Full Caster's Answer to Full Caster?

[Dausuul]

So, on the "Full Caster's Answer to Stealth Skills" thread, the rogues are now using UMD+scrolls to try and take the wizard down. Which is legitimate, but also kind of wizard-lite.

Therefore, I decided to cut through it and pose the real question:

Can a 20th-level wizard successfully assassinate another 20th-level wizard?

Of course, to make it interesting, I'll set out a few conditions.

There are two 20th-level wizards, Wolf and Stag. Both are straight-up wizards with no PrCs and 32-point buy, although they are allowed to be specialists if they wish. They start in secret fortresses, neither knowing the other's location, and each has a day to prep spells before the contest begins.

Clarification: Both wizards know the rules of the contest from the start, including all information given below.

Wolf's goal is simple: Kill Stag.

Stag's goal is a bit more complicated. Stag must stay alive; however, he's also not allowed to huddle inside Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion all day. Every day at 8:00 AM, he will be given a task to do within 24 hours, reflecting the demands upon a socially conscious high-level wizard's time. This task will require him to go to a chosen location and do one of the following:

1: Kill a CR 20 monster which is present at that location. (This should not pose a serious challenge for a 20th-level wizard, but does require a bit of effort.)
2: Talk to a person at that location for 1 hour.
3: Deliver an object in Stag's possession to that location. (The object in question will be of no significant value; we're talking love letters and bags of potatoes here, not magic items.)
4: Take an object (again, of no significant value) from that location to another location.

Each day, the location to which Stag is sent and the task he is required to perform there are different, and neither he nor Wolf knows in advance what they will be. Stag is given his assignments by Pun-Pun, who has given himself permanent nonmagical mind blank as an extraordinary ability, so Wolf cannot coerce, compel, or mind-scan the assignment-giver.

Clarification: Pun-Pun cannot be spied upon, scried upon, or in any way examined by Wolf--or Stag for that matter. He delivers the assignments by beaming them directly into Stag's mind (bypassing any mind blank or other such spells Stag may have in effect) from his floating citadel in the Plane of Hot Kobold Women. Wolf is permitted to try to find out what the assignment is, but he cannot do so in any way that involves going through Pun-Pun.

The contest lasts for 30 days. At the end of that time, if Stag is still alive and has performed all his tasks, he wins. If Stag is dead or has failed in at least one task, Wolf wins. Special exemption: If Stag fails at a task because Wolf's interference makes the task actually impossible to complete, he is excused from that task. But remember that "impossible" is a pretty strong word in the context of a 20th-level wizard.

(Note that this means Wolf not only has to kill Stag, but keep him dead; if Stag can arrange to get himself resurrected, he can still win.)

WHO WINS?

And, more importantly, how?

[Skjaldbakka]

Why don't you run it and find out?

[Dausuul]

Why don't you run it and find out?

Because I want to see what strategies people come up with?

[Hunter Noventa]

A curious contest, with multiple levels. However, in the end, after duels of scrying versus anti-scrying, transportation and dueling, it all would like come down to whoever's Contingency was better worded.

Of course, the easier thing for Wolf to do would be to prevent Stag from compelteing a task. Which means that once he finds Stag, things become more interesting, requiring a different approach for each task.

1.) Kill the monster before Stag can, or aid the monster in killing Stag. Two CR 20 encounters would likely wipe out a single wizard.

2.) Kill the person Stag has to talk to. SHould be easy if you can find out who it is.

3.) Destroy said location before Stag arrives, or attempt to block all routes of arrival.

4.) Destory object before Stag can pick it up, or failing that resort to 3.)

The problem is if that scrying and divination cannot reveal any of this data, Wolf is oing to have a bit more trouble. Though if he can find out where Stag lives and attack him in his sleep...well I dunno. I'm sure someone more expert than I will elaborate further.

[Kyeudo]

Hmm. Since Stag knows that he's being hunted, the first think on his list is keeping a Mind Blank on himself 24/7. This will cut all chances of Wolf using divinations to find Stag. Stag should also keep a Foresight/Celerity combo ready during his missions, so that he can unload a Time Stop summoning nova to get some body guards.

The only time Stag should have a problem is on days when he must spend 1 hour at a location talking to someone and Wolf somehow figures out where he will be. However, a Rary's Telepathic Bond will allow Stag to keep chatting while he Greater Teleports around the continent.

I say Stag will win.

[Dausuul]

Of course, the easier thing for Wolf to do would be to prevent Stag from compelteing a task. Which means that once he finds Stag, things become more interesting, requiring a different approach for each task.

Hmm, that's a good point... rules modified to reflect that, since this is ultimately supposed to be about Wolf killing Stag.

[Jacob Orlove]

Wolf wins. It doesn't even matter how, because there's pretty much always a counter to any specific line of attack. The problem is that there are more possible lines of attack than either Wizard has spells for, which means that unless Stag is extremely lucky 30 times in a row, Wolf will have (even if just by chance) prepared an attack for which Stag does not have the matching defense.

But let's start things off. Gate has no save and no SR, and "By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling." It should be trivial to win at that point, particularly if you employ a quickened/contingent Mordenkainen's Disjunction.

So now Stag has to set up a Contingency for that, or find a different defense, but either way, he limits his options against other attacks. We can just keep listing ways for Wolf to win, until Stag runs out of spells/cash/feats to stop them all. Wolf is under no such limitation.

Stag's only real chance to win is to kill Wolf, and then complete his tasks.

[Chronos]

Of course, the easier thing for Wolf to do would be to prevent Stag from compelteing a task. Which means that once he finds Stag, things become more interesting, requiring a different approach for each task.

As I'm reading the rules, this would be a no-win situation, not a win for Wolf. Likewise, if Stag neglects his tasks to hunt down Wolf (and succeeds), that's also a no-win. Except for the one about Wolf teaming up with the CR20 monster, of course, but he'd have to get the timing right: If it's just "later that day", then Stag is already safely back in his extradimensional space.

As far as tactics go, I would expect that Legend Lore and/or Vision would be very useful divinations, since a level 20 character is easily well into the "legendary" range.

[Guy_Whozevl]

The way the task is set up, Wolf will always win if he preempts any of the tasks Stag has to do. The perameters you have set up seem too harsh in that sense. Even making Stag have a mind blank won't help, as Wolf can use a divination spell to find who Stag has to talk to, not Stag himself. It's just too easy for Wolf to win if he has 30 days to make Stag screw up.
The situation itself doesn't even have anything to do with the original question. How does stopping Stag from picking up groceries (ie by destroying the grocery store) prove Stag can be assassinated? How does stopping Stag from talking to a friend count as assassinating him? You need a better way to test the possibility of assassination or you need a new premise.
Also, you need to define what will be allowed by Wolf and Stag. Is cheese permitted? What about Leadership or stuff like that? What about overall character wealth? For the monster itself, if it's the Tarrasque, Stag is going to screw himself over paying for XP costs. If it is person with class levels, it's going to be a cakewalk unless it is another spellcaster, which leads to a highly probable death on Stag's part if the encounter is run correctly.

All in all, it is a bold experiment, but is poorly defined and has too many variables to accurately predict in an unbiased situation. However, this current situation is heavily biased towards Wolf. As I said before, Wolf will always win.

[Solo]

Because I want to see what strategies people come up with?

Summon antimatter, blow up the planet the other guy is on.

[Human Paragon 3]

If Wolf ever comes face to face with Stag, he can cast a Trace Teleport (or is that a psionic power?). Once he's traced Stag back to his lair, it should be easy to infiltrate it and destroy him.

[Behold_the_Void]

If Wolf can trace Stag back to his hideout, it's a matter of wearing him down. Stag has the disadvantage of having expended a lot of spell slots carrying out his tasks. Wolf can come in fresh and harry him while Stag tries to rest, preventing him from recovering spell slots. He can even use minions (such as those acquired via Dominate Monster) to keep Stag awake and slowly whittle down his spell slots while Wolf can still comfortably rest and restore his own spell slots.

[Kaelik]

I understand that the original post has been edited, by why does everyone keep saying that Wolf wins? Stag is Mindblanked. Mindblank>Gods. Task assigner is Mindblanked. There is no divination that Wolf can pull off to figure out where Stag will be. There is no divination to figure out what his task is.

I don't know about Vision, but Legend Lore does nothing because the first thing Stag does is go hide in an obscure village. He lives there for a while, pretending to be a poor begger who comes into town looking for work. Occasionally he Greater Teleports out to accomplish a task.

He doesn't even need a Contingency or Foresight/Celerity. Wolf will never even find him.

Also note that later in the more specific part of the description of the Gate spell it states that it must be an extraplanar creature. So a Wizard needs expend no resources to get past that.

And if for some reason Wolf found out about Stag, he could never teleport in because Greater Anticipate Teleport would be up all the time.

[Kaelik]

If Wolf ever comes face to face with Stag, he can cast a Trace Teleport (or is that a psionic power?). Once he's traced Stag back to his lair, it should be easy to infiltrate it and destroy him.

And why would he ever come face to face with him? And why couldn't Stag just make a new lair?

Stag: I teleport away from the guy.
Wolf: I cast Trace Teleport.
Stag: I cast Time Stop and Teleport several more times.
Wolf: I follow the First Teleport.

I have no idea what Trace Teleport does, but based on range/time limits/whatever, I think that Stag can make it so Wolf has no idea where he is.

[Captain van der Decken]

It's psionic.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/po...ceTeleport.htm

[namo]

It is easier to defend than to attack in this case - since he knows he will be attacked.

Wolf has to find Stag, but Stag is so mobile that Wolf has to be able to follow Stag. He'd better memorize lots of Divinations... and then he doesn't have enough offensive power left.

[Kaelik]

It is easier to defend than to attack in this case - since he knows he will be attacked.

Wolf has to find Stag, but Stag is so mobile that Wolf has to be able to follow Stag. He'd better memorize lots of Divinations... and then he doesn't have enough offensive power left.

See Mindblank, Divinations=useless.

[namo]

Not quite. Contact Other Plane and the likes still work. But sure, it's a pain to try and get precise information from it.

[mostlyharmful]

amulet of the planes gives unlimited plane shifts per day with a DC15 intellegence check which any wizard should breeze past, this means there is no way wolf can follow stag as he's bouncing around the universe not just the planet, he doesn't even need any teleports memorized just a bit of patience to shift in and out until he lands within 5 miles of his target.

His tower is clearly covered by a permenacied sanctuary spell and he himself is always under mindblank and anticipate teleport so there is no way to find him on the move, no way to find him asleep and no way to surprise him when he stops to have a chat. plus he'll have a stasis clone stashed away somewhere and there's no time delay on a dead wizard waking up into it so wolf can't just kill him and soul bind him, it's got to be a no-leathel takedown which incapacitates. Oh, and stag must not have any high level friends to come to his rescue, help him out or otherwise swing the contest (it doesn't matter overly if wolf has friends as they can't find their opponent or his home).

Wolfs only hope is a DM interpreting that once the mindblanked assigner gives the mission to the mindblanked stag the information is somehow available through divination which seems dumb but it looks like wolf could use a break.

"ok you need to kill this stag guy"
"fine, where is he?"
"oh, I'm not telling you"
"ok then, what's he doing?"
"Nope"
"er, where does he live?"
"nuh-uh"
"can i ask for help?"
"sure but no-one else will kno anything either"
"......... how about ....... um...... "

[Kurald Galain]

It should be trivial to win at that point, particularly if you employ a quickened/contingent Mordenkainen's Disjunction.

You can't do that, Contingency only works with spells of up to sixth level.

[Dausuul]

What if Wolf uses a scroll of wish, choosing the "transport travelers" option, to transport Stag to his (Wolf's) own location?

[namo]

@mostlyharmful : the Gods know. Hence COP : you use it to learn about the mission of Stag and mount a ambush there. It's still exceedingly difficult and I'm still betting on Stag.

@Dausuul : interesting ! Of course, Will saves tend to be higher than spell DCs (and definitely so for a scroll), but Wolf can just do it over and over (I recommend a staff). That may actually work.
Stag will identify the tactic (Spellcraft) and need to find a counter to it - probably a contingency.

[Kaelik]

Not quite. Contact Other Plane and the likes still work. But sure, it's a pain to try and get precise information from it.

Contact Other Plane doesn't help if the Gods don't know anything, which they don't because everyone involved is Mindblanked.

@mostlyharmful : the Gods know. Hence COP : you use it to learn about the mission of Stag and mount a ambush there. It's still exceedingly difficult and I'm still betting on Stag.

Actually there is no reason that the Gods would know, since the information is completely contained within the minds of two people who are immune to anything the Gods try. (Gods aren't omniscient remember?)

For that matter, if Pun-Pun wanted that to work, he'd tell Wolf himself. Since he doesn't want asking the Gods to work, he can just use his overdiety status to block the spells. (Not that he needs to because no other Gods know.)

@Dausuul : interesting ! Of course, Will saves tend to be higher than spell DCs (and definitely so for a scroll), but Wolf can just do it over and over (I recommend a staff). That may actually work.
Stag will identify the tactic (Spellcraft) and need to find a counter to it - probably a contingency.

Yeah, he'll pretty much need a staff, or eighty. Since he could easily Dimensional Lock the area he is staying in (as a beggar, or in MMM.) So at that point he needs to cast Wish during the one part of the day where he has a shot, and he needs to force several Will saves.

[Jarlax]

Wolf would win. a legend lore spell may not necessarily work on stag but it would work on Pun-Pun, the legendary kobold.

since Pun-Pun is not actively trying to evade or detect Wolf he can locate him and go to him. everything hereafter works on a single assumption, that Pun-Pun is a neutral party and that even if Pun-Pun did detect Wolf he will not actively interfere with any action that does not DIRECTLY interfere with him assigning a mission to Stag.

so now we wait for Stag to arrive and view his assignment being given to him by Pun-Pun through nonmagical means (our own eyes and ears). we now have enough information to stop Stag from succeeding in his task for the day, no matter what it might be.

the other option is to set a trap at Pun-Pun's location. a COP spell can reveal that Pun-Pun assigns the task every day at 8, so Wolf knows where and when Stag must be every day and while Stag has used many spell slots to ensure his nondetection Wolf can prepare his full assortment of spells for combat and know the exact time combat will begin to optimize his buff spells.

finally just drop a Halaster's teleport cage around Pun-Pun from 9:00am to 8:00am the following day so that Stag cannot get to Pun-Pun at the assigned time to receive his task for the day. he would take too long to find the edge of the cage and make it on foot to Pun-Pun. the spell covers a space of 200 cubic feet per section and takes only 10 minutes to cast with each section "locking" onto adjoining cages to allow the space to grow indefinitely, the space around Pun-Pun (and potentially the CR 20 monster he is supposed to kill if your lucky) you could lock out would be massive. in this case you have not made contacting Pun-Pun impossible, simply highly unlikely.

[namo]

Contact Other Plane doesn't help if the Gods don't know anything, which they don't because everyone involved is Mindblanked.

I'll admit I'm shaky on the Divine rules, but I believe Gods can bypass immunities like the one granted by Mindblank (with magic, with SDAs or with Portfolio Sense). Heck, Metafaculty can bypass it and it's accessible to mortals.

Yeah, he'll pretty much need a staff, or eighty. Since he could easily Dimensional Lock the area he is staying in (as a beggar, or in MMM.) So at that point he needs to cast Wish during the one part of the day where he has a shot, and he needs to force several Will saves.

I excluded that tactic because 1) a wizard typically wants to remain mobile, 2) Wish does not mention how a target is transported - if they are both on the same plane, it may not be subject to effects that block planar travel.

@Jarlax : you are perhaps unaware that Pun-Pun is a very specific (theoretical) character and that he is definitely immune to anything you attempt against him. Presumably that's why he was chosen as impartial referee.

[Kaelik]

Wolf would win. a legend lore spell may not necessarily work on stag but it would work on Pun-Pun, the legendary kobold.

since Pun-Pun is not actively trying to evade or detect Wolf he can locate him and go to him. everything hereafter works on a single assumption, that Pun-Pun is a neutral party and that even if Pun-Pun did detect Wolf he will not actively interfere with any action that does not DIRECTLY interfere with him assigning a mission to Stag.

so now we wait for Stag to arrive and view his assignment being given to him by Pun-Pun through nonmagical means (our own eyes and ears). we now have enough information to stop Stag from succeeding in his task for the day, no matter what it might be.

the other option is to set a trap at Pun-Pun's location. a COP spell can reveal that Pun-Pun assigns the task every day at 8, so Wolf knows where and when Stag must be every day and while Stag has used many spell slots to ensure his nondetection Wolf can prepare his full assortment of spells for combat and know the exact time combat will begin to optimize his buff spells.

finally just drop a Halaster's teleport cage around Pun-Pun from 9:00am to 8:00am the following day so that Stag cannot get to Pun-Pun at the assigned time to receive his task for the day. he would take too long to find the edge of the cage and make it on foot to Pun-Pun. the spell covers a space of 200 cubic feet per section and takes only 10 minutes to cast with each section "locking" onto adjoining cages to allow the space to grow indefinitely, the space around Pun-Pun (and potentially the CR 20 monster he is supposed to kill if your lucky) you could lock out would be massive. in this case you have not made contacting Pun-Pun impossible, simply highly unlikely.

One problem, "Every Day at 8AM he will be given a task." Note that it does not say he will report to Pun-Pun to receive his task. They could have a Rary's Telepathic Bond going. Or Pun-Pun could just drop something off in a specific place. (And why would Wolf know that Stag gets his task at 8 in the morning?)

[GoC]

Wolf would win. a legend lore spell may not necessarily work on stag but it would work on Pun-Pun, the legendary kobold.

1. Pun-Pun is the overdiety. Few people know much about Ao so why would they know about Pun-Pun?
2. I'm fairly certain Pun-Pun wiped the memories of everyone who knew about him when he ascended.

[Swordguy]

Summon antimatter, blow up the planet the other guy is on.

Curse you for beating me to it.

Wouldn't work anyway. 20th lvl caster =plane-hopping at will. Which means that when combined with mindblank, well, good luck finding out which planet he's on. Which means that you've got only 30 days to blow up every planet in the multiverse.

Yeah. Good luck with that.

[Jacob Orlove]

Also note that later in the more specific part of the description of the Gate spell it states that it must be an extraplanar creature. So a Wizard needs expend no resources to get past that.

Right, except that people are proposing that Stag hop around the planes like crazy. From the SRD:

Extraplanar Subtype
A subtype applied to any creature when it is on a plane other than its native plane. A creature that travels the planes can gain or lose this subtype as it goes from plane to plane.

You can also Gate someone in if they're on the Astral or Ethereal planes, so Stag should avoid those as well.

[Mr. Friendly]

Wolf wakes up on the first day, eats a hearty breakfast and does a little research on Stag. He either does this magically or hires a Bard to do it for him. He finds out who Stag's mother is/was.

Wolf smiles, does what could be his final actions on the material plane pre-potential collapse, then he speaks, and in doing so casts a spell:

"I wish that (mother's name), the mother of Stag (if he has a last name he would have learned it) of (town where Stag lives), {wife (if married when birthing Stag) of (husband/fathers name) OR daughter (if no husband) of (her parents names)} had died on (insert date any time before Stag was born) from (insert cause)."

Ideally with proper research, Wolf could establish a day that Stag's mom almost died from some situation, but did not, which he then alters to kill her. In theory he could also establish a timeframe when her resurrection or raisedness would be impossible, since she is in all likelyhood just some commoner or minor noble at best.

He could even go back farther than that, if he is willing to accept the consequences of causality and paradox. In any event, 5000xp well spent.