General Anime/Manga Discussion 16: In Another Thread With My Smartphone

[Rater202]

Currently, he's just got a department of people. He throws out ideas and outlines, they write on it, he approves what they like, and then it gets published.

I think the Super Anime is more "canon" than the Super Manga becuase Toriyama had more direct oversite over it, but ultimately what it is that we have several overlapping timelines that are all equally "canon" despite them not being fully in continuity with each other.

Not to mention the "Online-Heroes-Xenoverse" stuff which seems to be its own complete background canon that takes from every other part of the franchise.

Honestly, at this point, I just want more Kale. Kale's version of Super Saiyan 2 is completly different from the normal version, being a permanent upgrade to her Legendary Super Saiyan form. Last time we saw her officially, she and Caulifla were planning to go train to get Super Saiyan 3.

I want to know what Kale's Sper Saiyan 3 is.

[GloatingSwine]

Well yeah, Toriyama was thoroughly done with Dragonball after the original manga ended, he was just so disgusted by Dragonball Evolution he had to write a new movie to wash the taste away.

So it makes sense he's reasonably hands off with the whole thing now.

[Rater202]

He has been the head writer for Battle of Gods, Ressurection F, Broly, and the upcoming Super Hero.

And Superhero seems to be actually moving the timeline up, considering the fact that we have End of Z Pan instead of baby Pan.

But yeah. Mostly he's just an ide guy at this point.

[Mechalich]

So, I watched all of Netflix's live-action Cowboy Bebop adaptation and I feel like this is probably the right thread for a review. So...

It's fine, actually. Good, not great, would watch again. At the same time it is very much not an all-time genre-defying classic in the vein of the original.

I haven't watched the original in many years and it's fairly vague in memory and I think that helped temper expectations, which is important, because the Netflix show is very much not highbrow. Instead, it's a trimmed down slick, highly stylized, retro-future gangster drama with lots of gunplay and martial arts that reminded me more of John Wick 2 and 3 more than anything else. The action is sleek, the characters are fun and have good byplay, the actors are sizzling, and the show is paced effectively. Examined on its own terms, it's a success.

There are, of course, substantial story deviations. The overall backdrop has been greatly changed and the presence of the Syndicate is much more tightly bound to the overall story and Vicious and Julia are both massively expanded as characters. The central plot is a fairly straightforward gangster drama as a result, but I feel that it works, in part because of excellent performances all around. The cast is a real strength of the show and while everyone is playing what might be described as a 'high energy version' of their anime inspirations this helps cover for the overall weaker vibe of the live action series and the absence of Ed.

I can see why people would hate the show, but I really don't think it deserves it. It's fine. It's often fun. It doesn't gratuitously fail. It could have been so, so much worse.

[Rater202]

So, with the recent Trailer of Dragon Ball Super: Superhero, a general idea of the plot seems to be clear.

"Remnants of the Red Ribbon Army create two androids to take revenge on Son Goku and his friends, Gohan takes center stage as the main hero."

...I don't know if I should be excited that Gohan gets to be cool again or worried that this is just gonna be a cheap rehash of the Android Saga.

Like, if it's just using the basic concept as a thematic connection as a tie to the last time Gohan was prominent that's one thing... But Gohan's shown wearing the same outfit he wore when he fought Cell as a kid.

Either way, it's got an April release date in Japan.

[Lord Raziere]

So, with the recent Trailer of Dragon Ball Super: Superhero, a general idea of the plot seems to be clear.

"Remnants of the Red Ribbon Army create two androids to take revenge on Son Goku and his friends, Gohan takes center stage as the main hero."

...I don't know if I should be excited that Gohan gets to be cool again or worried that this is just gonna be a cheap rehash of the Android Saga.

Like, if it's just using the basic concept as a thematic connection as a tie to the last time Gohan was prominent that's one thing... But Gohan's shown wearing the same outfit he wore when he fought Cell as a kid.

Either way, it's got an April release date in Japan.

*glances at all the videogames that do nothing but repeat the DBZ stuff over and over again*

Yeah....the likelihood of it being a cheap rehash is higher than I would like. Shame. Here's tentatively hoping that we're not getting Cell....3.0 (Android 21 is Cell 2.0, lets be real) though considering that 21 has shown up in the Kakarot game and she was real popular, and has a lore connection to Gero......oh.

we might be getting Android 21 as Cell 2.0 for this. she has shown up in DB:Kakarot and thus isn't a one-off thing, this might be a movie to cement her status into canon for everyone. those two androids we see might just be the 17 and 18 of this.

[Rater202]

*glances at all the videogames that do nothing but repeat the DBZ stuff over and over again*

Yeah....the likelihood of it being a cheap rehash is higher than I would like. Shame. Here's tentatively hoping that we're not getting Cell....3.0 (Android 21 is Cell 2.0, lets be real) though considering that 21 has shown up in the Kakarot game and she was real popular, and has a lore connection to Gero......oh.

we might be getting Android 21 as Cell 2.0 for this. she has shown up in DB:Kakarot and thus isn't a one-off thing, this might be a movie to cement her status into canon for everyone.

Toriyama did say he'd find some way to work her into the official story if enough people liked her and... She's pretty popular.

But the trailers seem to be focusing on a new scientist and the androids we've seen so far have a different Naming scheme from Gero's models.

the New Scientist seems to be named Dr. Hedo and his androids are called Gamma 1 and Gamma 2.

I'm looking into some promotional materials... Apparently, the Red Ribbon Army had a front company called Red Pharmecuticles and it's just been running unhindered all this time despite the main army being destroyed.

There's also a character who I assume is the new head of the Army and he looks very similar to commander Red. I'm wondering if he's related and blames Goku for Commander Red's death.

I mean, it's not like anyone had time to note that Staff Officer Black shot commander Red. Everyone else was too busy being slaughtered by a monkey boy and then Goku killed Staff Officer Black so... Yeah. All anyone knows is that Commander Red died the day that Son Goku rampaged through the main base and killed everyone.

Promotional materials also state that Gamma 1 and Gamma 2 are the "mightiest androids" and I'm very curious as to what that means becuase we've seen some pretty fricking mighty androids across the series.

[Lord Raziere]

Promotional materials also state that Gamma 1 and Gamma 2 are the "mightiest androids" and I'm very curious as to what that means becuase we've seen some pretty fricking mighty androids across the series.

I mean its promotional material, what are they going to say in alternative? "they are the second mightiest androids" and thus imply that 17 and 18 could beat them? "mighty but not really the most powerful" androids? "sort of mighty androids"? they say the foe is the mightiest no matter what the foe actually is, for every foe. its just empty hype.

[Rater202]

Another thing I find notable is that Pan features prominently in both trailers... And it's End of Z era Pan.

They're actually moving up the timeframe.

There's no sign of Uub though, so unless they're saving him for a plot twist this is probably before the epilog proper.

...I doubt this is how it's gonna go, but I'd legitimately enjoy it if Gohan was getting his ass kicked and Pan had a "leave my Daddy alone!" moment. She's at the same age Gohan was when he had his... And is potentially a lot more powerful.

Maybe have her go Super Saiyan? All the way back in GT Perfect files it was stated that Pan had the potential to become a unique kind of super Saiyan and not a single piece of Dragon Ball media anywhere has done anything with that.

[Lord Raziere]

Yeah I'd like to see that. Pan finally getting some justice would be nice to see.

on the androids themselves, Gammas 1 and 2 both wield ray guns, which makes me think they aren't serious enemies though. every time a gun has been used in dragonball, its just been to show how useless they are. their design in general doesn't seem serious at all too, so its kind of not setting my expectations high for them specifically. Sorry to say, but these two might be joke characters. at best they are some android duo version of the Ginyu Force where they are goofy but mid-level dangerous and just there to be some early fights until the real threat arrives.

[Rater202]

Yeah I'd like to see that. Pan finally getting some justice would be nice to see.

on the androids themselves, Gammas 1 and 2 both wield ray guns, which makes me think they aren't serious enemies though. every time a gun has been used in dragonball, its just been to show how useless they are. their design in general doesn't seem serious at all too, so its kind of not setting my expectations high for them specifically. Sorry to say, but these two might be joke characters. at best they are some android duo version of the Ginyu Force where they are goofy but mid-level dangerous and just there to be some early fights until the real threat arrives.

Except for the time Sorbet shot Goku clear through the heart with a "mere laser gun" when Goku's guard was down in Rez F.

Or the two times in Dragon Ball Super where someone taking a superficial injury from a mundane bullet was used to illustrate that they were getting rusty.

[Lord Raziere]

Except for the time Sorbet shot Goku clear through the heart with a "mere laser gun" when Goku's guard was down in Rez F.

Or the two times in Dragon Ball Super where someone taking a superficial injury from a mundane bullet was used to illustrate that they were getting rusty.

I dunno, those all were suspiciously plot-convenient for the outcomes they wanted to get out of them.

[Mystic Muse]

I dunno, those all were suspiciously plot-convenient for the outcomes they wanted to get out of them.

Agreed. Particularly when baseline goku in dragonball was functionally immune to bullets.

Doesn't freaking Raditz catch a shotgun slug?

There is no feasible amount of stretching that makes guns not a threat to characters when they're not even hill busters, but a threat to them when they're, even assuming rusty, probably still planet busters.

A baseline Frieza grunt laser gun threatenjng a character who "shakes the entire universe" with his power makes so little sense from a durability perspective I don't even know where to begin.

[Rater202]

I dunno, those all were suspiciously plot-convenient for the outcomes they wanted to get out of them.

Okay, but that still raises the question: With the focus on Dr. Hedo and the Gammas in all the trailers and promotional material, what would the "real threat" even be?

I mean, Dr. Hedo is shown in materials wearing a superhero costume of his own, maybe he secretly converted himself into an android, but...

[Lord Raziere]

Okay, but that still raises the question: With the focus on Dr. Hedo and the Gammas in all the trailers and promotional material, what would the "real threat" even be?

I mean, Dr. Hedo is shown in materials wearing a superhero costume of his own, maybe he secretly converted himself into an android, but...

I mean they could be bringing back the lost art of not showing spoilers in trailers. y'know, show stuff thats cool but not the climax so that y'know, your actually surprised by it?

the real threat would be something not shown. simple. all that stuff could just be like, the initial conflict. and it leads to something more with a character that will be there but isn't in the trailer. maybe a long shot, but I'm willing to bet it.

[Rodin]

It's kind of a shame that DBZ Abridged concluded. There are so many Vegeta/Android jokes going unsaid.

[Lord Raziere]

It's kind of a shame that DBZ Abridged concluded. There are so many Vegeta/Android jokes going unsaid.

Good point. ahem:

*see Androids 13, 14 and 15*
Vegeta: Do I hear eight?

*sees Android 21*
Vegeta: Do I hear nine?

*sees Gammas 1 and 2*
Vegeta: Eleven, am I getting an Eleven right now?

*sees Gammas 1 and 2*
Vegeta: Wow, I was wrong, THIS is the grand central station of disappointment. I could at least take the two androgynous blonde twins a little seriously.

*meets Gammas 1 and 2*
Vegeta: well if it isn't Buck Rogers and Flash Gordon! what are you going to do, spout outdated lines and values at me?
Gamma 1: Zounds! We have encountered an alien Gamma-2! Be cautious there is no telling what this being from beyond Earth's terrestrial gravitic embrace is thinking!
Gamma 2: No worries Gamma 1, I'm sure his mysterious alien biology cannot stand up to our good old fashioned man (not woman)-made Science!
Vegeta:.....sigh. I miss fighting 18.

Kid Trunks: Theres no way we can fight them without Gohan!
Vegeta: WHAT!? That there is no way we need that one hit wonders help! I am Vegeta! I have Ultra Ego for Zen-Oh's sake! Gohan on the other hand has gone downhill ever since his fluke with Cell! Why would we ever need his help?
Kid Trunks: Because he was taught by-
Vegeta: Boy what did I tell you!?
Kid Trunks: *sigh* not to press the Goku button. We can totally do this, who needs Gohan!
Vegeta: Thats my boy.

*learns that it was a completely different guy than Gero*
Vegeta: Okay first Gero now these clowns, Kakarot what did you DO to these people to make these stupid toys come after us so much!?
Goku: Oh that?
*cut to Goku mercilessly slaughtering the Red Ribbon Army while something like "The Only Thing They Fear Is You" plays as music*
Goku: ah I just got a little nettled when I was kid. didn't think they'd take it so personally. we all do stupid things when we're children right?
Vegeta: Kakarot, Bulma said you killed Gero's son, along with many others
Goku: Since when did you care about other peoples lives outside your family?
Vegeta: since I learned they're the customers that pay for my gravity chamber. The money doesn't come from nowhere!

*talking to Gamma 1 and 2*
Vegeta: so can we like skip the part where we pretend your an actual threat and get to the one guy who is going to absorb you both and become the ultimate tin can for like what, the fourth time now? Fifth?
Gohan: wait, another Cell is going to show up? what makes you say that?
Vegeta: pattern recognition.
Gohan: Cell, Android 13, Agnilasa, Android 21.....crapbaskets he's right.

[Rater202]

Thought: If Dr. Hedo is building off of Dr. Gero's tech...

Would that not include his perpetual energy devices?

Which not only produce infinite energy, but have infinite output.

And are small enough to put inside a human body with no major issues.

If... If they got ahold of his tech then...

Then Couldn't the Gammas' guns have been made with that tech? nd therefore be... Actually useful against Ki users. 17 and 18's power easily dwarfed Frieza's and 17 was able to train himself up to be roughly equal to Goku in SSB at the beginning of the tournament of power.

[Lord Raziere]

Thought: If Dr. Hedo is building off of Dr. Gero's tech...

Would that not include his perpetual energy devices?

Which not only produce infinite energy, but have infinite output.

And are small enough to put inside a human body with no major issues.

If... If they got ahold of his tech then...

Then Couldn't the Gammas' guns have been made with that tech? nd therefore be... Actually useful against Ki users. 17 and 18's power easily dwarfed Frieza's and 17 was able to train himself up to be roughly equal to Goku in SSB at the beginning of the tournament of power.

Yes you have a good point.

Now watch as this great innovation in technology......is used as a cheap plot device to take Goku and Vegeta out of the action quickly so that the rest of the movie other people can fight then get destroyed by one of the other z-fighters immediately after that. and are never mentioned again. Maybe if we're lucky they might exposit about the beams from the guns somehow conveniently prevent the Senzu beans or Dende from healing them instantly rather than just forgetting those things exist entirely while Goku and Vegeta writhe in pain at the hospital.

[LaZodiac]

New chapter day!

I cannot find the My Hero thread so I'm assuming it got lost in the purge so; new chapter of My Hero, specifically I wanna talk about it.

I wanna talk about the fact that Spinner really is being manipulated and how brutally sad that is, that he just thinks of Shigaraki as a friend and he's doing this for him and no one else, and that... horrifying thought of "everyone can be somebodies hero" in connection to him, a villain, inspiring other villains. Something insidious about that that I really do love.

But any amount of talking about this chapter also has to look at the red breasted sparrow in the room and look at what we just ****ing saw of Toga's backstory here and go "yeah no nothing she's done is her fault look at this. Look at her."

You don't willingly rip your own wrist apart with your teeth if you're not someone who needs help. She didn't get any. This puts paid to basically every argument, in my head, that Toga is somehow "at fault" for what she did. Because... god. My god. There's something so genuinely disturbing about Toga's little flashback here.

[Rater202]

So I just saw a trailer for Shenmue the animation.

I am not opposed to such a thing... But the whole thing looks kind of...

Like, Shenmue is about a young man trained in the martial arts trying to avenge his father and find out why he was murdered, so it very much fits with the idea of a shonen anime... But the fight scene shown in the commercial were rather cinematic with weird special effects while the fighting in Shenmue was(other than the speed at which the protagonist masters new techniques) rather realistic and the first game at least had a very sedate and somber tone. Most of the game, assuming you went from objective to objective, is just talking to people with a significant portion at the tail end of it being just... working a job to raise money to travel to where you can get more information.

(and if you didn't rush the objectives, most of the gameplay loop is playing darts and Space Harrier. I don't see that making it into the adaption.)

I mean, the adaption is being co-produced by Adult Swim, who focus primarily on Action Anime so I can see the change in priorities but...

I see someone spinning around and the wind visibly whirling and that feels like the wrong tone.

Like, if I had to hazard a guess, the second game is more action-oriented than the first and the third game that came out a bit back even more so, and the Yakuza series(which has much more over the top fighting) is directly inspired by Shenmue so they might be backporting that into an adaption of th original material, but...

I don't know. This could just be a case of a misleading trailer.