaganda that bureaucracy is an inefficient imposition is historically and empirically untrue. Bureaucracy is a practical necessity for projects above a certain size, which is why it is practically ubiquitous today, both in the private and public sectors. Second, despite this, the propaganda is politically useful for a certain project that shall go unnamed. Third, given the above, and that experientially bureaucracies can in fact be unpleasant to deal with, bureaucracy and the things memetically associated with it, namely rigidity and lack of responsiveness to special circumstances, have become unpopular. So calling things that are not bureaucracies bureaucratic is just another way of calling them a bad thing you don't like. Not only is it sloppy language, it exposes things we might otherwise approve of to attacks in the same vein as attacks on the bureaucracy. And that can be dangerous.

[Kish]

I am a little slow to get this strip, but as I understand it, the notion to postpone the vote would always have been down voted since this strip established that the bad guys have a majority in voting. While the two last frames are simply hilarious.

Is that also how you guys understood it, or am I getting it wrong?

The motion to postpone the vote would have passed unanimously or close to it, because the vampires have dominated thralls who have been instructed to "vote yes on the issue proposed."

[Fyraltari]

The motion to postpone the vote would have passed unanimously or close to it, because the vampires have dominated thralls who have been instructed to "vote yes on the issue proposed."

The main issue proposed.

[Saluriel]

{Scrubbed}

[Fyraltari]

Saluriel, you may not be aware that discussing real-world politics here is forbidden by the Forum Rules, most likely to keep our rampant collective insanity at a tolerable level for everyone. Thank you.

[Sloanzilla]

This council is meeting around the remains of one of their oldest and most powerful ennemies. That's pretty badass. And mean-spirited.

This deserves more credit than it received

[Kantaki]

Saluriel, you may not be aware that discussing real-world politics here is forbidden by the Forum Rules, most likely to keep out rampant collective insanity at a tolerable level for everyone.

Probably.
Jokes on them though.
The rules don't keep our crazy at low levels, they just make us focus on other topics.

[Fyraltari]

Good catch!

This deserves more credit than it received

Thank you both!

[warmachine]

If the Speaker had any sense, he'd order a guard to enter the inner chamber, even if he's dominated, then declare use of advisors in council meetings an illegal violation of convention, because no else has one, and order the guard to evict the non-council member. With luck, that might count as dwarven law and the vampire won't have time to get the ruling overthrown whilst being evicted and not violating dwarven law. If the guard ignores orders, immediately adjourn the meeting as disloyal guards suggest an imminent coup.

[5crownik007]

"I for one look forward to being proven wrong."
Now that is a real person, we should all aspire to be like that guy.

[Peelee]

If the Speaker had any sense, he'd order a guard to enter the inner chamber, even if he's dominated, then declare use of advisors in council meetings an illegal violation of convention, because no else has one, and order the guard to evict the non-council member. With luck, that might count as dwarven law and the vampire won't have time to get the ruling overthrown whilst being evicted and not violating dwarven law. If the guard ignores orders, immediately adjourn the meeting as disloyal guards suggest an imminent coup.

Wild guess here, but I'd say spontaneously making up laws probably isn't in their legal system. Or, if it is, it'd go the other way.