Cantrips vs Martial 20

[SirNibbles]

I was inspired by this thread to see how easily a Wizard or Sorcerer could take down a 20th level fighter using only cantrips. (Or Barbarian, if you prefer that).

The rules for both sides:
Magic items are allowed as long as they don't mimic spells higher than 0th level or require spells higher than 0th level to create
SLAs are allowed as long as they aren't higher than 0th level
Supernatural Abilities are allowed as long as they don't mimic spells higher than 0th level
Metamagic is allowed as long as the base spell being cast is 0th level (i.e. no preparing 1st or higher level spells with metamagic reducers to be 0th level)
Both characters generated with 32-point point buy
Both characters get 75% of max HP (Fighter gets 7.5 HP, Barb gets 9, Wizard/Sorc each get 3)
The fight takes place on a flat plain surrounded by a 100 foot radius sphere of force (which extends through the ground)

Bonuses:
No metamagic
Lowest level possible Wizard/Sorcerer

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With Metamagic, I feel like it'd just be Fell Drain on DPS spells while trying to avoid getting charged or sniped.

Without Metamagic, I'm not sure.

[MisterKaws]

Twin Repeated Ocular Fell Drain Sonic Snap?

Well, at that point it's not really a level 0 spell anymore.

[StevenC21]

You realize that if you allow Metamagic, everyone is just going to use -1 Metamagic reducers to cast Wish as a cantrip, right?

[MisterKaws]

You realize that if you allow Metamagic, everyone is just going to use -1 Metamagic reducers to cast Wish as a cantrip, right?

I'd say Shadow Miracle, but that works too.

[Vizzerdrix]

Arcane thesis- launch bolt. Then use Reach twinned split ray invisable launch bolt. Stack a few more mm cost reducers for metamagic to get it back down to 0. I think this results is something like 42 arrows per casting, before cl boosts.

Use arrows that have their own innate damage increase (their are 3 or 4 metals that do this).

Boost your init with improved init a good dex (strongheart halfling is best) and a hummingbird.

For fun, invisable felldrain sculpted caltrops is nasty.

A handfull of black sand, and stick. In the hair. Good luck with that.

Felldrain snap + several bags of marbles.

[Anthrowhale]

A Violated Wounding Fell Frighten Twin Sonic Snap seems pretty potent.

The first Fell Frighten makes them Shaken. The second escalates to Frightened.

Wounding causes 1 damage/round which becomes 2/round with Twin that can only be stopped with a heal check (DC = spell save DC) or a cure spell.

Violate Spell means that half of the damage cannot be healed.

This requires a 9th level slot without metamagic reduction.

[SirNibbles]

You realize that if you allow Metamagic, everyone is just going to use -1 Metamagic reducers to cast Wish as a cantrip, right?

Updated for clarity. The intent was to only use 0th level spells. A 1st level spell reduced to 0 by metamagic doesn't count.

Either way, if metamagic is allowed it seems like a pretty easy win for the caster if they win initiative.

[Kalkra]

Magic items are allowed as long as they don't mimic spells higher than 0th level or require spells higher than 0th level to create

So can you make Wondrous Items? Because you need CL 3 for that, even if you're making a CL 1 item. If you can, then 500 Acid Splash traps.

[SirNibbles]

Dragonscale Husk Fighter shuts down all elemental damage except sonic so I don't think acid splash would be all that useful.

[Mato]

Dragonscale Husk Fighter shuts down all elemental damage except sonic so I don't think acid splash would be all that useful.

A thug fighter that spent a few rounds in a schiver is basically immune to damage and it's not like cantrips offer save-or-dies or ways to actually trap someone.

[Anthrowhale]

The Font of Life feat offers a way to resist Fell Drain.

[Gemini476]

Arcane thesis- launch bolt. Then use Reach twinned split ray invisable launch bolt. Stack a few more mm cost reducers for metamagic to get it back down to 0. I think this results is something like 42 arrows per casting, before cl boosts.

Use arrows that have their own innate damage increase (their are 3 or 4 metals that do this).

Boost your init with improved init a good dex (strongheart halfling is best) and a hummingbird.

For fun, invisable felldrain sculpted caltrops is nasty.

A handfull of black sand, and stick. In the hair. Good luck with that.

Felldrain snap + several bags of marbles.

For Launch Bolt, remember that it doesn't care about size. Colossal Bolts are 6d6 (21) damage each, compared to the 1d8 (4.5) of Medium ones. Getting them enchanted to +5 is "free", in that it doesn't have prerequisite spells, as is Spell Storing. As for the Spell to Store, well, stack as much metamagic as you can while keeping it below level 4 - I'd maybe recommend Fell Drain Slash Tongue since that's typeless damage.

Of course, the issue with this is that the Fighter presumably has +5 mithril armor and shield as well as a +5 Cloak of Resistance. If the fighter is optimized to counter Launch Bolt, they'd have an AC of 34 while the Wizard only has +19ish to hit and thus only a 30% hit rate. Twinned Split Ray only does four copies of the spell, so you probably want to replace Reach with Ocular Spell to make that eight copies.

At a 30% hit rate, we can expect to do just 50.4 damage. The 20th-level Fighter has 150hp at 10 CON, so your rounds-to-kill (since Ocular Spell is a one-time deal) are 5.

The Fighter, meanwhile, probably realizes that without Rings of Protection you only have, like, AC14 maybe unless you want to risk the failure chance? With 18 Strength, a +5 Greatsword and Greater Weapon Focus, their Full Attack with -13/+26 Power Attack averages 147.31 damage. You have 140 hp if you have 18 CON, which you probably don't.

Since the battlefield is a 100ft radius, the Fighter can catch up to you (given constant charges on their part and move+spells on yours) in at most three-and-a-half rounds. The Wizard is very dead in this simple version of the scenario.


Now, if you allow Chain Spell to work with rays (which is really iffy and arguably not rules-legal) then I think you're shooting 168 bolts for 1,058 average damage. The Fighter is very dead.
And also you're metamagicing a somewhat broken 0th-level spell into a really high spell slot, so, well.

[Heavenblade]

If you include pathfinder, you could take a mesmerist with the eclipse spell (+0 metamagic feat), 1 metamagic reducer for the shadow's grasp feat, the restriction and sluggishness bold stares. you didn't kill him, but he is entangled, in darkness, with his speed reduced. from here, you can just snipe at him with a cantrip until he dies.

[liquidformat]

The one issue I see for the wizard, is most of the level reducing feats are focused on one specific spell, so in this thought experiment if you are restricted to using only 0 level spells before feats and magic items (which rules out abuse for things like wish) then the wizard except for conjuration specialists has no way to deal with a charging martial. Which means the wizard must kill the martial in one hit or dies...

[SirNibbles]

The one issue I see for the wizard, is most of the level reducing feats are focused on one specific spell, so in this thought experiment if you are restricted to using only 0 level spells before feats and magic items (which rules out abuse for things like wish) then the wizard except for conjuration specialists has no way to deal with a charging martial. Which means the wizard must kill the martial in one hit or dies...

As long as the martial doesn't have some way to fly, Caltrops will stop a charge. Also, breaking line of sight by using smoke or something similar will prevent charging.

[heavyfuel]

the wizard except for conjuration specialists has no way to deal with a charging martial. Which means the wizard must kill the martial in one hit or dies...

Even Abrupt Jaunt can't deal with archers since it can only dodge one arrow per round.

[AnimeTheCat]

As long as the martial doesn't have some way to fly, Caltrops will stop a charge. Also, breaking line of sight by using smoke or something similar will prevent charging.

That won't, however, stop the same character from running. Especially on flat, open terrain. Just angle to the side around or beside the caltrops/smoke so you don't have to run through difficult terrain or where you can't see. Wearing medium armor, a human can run 120 feet in one round (so mithral plate). You forfeit your dex bonus to AC (but this likely isn't much anyway), but you've crossed the entire field in a single full-round action.

Just wanted to say that is all. 100 feet is a pretty tight playing field when you consider that.

[liquidformat]

As long as the martial doesn't have some way to fly, Caltrops will stop a charge. Also, breaking line of sight by using smoke or something similar will prevent charging.

We never specified race so building a dragon born with wings or raptoran clears that up quite easily. For the caltrops specifically leap attack feat makes them moot. Also having any character with hips will end up being quite deadly for the wizard. In this case I believe your only option for smoke is Smokestick which if I am reading correctly takes at least a standard action maybe a full round action if you are using flint and steel (pretty sure doing so will cause aoo) so that might be an issue. Also since magically enhanced sight is more or less out unless you are pulling prcs or races to get things like blindsight smoke is a double edged sword that is probably more in the martial's favor as level 0 aoes few and far between.

All together the question comes down to, one can the wizard win initiative, and two can the wizard one shot the martial. Winning initiative is a toss up and I am hesitant to believe the wizard can one shot the martial with a cantrip.

Twin Repeated Ocular Fell Drain Sonic Snap, nope, four negative levels +4 sonic damage max.

As Gemini476 points out for launch bolt, this probably isn't a winning strategy until you start going into some hardcore stacking of metamagic. However, in this case with only one target I don't think chain spell actually works based on my reading of the spell you have to have 2 or more targets to use it? (might be misunderstanding something) Also adding split ray halves all your damage so it gives you more chances to hit but less over all damage so not sure if you are really gaining much by adding it in...

[Gemini476]

You're going to be at most 200 feet away from eachother at the start. Assuming that the Fighter has 30ft base speed, they can run that distance in two rounds with light encumberance, three in medium encumbrance, and three-and-a-half with heavy encumbrance. When they become adjacent (or a bit before that, with some reach weapons), the Wizard had better kill them in one shot or else have some method to survive a Full Attack.

So that's your time limit, I guess. Three rounds in the worst case scenario for the melee Fighter. (Less so for the archer, of course, who misses out on Power Attack but also gets a bunch of attacks in while the others try to close the distance.)

I suppose there's also the curious case of the lightly encumbered Run+Dash Fighter, who runs 175ft in one round and then gets to charge or move+standard action on the second. Pounce isn't really easily accessible to single-classed Fighters, though, so it's more of a worry with Barbarians. (But given the Force Wall, beware the Dungeon Crasher.)


Looking further into things, I guess the Launch Bolt strategy just superbly backfires in the face of the Dragonwrought Kobold's Infinite Deflection+Snatch Arrows. That wizened old dragon-monk will just throw them all back at you, although I suspect that the DEX 25 requirement would require some horrific template abuse given the age categories and all.

[Vizzerdrix]

Sculpt spell caltrops will fill far more of the arena than can be jumped over. Any number of meta magic can make such a large area too dangerous to traverse. Cloudy conjuration comes to mind.

Shapesand can make structures. Now the fighter has to assault a fortress that is only ever a standard action away from being repaired. A tiny fortress but still a fortress.

Race is a circle arguement. Your flying martial cant touch a burrowing caster, etc, etc.

[heavyfuel]

Sculpt spell caltrops will fill far more of the arena than can be jumped over. Any number of meta magic can make such a large area too dangerous to traverse. Cloudy conjuration comes to mind.

Shapesand can make structures. Now the fighter has to assault a fortress that is only ever a standard action away from being repaired. A tiny fortress but still a fortress.

Race is a circle arguement. Your flying martial cant touch a burrowing caster, etc, etc.

You mean all the 35ft you can cover with it before it's out of spell range? I'm sure a fighter 20 will have great difficulty jumping 30ft. blue text isn't really necessary, is it?

Shapesand is a stupid item, but even if we allow it, the argument here is also a circle. Anything your wizard can create out of shapesand, so can the fighter. Create two fortress, and we have a stalemate, which mean a victory for the Fighter, since the point is "How easily could the caster take down the mundane". If you just hide from each other, then no one takes anybody down, which means caster loses cannot, in fact, take down the mundane.

[ben-zayb]

I mean, casters only have so much cantrip spell slots or spells per day. Can we use higher level spell slots? If so, that also opens up Reserve feats.

[Vizzerdrix]

You mean all the 35ft you can cover with it before it's out of spell range? I'm sure a fighter 20 will have great difficulty jumping 30ft. blue text isn't really necessary, is it?

Shapesand is a stupid item, but even if we allow it, the argument here is also a circle. Anything your wizard can create out of shapesand, so can the fighter. Create two fortress, and we have a stalemate, which mean a victory for the Fighter, since the point is "How easily could the caster take down the mundane". If you just hide from each other, then no one takes anybody down, which means caster loses cannot, in fact, take down the mundane.

1: here is a link. You can go read what can be done with caltrops. http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?top...74932#msg74932

2: what you are and aren't willing to allow isn't part of this. Keep your house rules at your own table.

3: Far from circular, unless the theory martial can invest in wis to the same degree as a caster. Without that, the martial will never be able to maintain control over enough sand to make more than a towershield at best.

[liquidformat]

Sculpt spell caltrops will fill far more of the arena than can be jumped over. Any number of meta magic can make such a large area too dangerous to traverse. Cloudy conjuration comes to mind.

Shapesand can make structures. Now the fighter has to assault a fortress that is only ever a standard action away from being repaired. A tiny fortress but still a fortress.

Race is a circle arguement. Your flying martial cant touch a burrowing caster, etc, etc.

Abusing caltrops is a decent idea, though not sure how much bang you will get out of it. For example any marital with a backup bow makes filling the stage with uber caltrops moot...

Shapesand is straight out unless you expect the martial to sit around and wait the 20+ min for you to create it. Similarly once broken shapesand takes dc minutes to repair so it isn't exactly the godly end all be all you are claiming. The martial will just walk over and take his aoos while you are attempting your 30min castle construction...

Not clear on multiclassing, race, template, or prc restrictions from OP but I would probably start with barbarian 2 to pickup pounce and improved trip, and wolf berserker, then into dungeon crasher fighter with knockdown, power attack, leap attack, and shock trooper as a decent start...

[heavyfuel]

1: here is a link. You can go read what can be done with caltrops. http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?top...74932#msg74932

3: Far from circular, unless the theory martial can invest in wis to the same degree as a caster. Without that, the martial will never be able to maintain control over enough sand to make more than a towershield at best.

Caltrops are still bound to Close range and 20 rounds of duration. These can be worked with metamagic, but give the fighter a bow or a tower shield (so he can wait it out) or ranks in Autohypnosis or healing (Martial Study / Combat Vigor / Martial Stance / Draconic Aura) and he couldn't care less about your caltrops

Having a smaller fort than yours because of slightly lower Wis is besides the point. You'll still end up in a stalemate which is a Fighter victory,

[SirNibbles]

You mean all the 35ft you can cover with it before it's out of spell range? I'm sure a fighter 20 will have great difficulty jumping 30ft. blue text isn't really necessary, is it?

Shapesand is a stupid item, but even if we allow it, the argument here is also a circle. Anything your wizard can create out of shapesand, so can the fighter. Create two fortress, and we have a stalemate, which mean a victory for the Fighter, since the point is "How easily could the caster take down the mundane". If you just hide from each other, then no one takes anybody down, which means caster loses cannot, in fact, take down the mundane.

Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)

20*5/2 = 50. 50+25 = 75.
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I agree that if you add in certain things like magical locations which allow you to gain full damage immunity, it becomes a bit silly, especially since both sides can do it. I don't think that using shapesand to create some cover would be completely unreasonable.

[heavyfuel]

Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)

20*5/2 = 50. 50+25 = 75.
__

I agree that if you add in certain things like magical locations which allow you to gain full damage immunity, it becomes a bit silly, especially since both sides can do it. I don't think that using shapesand to create some cover would be completely unreasonable.

You're right. I suck at math. But the point still stands. This fighter should definitely fight using ranged weapons. He shouldn't care a bit about caltrops because he shouldn't ever move. I'm thinking Throwing Weapons since they can easily kill the Wizard in a single full-attack or single crit. As soon as the Wizard approaches the fighter (which is necessary for anything other than Long range spells), he full attacks (or uses his readied action).

Use shapesand to gain full cover, and the fighter wins by default.

[liquidformat]

I still don't think shapesand is a viable option unless you are given a lot of prep time...

[Gemini476]

One issue with shapesand is, well, counter-builds. Much like Launch Bolt gets beaten by infinite snatch arrows and caltrops by, well, ordinary arrows, shapesand has the issue of "hey, what if the Fighter has as much Wisdom as you do and wrests control of it from you?"

To succeed in overcoming the Fighter 20, you need to be able to do at least two things so that the Fighter can't be built to counter all of them simultaneously. Preferably you have two kill options, so they don't just build to counter Launch Bolts and then slowly wade through your low-damage caltrops like they're the Terminator.


Come think of it, here's an issue: rather than worrying about how the Fighter can kill the Wizard, is it possible to build a defensive-only Fighter that the Wizard simply can't kill? A stalemate is a victory for the Fighter in this case, since the question is "can a Wizard kill a Fighter 20 with only cantrips, and if so how low level".I talked up that Dragonwrought Snatch Arrows thing because it kills the Wizard, but they could also just be an ordinary Fighter with Spinning Defense and be immune to arrows after their first turn. That takes four feats and 13 INT/DEX (Combat Expertise, IUS, Deflect Arrows, Spinning Defense), so they've got plenty to spare for other degenerate defensive strategies. This does mean that they have to win initiative, though, so perhaps that's exploitable.

Caltrops is entirely neutralized by simply moving at half speed. For example, by 5-foot stepping while Full Defense stick-twirling.

If they're a Warforged, they're immune to Energy Drain and thus Fell Drain isn't an issue. Also, they don't need to sleep so they can just spin away with that polearm forever.

If you don't have to attack, the Wizard being in a fort doesn't matter. The Fighter being in a fort kind of does, but Shapesand's a fool's game when either side could collapse it.

A twentieth-level Wizard has 60-70 spell slots. Is that enough to be able to kill a full-health Fighter in one day? Sixty unmetamagiced Rays of Frost is 180 damage, but averages 120 and the Fighter has 150hp before CON. STR is a dump stat and they only need 13 DEX/INT, so they can easily afford 24 for 290hp. If you can't average that in a day, you've got problems - you need to sleep to regain spells, which leaves you vulnerable.

Heck, if you need to sleep then the Fighter can shuffle over while you're unconscious and do a coup de grace. Scythes are polearms, and they can afford 13 STR for Power Attack and an automatic +160 damage. You don't want that happening, so I'd probably recommend the Wizard also being non-living.

[daremetoidareyo]

Outside of fell drain, is there any other option to deal non hp damage?


Hmm. 60-70 spell slots. Message is the spell that can kill the fighter, if, if they aren't immune to fatigue. 200 minutes duration per casting. Just keep the fighter awake for days.

As seen in the entry for the Appalling Fecundity sign; Elder Evils page 9:
"A living creature can go without sleep for a number of days equal to its Constitution modifier (minimum one). Thereafter it is fatigued, remaining in this state for a number of days equal to its Constitution modifier (again, minimum one); if it would become fatigued during that time, it is exhausted instead. Each day after that period, the creature takes 1 point of Wisdom damage. If the total Wisdom damage exceeds its Hit Dice, the creature is affected as if by an insanity spell.
(the effects above can only be alleviated by sleep, and the Wisdom damage continues to accumulate thereafter until the creature falls unconscious)"

So...stab your own ears to so that you're deaf to replies. Be immune to fatigue yourself, or not need to sleep (waeforged), or get really really bad sleep apnea, and cast message over and over for days. No save, they have to listen to you. If you have some sort of goad or intimidate boost, you can do that too. Eventually they die of wisdom damage.