The Goblin Defense Fund

[SoD]

Sadly, I doubt that everyone will see it this way. One of my friends once told me I would make an awful DM, due to an imagined conversation:

Me: A lone orc approaches you-
Him: I attack him with my [insert random character designed for max damage with, oddly enough, at least one natural 18]!
Me: Wait, you what?!
Him: I attack it.
Me: Why?!
Him: Because it's evil.
Me: ...no it wasn't...
Him: What do you mean, it's an orc! Of course it's evil!
Me: This one wasn't...
Him: Hmph. I attack it any way.
Me: Why don't you try talking to it?
Him: It's an orc.


Hmph. I bet he'd do the same to an innocent goblin.

[Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick]

Hm...I'm not so sure I love goblins, but I know I hate elves.

Consider me behind your cause, good sirs.

[Forrester]

I have to say, you guys kick ass. I checked the analytics for the visits to the site -- getting more folks from here than from the Uber-Site ENWorld!

Just a reminder, if you click on Goblinks at the site, there's a link to a bunch of banners that you can put up on your Myspace pages or whatnot :). And if you do that & link to our page, happy to list you as a "Friend of the GDF" on the Goblinks page!

[Wraithy]

163 signatures last time I checked

[kpenguin]

The petition is pointless. Just write an adventure with "Tucker's Goblins" in it and the goblin race will be cool enough to be put in a positive light.

[Yvanehtnioj]

I love the comparison of combat tactics...

"The concept of a fair fight is meaningless in their society. They favor ambushes, overwhelming odds, dirty tricks, and any other edge they can devise . . . goblins have a poor grasp of strategy and are cowardly by nature, tending to flee the field if a battle turns against them.”



“Elves are cautious warriors . . . maximizing their advantage by using ambushes, snipers, and camouflage. They prefer to fire from cover and retreat before they are found, repeating this maneuver until all of their enemies are dead.”


Its amazing, now that you look at it, how one can basicly take the exact same tactic, write it two different ways, and make one sound like cowardly swine, and the other to be graceful, tactical warriors...

I agree totally. As I was reading it, a certain Carlos Mencia show popped into my mind. The one where he speaks out about Katrina--New Orleans. He shows pictures from CNN with the captions. The caption for black people was "they were looting...," while the one for white people was "they were finding supplies." Double standards are for gimps.


I play a cleric in a friend's campaign, and we are trying to capture an "abandoned" keep for ourselves. (It has lots of undead in there.) If we succeed, one of the things I am planning on doing is to search the surrounding wilderness for goblins, orcs, etc. Since, one of the languages my character can speak is goblin, I am going to try to forge diplomatic relations with any that I find.
My goal is to help them live safer lives. If it means paying out of my pocket to help them move to our keep, I will do so.

My char is a TN cleric who values the lives of other creatures. Unless you happen to be a bigot, whereby, I'll simply "Flame Strike" you...and loot your body..to fund my charity.

[Yahzi]

most readers of the Monster Manual are daisy-munching elf-lovers with man-crushes on Orlando Bloom

[why123]

Man, this reminds of the Goblin Revolution storyline in the Town. The Goblin Statehood Army launched a guerilla ewar againstopressive dwarves and humans in goblin homelands and created a goblin republic.

[Renrik]

Damn straight. I lead the GSA the whole time, too.

[Xuincherguixe]

Sadly, I doubt that everyone will see it this way. One of my friends once told me I would make an awful DM, due to an imagined conversation:

Me: A lone orc approaches you-
Him: I attack him with my [insert random character designed for max damage with, oddly enough, at least one natural 18]!
Me: Wait, you what?!
Him: I attack it.
Me: Why?!
Him: Because it's evil.
Me: ...no it wasn't...
Him: What do you mean, it's an orc! Of course it's evil!
Me: This one wasn't...
Him: Hmph. I attack it any way.
Me: Why don't you try talking to it?
Him: It's an orc.


Hmph. I bet he'd do the same to an innocent goblin.

You need to take advantage of the guys close mindedness.

"At the moment he hits the ground a peice of paper falls out. On it are written instructions that this particular Orc was to meet you, and lead you to a feast so as to try and win him over, so that he can help us recover that ancient artifact in a treasure filled dungeon." And there are of course no clues as to where he came from.

Or alternatively the god of diplomacy apears before him and breaks an olive branch over his skull.

[SoD]

Yeah, unfortunatly, I wasn't actually DMing. It wasn't actually a game, just an example I put to him, and his replies. I will, however, be DMing for him and others later this year. I've got a feeling he'd act the same towards goblins.

''Why did I attack it? It's in the MM!''
''So are elves. And dwarves, and gnomes, halflings, half elves, half orcs...why don't you attack them?''
''That's different. They're in the PHB.''

He's actually quite a good gamer, with a brilliant grasp of the rules, for combat and noncombat, can make characters with a twist to suit any role...he just thinks along the lines of ''let the village burn. A few proffession (builder) checks and it'll be rebuilt. The people in the village? They're just NPCs! There's millions of them in the world! A village burning won't matter that much.'' Yes. He has actually said that. But he can make a character that, on a critical at level 1 (with a +1 LA) deals 12d6+30 damage.

[Renrik]

I remember the beholder in The Town wrote a story for the Word Page, a newspaper that promoted the interests of "monstrous" creatures. It went something like this:

Phineas walked into a lair of goblins, killed them, and took their trasure. He return to his town and was heralded as a hero.

George broke into a halfling household, murdered the inhabitants, and looted their bodies. He was hanged on the gallows.

What's the difference?

George was colorblind.

[Lord Tataraus]

George was colorblind.

Lol!

As for your player SoD, I can foresee a lot of pain and suffering on his part...unless you're too nice and don't want to teach him a lesson, but you don't seem that type.

[Cyclone231]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, you guys support goblins? Don't you know they eat babies at least once every month in order to connect with their dark god, Malbugyett (sp?), known commonly by the title "the Evil Torture-Loving Baby-Eater"?

Besides, they are anarchic monsters whose ideal world is one wherein a goblin swings in from a rope and hits you with a stick, killing you, and their steals your wife in order to fornicate with her against her will (or make her a slave against her will)!

In a goblin's ideal world, the strong (strong being defined as those most capable of the twin acts of taking power and surviving after) rule the weak (weak being defined as those least capable of the twin acts of taking power and surviving after). That's meritocracy, the greatest affront to democracy and AMERICA there is!

What, do you all hate freedom?

[Fiery Justice]

The Goblins are an unworthy species, and chalking everything said about them as, "Blatant racism" is like saying, "Hey, those demons are alright dudes, everyone who says otherwise is a racist"

I mean seriously, they all participate in rituals to their dark gods. If your powering a being that is the manifest representation of evil, your a bad guy,

[cupkeyk]

"Civilized" races marginalize the "savage" races, encroaching on their resources and driving them away from their homelands. It is absurd that any humanoid paladins exist other than goblinoids, orcs or reptilian exist. They support a culture of hegemony and maltreatment of the weak and defenseless. I am sad that I am only the 241st signature. Ilmater will have goblinoids, reptilian humanoids and orcs in his portfolion, these races have suffered enough.

[Arakune]

The Goblins are an unworthy species, and chalking everything said about them as, "Blatant racism" is like saying, "Hey, those demons are alright dudes, everyone who says otherwise is a racist"

I mean seriously, they all participate in rituals to their dark gods. If your powering a being that is the manifest representation of evil, your a bad guy,

But they are cannon folder, nothing more. If they need to be some short of evil race, at least give then some dignity or means to really threaten someone.

[cupkeyk]

And the correct approach to encountering people of a different ethnicity is to kill them. Look at all the options, peaceful assimilation and reeducation and killing. Yes, killing is always the correct answer. (End of Sarcasm)

[Darkxarth]

I signed. Goblins deserve the same chance as every other intelligent non-outsider.

Except Drow. Screw those guys.

[Renrik]

^^^^^(Fiery Justice)
1. What evidence is there that goblins perform any manner of ritual to maglubiet, other than alubiet being their diety? What evidence is there that these rituals are vile? Do they involve sacrifice? So far, in all the goblin information I've seen, I have seen very little focus given to their religion or their diety. For all we know, they might just go to the temple each gobbo sabbath and pray quietly. Probably not, but they might.

2. What makes Maglubiet evil? Living on a plane with a bunch of giant metallic cubes smashing into eachother? Having friends whose wings happen to be batlike instead of feathery? He supports the interests of the goblin race and the destruction of enemies to his people, just as any other racial diety in D&D does. When maglubiet orders goblins to kill dwavres, is that any more evil than Moradin orderingdwarves to kill goblins? The two races are fighting over resources and space, mostly, which has led them to hate eachother. We don't know which one started it.

3. What makes the fiends and the "lower" planes so bad? The fire and batwings? Not much different from the fire and feathery wings in the upper planes. Both sides are basically armies, trying to win over mortals to their side and win control of the multiverse. The only differences betwee them seem to be cosmetic stuff. They both manipulate and boss around mortals, then take their souls when they die. One side just happens to have membranous wings, while the other side gets feathers.

4. Even assuming that the goblins are wrong to worship their diety, and that their dietyis somehow "evil", does thismake them any worse than humans? A lot of humans worship dieties like Erythnul and Vecna and Nerull. Does this mean I should go into the homes of people living in Hextorian theocracies and kill them, then loot their bodies?


^^^^^^ (Cyclone231)
Actualy, meritocracy is part of the basis of capitalism, in which the best and brightest rise to thetop by being the most productive. If you don;t support capitalism, you must be a socialist. And socialists hate America. Proven fact.


Viva la gobbolution!

[Darkxarth]

3. What makes the fiends and the "lower" planes so bad? The fire and batwings? Not much different from the fire and feathery wings in the upper planes. Both sides are basically armies, trying to win over mortals to their side and win control of the multiverse. The only differences betwee them seem to be cosmetic stuff. They both manipulate and boss around mortals, then take their souls when they die. One side just happens to have membranous wings, while the other side gets feathers.

Actually, fiends are the embodiement of evil (Lawful, Neutral, or Chaotic) and perform unspeakable acts on a daily basis. I'd tell you about them, but they're also untypable acts of evil.

Other than that, "Vivent les Lutins!"

[Cyclone231]

^^^^^^ (Cyclone231)
Actualy, meritocracy is part of the basis of capitalism, in which the best and brightest rise to thetop by being the most productive. If you don;t support capitalism, you must be a socialist. And socialists hate America. Proven fact.


Viva la gobbolution!

Red herring. Capitalism is an economic system, not a political one.

The meritocracy of the goblins applies to their political system.

The political system regulates the economic system by forcing the people to obey the command of the Supreme Warlord, typically creating a command economy rather than a free one.

[Renrik]

^ Touche. In this case, I have to play devil's advocate by arguing that democracy and free markets are bad (which I don;t beleive because I'm a strong supporter of democracy and free markets, but... I have to play devil's adovcate). Let me change into my goblin socialist persona.

Evil human burgoise! Opressor of the working goblin! Down with your fascist capitalism! Viva la gobbolution!

That killed me a little on the inside.

Actually, fiends are the embodiement of evil (Lawful, Neutral, or Chaotic) and perform unspeakable acts on a daily basis. I'd tell you about them, but they're also untypable acts of evil.

You claim they do unspeakable acts of evi, but what evidence do you offer? I fail to see how their influence ont he material plane is any worse than that of the "celestials" who offer support to the humans killing the goblins. They're just different sides of the same coin. Both are manipulative outsiders in a huge interdimensional game of chess. What makes the fiends any more evil than the celestials? Killing "good" creatures? So is it now OK for celestials and their pawns to kill goblins and orcs, but not for feinds and their servants to return the favor? the things that fiends do to their enemies seem to eb the same thing that celestials do to their enemies. They kill them. Often, in horribly painful ways (both sides). One side claiming to have the moral high ground does not make it so, nor does it make their cause more righteous. Each side is simpkly attempting to make themselves masters of the multiverse, by herding as many mortal souls over to their side as possible. Both sides are equally annoying.

[Morty]

Red herring. Capitalism is an economic system, not a political one.

The meritocracy of the goblins applies to their political system.

The political system regulates the economic system by forcing the people to obey the command of the Supreme Warlord, typically creating a command economy rather than a free one.

Which is utterly irrelevant here. The point of the petition is to make goblins something more than easliy justifable cannon fodder, in case you haven't noticed. Yes, the "savage" races in D&D are shown as despicable monsters, in order to give players easy XP on low levels without moral qualms. Which in opinion of many people is stupid and unrealistic. Though making a fund is pushing it a lil' bit too far.

[Renrik]

We ought to hold a design contest: Portray goblinoids in a positive light. Entries can take the form of characters, adventure plots, locations, organizations, or magic items and/or spells made by goblinoids. the goblinoids must be portrayed either as the good guys or as formidable, not-pathetic bad guys with a real purpose.

[Darkxarth]

You claim they do unspeakable acts of evil, but what evidence do you offer? I fail to see how their influence ont he material plane is any worse than that of the "celestials" who offer support to the humans killing the goblins. They're just different sides of the same coin. Both are manipulative outsiders in a huge interdimensional game of chess. What makes the fiends any more evil than the celestials? Killing "good" creatures? So is it now OK for celestials and their pawns to kill goblins and orcs, but not for feinds and their servants to return the favor? the things that fiends do to their enemies seem to br the same thing that celestials do to their enemies. They kill them. Often, in horribly painful ways (both sides). One side claiming to have the moral high ground does not make it so, nor does it make their cause more righteous. Each side is simpkly attempting to make themselves masters of the multiverse, by herding as many mortal souls over to their side as possible. Both sides are equally annoying.

Yes, both Celestials and Fiends spend their time influencing the Material and trying to convert mortals to their sides, but Celestials don't spend their personal time torturing kittens at home.

Fiends do.

Fiends and Celestials both kill their enemies, true, but if a Celestial takes a prisoner they don't torture the information out of them. Fiends, on the other hand, will torture the information out of prisoners and then may continue to torture them for fun.

Consider also what Fiends use their souls for, as opposed to what Celestials use them for. Fiends use souls as fuel and ammunition.

I'd say that qualifies Fiends as pretty freakin' evil.

[ReproMan]

I've always had a working definition of Evil as something along the lines of, 'Causing pain where it is neither needed nor deserved.' That's not to say that an Evil character does this regularly, nor that a Good character has never done this. It's just a general mindset, where an Evil character is much, much more willing to hurt than a Good character would be.

We ought to hold a design contest: Portray goblinoids in a positive light. Entries can take the form of characters, adventure plots, locations, organizations, or magic items and/or spells made by goblinoids. the goblinoids must be portrayed either as the good guys or as formidable, not-pathetic bad guys with a real purpose.

Ooh...

...

...I soooooooo want to say something here, but there's a decent chance some of my PCs will be reading this...

[Ponce]

Nay! The abominations must be cleansed! Goblins, halflings, dwarves, elves, orcs... all must perish in a rite of holy flame! Humans overcome universe! Manifest destiny! One vision! Fried chicken!

[Renrik]

^ and people accuse gobbos of being evil...

Yes, both Celestials and Fiends spend their time influencing the Material and trying to convert mortals to their sides, but Celestials don't spend their personal time torturing kittens at home.

Fiends do.

Fiends and Celestials both kill their enemies, true, but if a Celestial takes a prisoner they don't torture the information out of them. Fiends, on the other hand, will torture the information out of prisoners and then may continue to torture them for fun.

Consider also what Fiends use their souls for, as opposed to what Celestials use them for. Fiends use souls as fuel and ammunition.

I'd say that qualifies Fiends as pretty freakin' evil.

Contining to (literally) play devil's advocate:
Concerning torture:

Spoiler

Show

So the fiends use torture. Humans use torture. Dwarves use torture. Some of the daisy-crunching elf-lovers with mancrushes on Orlando Bloom may deny it, but I'd hazard a guess that Elves use torture too. Does this mean that every single last one of the humans, dwarves, and elves are evil? Of course not. It means that members of their races have been known to be amoral about the method in which they extract information.

Concerning the use of souls:

Spoiler

Show

First, to what extent do you claim the fiends use souls as fuel and ammunition? Certainly, a larval soul can amp up the power of a spell, and they have been known to use souls as currency, and they have been known to use petitioners for manual labor, but as fuel and ammunition? Fuel, perhaps, but I have yet to see a fiend shoot a soul at someone. that would make as much sense as me shooting someone with a chunk of gold.

Seondly, even if the fiends do use souls as you have stated, don't you think the celestials use souls for their own purposes? Armies of 'saved' souls? Where do you think the goodly gods and the celestials draw their power from? As if the fiends were so inferior that only they had to use souls for power, while the clestials could match them without doing so? If only the fiends were taking souls as power, then either
a. Fiends are horribly pathetic creatures, which they are not.
or
b. Fiends would have overrun the 'upper' planes by virtue of having more power, from all those souls. they have not done so.

So, it stands to reason that the fiends must not be the only ones tapping into souls for power.

Moreover, consider the goodly gods. They draw their power from "worship", from being recognized and venerated by mortals. Mortals that venerate Gods have their souls sucked into the Gods' realms when they die. There, it is hypothesized that they merge with the gods and add to their strength. Or, at very least, become petitioners and continue to serve their gods. therefor, the gods draw their powers from the mortal souls of their petitioners.

Finally, if the fiends do "abuse" their petitioners, is it any fault? The very nature of humanity (or goblinity) is that all individuals ultimately have free choice in their descisions. If a mortal decides to side with the Fiends and enjoy wealth and power in life in exchange for service to the fiends in the afterlife, it was his choice to folow that bargain, and it was thus his own doing that placed in the service of the fiends.

And, finally, the orginal root of this particular part of the conversation was whether or not goblins are evil for worshipping alegedly evil gods.
I submit to you that goblins worship Maglubiet not because they are evil creatures, but because Maglubiet is the only deity that has shown any interest in the well-being of the goblin people. While other the other deities tend to their domains and turn a blind eye on the followers of Moradin, Corellon, Heironius, Cuthbert, Pelor, and others, who brutally rampage through goblin towns, who attack goblin tribes, and who actively work to drive goblins out of their lands, only Maglubiet took the time to pledge his service to the goblins by providing them with a divine patron who would grant power to their preists, to provide healing and protection, in exchange for veneration, which itself only serves to fuel Maglubiet so that he can continue to provide the divine spells to the goblin clerics.

I ask you: If you were a goblin, if your tribe had just been butchered by a gang of humans and elves and dwarves and what-have-you, if your home had been destroyed and looted, and an entity comes to you, offers to grant you spellcasting powers that will protect you, pledges to fight against the gods of those that have destroyed your home, and promises to make your people safe and well-off, would you care if he happened to come from the plane of Acheron (which is, in and of itself, not an evil plane; it is a LN plane with LE tendencies. It's right next to Mechanus. Maglubiet probably lives in that hellhole because the "godly" deuities who have ordered their followers to opress the goblins have likewised scorned the goblin god.)?

I wouldn't. Why? Because all the other gods have forsaken the goblins. Only Maglubiet has shown any concern for their wellbeing. And what evidence is there that Maglubiet plans anything dangerous? He has so far only worked to promote the interests of the goblin people, which are apparently to thrive and prosper, and to gain an upper hand in their ongoing war with the dwarves and elves (and don't say the goblins started the war. there is no evidence of that. Most likely, it was developed over territorial disputes and fighting for resources.). In looking out for his people's wellbeing, Maglubiet is like any other racial deity, no worse than your beloved Corellon or Moradin.
-------------

Anyway, on to the design contest: I'm thinking of putting in an entry that jointly covers the entire goblin revolution complex from the Town. Put the GSA-GWU-GLP (Goblin Statehood Army, Worker's Union, and Labor Party, respectively), the Free Federation of Goblin States and its capitol at Datharral, and then an interesting twist by putting in the extremist militant group the Sons of Maglubiet. Or maybe I'll just do one of those ideas.

Edit: I think we'll need a seperate thread for that design contestemajiggy, though. I'll go start one in the Homebrew Section.

[Morty]

Showing goblins in positive light? Now that's something for me. Although the version of goblins I put in my campaign setting resembles Warcraft goblins about as much as D&D ones...