My Hero Academia 3: Villainous Interlude

[Ramza00]

New chapter, this is my jam!

Yet simultaneously I wished some of the time is used to show off, and decompress via doing pretty action against Robots.

https://www.viz.com/shonenjump/my-he...47?action=read

[Dragonus45]

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Ugh reading this just keeps getting more stressful. It feels like the almost every victory the heroes have had over the series are all getting snapped away at once and nothing and no one can even slow them down. I really hope this tone doesn't become the new status quo for a long time.

The reintroduction of Hate Teeth the Murder Man who KILLS PEOPLE WITH HIS EXTENDABLE TEETH is not helping right now for sure.

[GloatingSwine]

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Given that we're seeing sparks of defiance here, I think the outcome of this might actually be Shigaraki ganking All for One

[LaZodiac]

I have many thoughts about this chapter.

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The admission of the people in universre that Tartarus is a ****ing humans right disaster. I like the idea they're showing here that a lot of the people who would, you know, willingly work at the secret super villain prison are kinda ****ed in the head in some way.

I really like seeing old friends. Stain, waiting patiently in his cell. Muscular going ****ing hog wild. Moonfish... bein' Moonfish. Even All For One strutting his stuff a bit, even though, for the second time, I'm eating my crow. I did predict All For One intended to die here, and was vehement that he would not escape. And, well, he hasn't escaped yet, but it was clearly part of his plan. But I'll also note that I said "if he does, it'll be executed in a way that is more interesting than just doing it" and I was right on that so nyeah.

But, for me, the most important part of this chapter is a very simple one.

Whomst'dve?!?!?

[John Cribati]

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This new lady seems to be a technopath, based on what she's saying about not being able to do anything because the system is down.

[Dragonus45]

I have many thoughts about this chapter.

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The admission of the people in universre that Tartarus is a ****ing humans right disaster. I like the idea they're showing here that a lot of the people who would, you know, willingly work at the secret super villain prison are kinda ****ed in the head in some way.

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I would have liked to see the Tartarus stuff explored a bit more. Super powers always create this clown fiesta of a situation where the only way to actually imprison someone is a human rights disaster but jut executing them is also unacceptable and the question of what to do with people like Muscular and Moonfish is an interesting one. But yea, I'm not surprised the people working there are a bit extreme. Sadly they weren't extreme enough I guess.

[Traab]

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I would have liked to see the Tartarus stuff explored a bit more. Super powers always create this clown fiesta of a situation where the only way to actually imprison someone is a human rights disaster but jut executing them is also unacceptable and the question of what to do with people like Muscular and Moonfish is an interesting one. But yea, I'm not surprised the people working there are a bit extreme. Sadly they weren't extreme enough I guess.

I liked the way they handle super jail in the grrl power comic. The basic gist is, they cant just build "a" jail as everyones power is different and there is no humane way to shut them off in every case, so they have to tailor the confinement based on what you can do. One person can create portals so they keep her in an area pressurized in such a way that she would pop (or at least get the bends) if she just opened a portal to her house or something. Another guy is literally fueled by violence, the more violence, the stronger he gets, so they keep him isolated and pumped full of weed at all times to keep him happy and nonviolent. They can keep him restrained at base level but if they put him in a regular prison, one riot and boom, he can walk through the walls to freedom like its rice paper. They basically get a nice apartment for themselves, full amenities, they just cant leave till they serve their term.

Its a comic so it was written more to be funny than a serious attempt to world build, so dont examine it too closely but in all honesty? It seems the sort of thing the mha society has had to put a lot of thought in because basically everyone has powers now, and it seems each generation is getting stronger on average so they probably have people who spend all day thinking of ways to contain various quirks just in case they need to go to jail. Funny thing is, you would think the government would be DESPERATE to get ahold of eri and her reversal quirk (especially the bullets overhaul made) specifically for this very thing. Imagine just poking each lifer in the arm and no more quirk to worry about? Suddenly the most dangerous criminals become normal people and easily contained. Less worry about human rights violations because there arent any extreme steps required to keep them secure. And they have already more than proven they dont deserve to keep the ability they have abused so badly. And knowing that punishment is looming over their head might make the less dangerous types more cooperative knowing that if they mess up then that punishment could be added onto their sentence. So yeah you have a quirk that turns cement and prison bars into chlorine gas that you are immune to. But dont try it. Because some guard WILL shoot you with a quirk erasing bullet.

[Rater202]

You can't use "depower them" as a deterrent.

for one, it doesn't work for the same reason that other punishments don't work as a deterrent--nobody who commits crimes thinks they're gonna get caught.

For two, in a setting where someone's superpowers are naturally occurring, a genetic mutation, or otherwise part of their body—especially in MHA where most of the population has power—permentalty depowering someone is equivocal to crippling or mutilating them.

Like, seriously, do you want to live in a world where a boxer who gets arrested for a crime has his arms sawed off so he can't escape from prison by punching the guards or some bull-crap like that.

Especially in MHA, where someone like Izuku is considered to be disabled despite there being nothing at all wrong with him becuase he doesn't have even a minor, trivial power or even a purely cosmetic mutation.

That would be a worse human rights violation than just locking them up in the first place.

Besides, we know for a fact that the hero system+the strict set of laws that basically mean that nobody but heroes is allowed to use their quirks unless they're on private property don't exist for the benefit of the people but for the benefit of the Government. Its to maintain the government's monopoly of power and the current status quo.

You don't give a government like that the means to permanently remove the powers of someone—do that and it's "good buy hero system, hello the only people who get to keep their quirs are the heads of Government and people loyal to them... I mean, the Government.."

[Ramza00]

Not sure if I want to enter this conversation with an example.

Let's say there isn't a depowering drug / agent, but instead an agent that reduces quirk factor, makes it harder to use your superpowers with requiring extreme concentration, etc, something to reduce the villains when they are in prison.

Such a story metaphor would quickly become creepy for it would remind people of insane asylums and how abusive those things were. Besides being dehumanizing spaces, with humans who dehumanize other humans, giving someone a neuroleptics drug (literally from french and prior to that latin, "neuron" "to take a hold of / seizing") when you do not have the disorder neuroleptics / antipsychotics treat is [censored] [censored] [censored].

Treating powerful quirk users as monsters, as super-villians, literally forces them into a corner where they will their magical like abilities to wicked ends in order to control their body and being able to flow through space. Prisons like prisons are not natural and super-powers just reminds us and highlights this fact.

[John Cribati]

Treating powerful quirk users as monsters, as super-villians, literally forces them into a corner where they will their magical like abilities to wicked ends in order to control their body and being able to flow through space. Prisons like prisons are not natural and super-powers just reminds us and highlights this fact.

Yeah except they’re not treated like monsters because of their quirks, but because of what they did with them. You know, like the guy who murdered people because it was fun, or the other guy who killed and ate people, the one who tortured a small child...

[Rater202]

Yeah except they’re not treated like monsters because of their quirks, but because of what they did with them. You know, like the guy who murdered people because it was fun, or the other guy who killed and ate people, the one who tortured a small child...

Toga.

Toga was treated like a demon by her parents becuase she has a biological need to, and attending compulsion, to play with and drink blood. They took her to a drink that said that her power was evil and gross and to never use it, and after doing her damndest to follow the Quack's instructions she snapped, filled someone, and shattered completly.

Toga became a monster as a direct consequence of being treated like a monster for her monstrous quirk.

It doesn't happen for everyone, but there is a direct canonical example of it happening in the setting.

[Ramza00]

Yeah except they’re not treated like monsters because of their quirks, but because of what they did with them. You know, like the guy who murdered people because it was fun, or the other guy who killed and ate people, the one who tortured a small child...

Real life humans have a very low amount of people who do those type of crimes vs other types of crimes where people did "banal" things that are crimes.

That is my point.

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And with a fictional construct like a story you as narrator get to diegetically say this is why a person is prison. Do it enough times, do it at young enough ages, and you can create a false belief system in people where the person believes reality is like those fictional stories I read as a kid.

I love fantastical stories, but I also realize they are not like reality. Not everyone is able to do this. See Reality TV.

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Edit: One last thing, the League of Villains is composed of characters we see points of view from, who we are meant to sympathize with...

characters from Horror Movies. Frankenstein, Vampire, Phantom of the Opera / Arsène Lupin / A. J. Raffles , Zombie, Creature from the Black Lagoon, etc. [Magne and Twice are also horror movies but I forget which off hand and I am not going to look it up right now]

These characters are meant to be different than Muscular and Moonfish. The story itself is making my point about how society treats people also affects how people turn out.

[Julian84]

You can't use "depower them" as a deterrent.

I mean, ATLA treats it as more moral than killing them.

[Rater202]

I mean, ATLA treats it as more moral than killing them.

Avatar didn't do it as a deterant. Avatar did it becuase it was the only way to stop him.

Aang didn't have it in him to kill, and an extended fight would only delay Ozai. It was either depower Ozai or Ozai would burn an entire continent to the ground.

Meanwhile, Legend of Korra shows exactly what happens when "depower people" is considered a viable option in more tha extreme situations: Terrorists with tall-poppy syndrome.

[Dragonus45]

Besides, we know for a fact that the hero system+the strict set of laws that basically mean that nobody but heroes is allowed to use their quirks unless they're on private property don't exist for the benefit of the people but for the benefit of the Government. Its to maintain the government's monopoly of power and the current status quo.

Do we know that? Is that a thing we really know for a fact? Because I think it is, to put it politely, a bit of a stretch.

Anyways.

I'm 100% on board with quirk removal likely being a serious personal violation, although in a nation that doesn't want to have a death penalty it may be most ethical, or at least least unethical, way to handle the issue of people so powerful that any attempt to safely contain them could itself be wildly unethical.

Toga became a monster as a direct consequence of being treated like a monster for her monstrous quirk.

The only person responsible for Toga is Toga.

[Rater202]

The only person responsible for Toga is Toga.

Toga was and IIRC still is a minor. Her parents and the shrink they took her too both held responsible for making sure she had adequate mental health care to deal with and manage the psychological aspects of her quirk in a way that maintained her mental health without harming others.

She became a killer as a consequence of her parents and mental health care provider failing in those duties--her parents abused her emotionally and her shrink committed what is arguably malpractice by deliberately instructing her to do things that anyone who took Psych 101 in college knows would just make her problems worse in the long term.

[Dragonus45]

Toga was and IIRC still is a minor. Her parents and the shrink they took her too both held responsible for making sure she had adequate mental health care to deal with and manage the psychological aspects of her quirk in a way that maintained her mental health without harming others.

She became a killer as a consequence of her parents and mental health care provider failing in those duties--her parents abused her emotionally and her shrink committed what is arguably malpractice by deliberately instructing her to do things that anyone who took Psych 101 in college knows would just make her problems worse in the long term.

Sure, but at the end of the day Toga is the one killing people and Toga is the one responsible for her actions. No one else is.

[Rater202]

Sure, but at the end of the day Toga is the one killing people and Toga is the one responsible for her actions. No one else is.

"you are the only one responsible for your actions" only applies if you are a mentally healthy individual who i s not subject to coercion.

Toga is severely mentally ill--it is obvious that she is mentally ill. she even has trouble understanding why her behavior frightens or upsets some people going by some scenes.

As she is mentally ill, her responsibility for her actions is questionable... And the people responsible for her mental health care become culpable in part for her actions.

If I spike someone's drink with LSD and he runs someone over while trying to drive across the rainbow bridge to Candy City on the moon, I'm the one responsible for that death, not the guy I drugged.

If a shrink gives their underage patient advice or treatments that make the patient's mental condition deteriorate--and that's exactly what happened with the Quack Toga was sent to--then the Shrink is at least partially responsible for what the patient does.

[Spacewolf]

You can't use "depower them" as a deterrent.

for one, it doesn't work for the same reason that other punishments don't work as a deterrent--nobody who commits crimes thinks they're gonna get caught.

Except that's provably untrue and is one of the biggest arguments against the death penalty since it gives an in for a penny in for a pound mentality. The fact we've got a saying that deals with that exact issue is also a pretty good indication.

For two, in a setting where someone's superpowers are naturally occurring, a genetic mutation, or otherwise part of their body—especially in MHA where most of the population has power—permentalty depowering someone is equivocal to crippling or mutilating them.

Like, seriously, do you want to live in a world where a boxer who gets arrested for a crime has his arms sawed off so he can't escape from prison by punching the guards or some bull-crap like that.

In this case since they are talking about Gigante is more the boxer was arrested for punching thousands of people to death over the course of a single day and if he is left unrestrained could easily break down the bars of the cell and kill the guards who would have no way of fighting back since as far as we've seen they don't have the best quirks or may infact be quirkless but unlike our hero still try to make the world a better place.

Especially in MHA, where someone like Izuku is considered to be disabled despite there being nothing at all wrong with him becuase he doesn't have even a minor, trivial power or even a purely cosmetic mutation.

Not exactly Izuku isn't considered disabled by anyone except the bullies in his class, his teacher points out correctly that he can't be a hero. But he could still join the police, fire or medical services and save people but because Izuku wants to be a hero and his mom feels bad for him that he never gets the kick he needs to realise his life could still have a purpose. Izukus case is more saying someone shouldn't aim to be a top athlete because even if they have the desire for it they don't have the skill. Hell Deku doesn't even put in the bare minimum effort into training until he is literally handed the best quirk in the world so it's more like someone who wants to be a top athlete but gets told it's a bad idea then decides he is going to do it anyway but doesn't train and instead just watches TV all day.

That would be a worse human rights violation than just locking them up in the first place.

Debatably but certainly true from some points of view.

Besides, we know for a fact that the hero system+the strict set of laws that basically mean that nobody but heroes is allowed to use their quirks unless they're on private property don't exist for the benefit of the people but for the benefit of the Government. Its to maintain the government's monopoly of power and the current status quo.

Except we've literally been told the opposite in the manage Dekus moms quirk is perfectly fine to use, technically she's not supposed to because the law is supposed to treat everyone equally but we've been told the law is applied on a case by case basis and it's only destructive quirks or where people hurt others than it is actually applied. I mean from what we've seen the BNH world is pretty chill for one that was set back hundreds of years by a world war caused by the emergence of quirks.

You don't give a government like that the means to permanently remove the powers of someone—do that and it's "good buy hero system, hello the only people who get to keep their quirs are the heads of Government and people loyal to them... I mean, the Government.."

Feel free to show your evidence for that. Also people are complaining about this prison being dehumanising but out of the people we know literally every single one is multiple murderer. Infact the best one we know about is the multiple murderer. The only one who seems sane is the technomancer so we'll have to see what she does and is in for but this is the supermax no hope of parole prison from what we've seen.

[John Cribati]

Can I request that, if we must have The Toga Argument 3: Electric Beegalee, we at least bring new arguments to the table?

[Ramza00]

Can I request that, if we must have The Toga Argument 3: Electric Beegalee, we at least bring new arguments to the table?

...
...
No

[Traab]

While I dont want to cross the line into real world politics, depowering someone because they have abused their quirk to the extent that they are a danger to everyone around them is not that extreme. Prison already removes various rights from said criminal, and there are a number of nations who continue to restrict rights even after said term is up depending on crime and such. Im not even remotely claiming depowering should be used willy nilly. Im saying that in extreme outlier cases like say All For One, an unrepentant monster who delights in chaos death and horror and is far too dangerous to keep restrained without absurdly draconian methods due to his quirk, removing said quirk both makes it safe to keep him contained, and ensures he is far less able to cause havoc and that he can serve his sentence (which i presume is life in jail) in a far more humane method.

You bring up toga and other like her, thats fine, thats why justice isnt a rubber stamp with a one solution fits all. It has to be discerned through a case by case basis. Also, no matter what she does with her quirk, she isnt going to be remotely as hard to imprison safely as say, muscular would be. She can and should get actual psychological help from someone not an idiot while serving her sentence, and only then should any determination about the danger she represents be made. Especially with her presumably still being a minor. I havent seen her bio, so I cant recall her age. Bottom line, balancing the safety of the people and the rights of the individual are always a delicate thing filled with caveats and potential exceptions. Having an option like depowering a dangerous criminal, even more so since eri can apparently REPOWER them, puts another tool in the belt of nations protecting their people from the worst of the worst. Im not sure of the full details on eris ability to repower people so maybe there are details and limits im not aware of, but if it can work that way, then depowering while serving your sentence then repowering upon leaving jail, would be something worth considering as another option for both punishment and safe containment for a sentence. Especially since we see that quirk usage is already heavily restricted for everyone as you cant go around say, flying, or teleporting, or creating a bike from the lipids in your body out in public without having a specific license for it or other restrictions. The notion of convicted criminals losing their quirks for their prison term would likely go down a lot smoother than you may think in this society.

[Dragonus45]

"you are the only one responsible for your actions" only applies if you are a mentally healthy individual who i s not subject to coercion.

Toga is severely mentally ill--it is obvious that she is mentally ill. she even has trouble understanding why her behavior frightens or upsets some people going by some scenes.

As she is mentally ill, her responsibility for her actions is questionable... And the people responsible for her mental health care become culpable in part for her actions.

If I spike someone's drink with LSD and he runs someone over while trying to drive across the rainbow bridge to Candy City on the moon, I'm the one responsible for that death, not the guy I drugged.

If a shrink gives their underage patient advice or treatments that make the patient's mental condition deteriorate--and that's exactly what happened with the Quack Toga was sent to--then the Shrink is at least partially responsible for what the patient does.

There are a lot of people in this world who have mental health issues and don't kill people. A lot of them probably even had neglectful parents and/or people in positions of authority who failed to properly recognize or handle their issues and they don't kill people. Toga does. Trying to say the mismanagement of her quirk as a kid removes any agency she has in her decision to be a mass murdering stalker is insulting to people with mental health problems.

[John Cribati]

The thing with the Repowering is that it basically restores a physical savestate. Like, if you get depowered to serve 10 years in prison, getting repowered once you get out would be a side effect of you getting physically de-aged 10 years and a couple of hours.

Basically, you go to jail and while you literally don’t get that time back, you get at least 50% of the value of that time back.

[Traab]

The thing with the Repowering is that it basically restores a physical savestate. Like, if you get depowered to serve 10 years in prison, getting repowered once you get out would be a side effect of you getting physically de-aged 10 years and a couple of hours.

Basically, you go to jail and while you literally don’t get that time back, you get at least 50% of the value of that time back.

Ah now thats interesting. I wasnt aware of that part of her quirk. God that little girl is terrifyingly powerful and the sheer volume of people good and bad who would want to use some aspect of her power or another are endless.

[Rater202]

There are a lot of people in this world who have mental health issues and don't kill people.

Tha'ts not really relevant.

"Not guilty by reason of mental disease or defect" exists for a reason--someone who is mentally ill is not nessesarily responsible for their actions. They might not be able to tell right from wrong, they might be compelled to certain harmful behaviors, or they might be completly divorced from reality.

Toga has deep-seated, nigh-irresistible psychological compulsions that lead her to harm people. The away she behaves, whether or not she's lucid in all of this is questionable, and based on the "if heroes are supposed to save people then why did you guts kill my friend" conversation Toga has trouble with right and wrong(well, at least beyond the basic most)

She is basically a text-book example of how someone with mental illness can be rendered less than fully responsible for their actions.

And then you look at Toga's parents, who abused her emotionally, and the headshrinker she was taken to, who gave her medical advice that led to her problems becoming worse.

Toga was functional for ten years. It took her ten years of being a victim of psychiatric malpractice, her problems getting worse and worse over time becuase she was following bad advice, before she snapped completly. There's a world of difference between "kill a bird to play with it's blood becuase blood is cool and I'm four so I don't know better" and "I stabbed the boy I had a crush on in the neck and drank from the wound with a straw" If that quack had given her advice other than the quackery, if he'd actually helped her understand and manage the compulsion that came with her quirk, she most likely would not have become a serial killer.

[John Cribati]

For the record, she found the bird already hurt and bleeding. She just... finished what nature started. You know, a mini-subversion of the usual “innocent child finds baby bird” trope anime loves to use.

[Dragonus45]

Tha'ts not really relevant.

"Not guilty by reason of mental disease or defect" exists for a reason--someone who is mentally ill is not nessesarily responsible for their actions. They might not be able to tell right from wrong, they might be compelled to certain harmful behaviors, or they might be completly divorced from reality.

Toga has deep-seated, nigh-irresistible psychological compulsions that lead her to harm people. The away she behaves, whether or not she's lucid in all of this is questionable, and based on the "if heroes are supposed to save people then why did you guts kill my friend" conversation Toga has trouble with right and wrong(well, at least beyond the basic most)

She is basically a text-book example of how someone with mental illness can be rendered less than fully responsible for their actions.

And then you look at Toga's parents, who abused her emotionally, and the headshrinker she was taken to, who gave her medical advice that led to her problems becoming worse.

Toga was functional for ten years. It took her ten years of being a victim of psychiatric malpractice, her problems getting worse and worse over time becuase she was following bad advice, before she snapped completly. There's a world of difference between "kill a bird to play with it's blood becuase blood is cool and I'm four so I don't know better" and "I stabbed the boy I had a crush on in the neck and drank from the wound with a straw" If that quack had given her advice other than the quackery, if he'd actually helped her understand and manage the compulsion that came with her quirk, she most likely would not have become a serial killer.

Or maybe she would have. Generally it's irrelevant. She IS a serial killer, and ultimately you don't get to blame society for a pile of bodies. You gotta own your ****.

[LaZodiac]

I think Toga is an object lesson is really analyzing how it'd be to just de-quirk criminals. Because I do agree, in like 99% of the cases, doing that is akin to slicing the hamstring of a criminal so he's incapable of running, or slicing the equivalent so he's incapable of intense motion with his arm. It is a "clean punishment" because it allows them to live, but is directly disabling them, which is what de-quirking someone would be.

But Toga's quirk by its very nature encourages her to drink blood. Would removing her quirk remove that compulsion? Based purely on what the manga has shown us I think the answer to this question is yes. So in this case it is medicating someone, and a side effect of that medication being a disablement of some of their natural body functions.

Which is still very ****ed up and I really have no idea on what side of this I would lend my support, which speaks to how well nuanced the series is.

[Julian84]

Oh man, just what this thread needs, more Toga discourse

Frankly, depowering a villain seems like a pretty just approach to dealing with their villainy, especially in regards to psychopaths like All for One, Tomura, Muscular, Moonfish, etc. Even for Toga, if I dip my toes into that discourse, if her Quirk is causing her harm in her ability to function mentally and psychologically, it is far more merciful to deprive her of it to give her a chance at a normal life, albeit potentially one behind bars. For Gentle, La Brava, and others it would be a step too far, for sure.

But the frank issue is that a society that purports to value individual and collective needs in balance can't allow individuals to murder and steal as they please. You try to help and rehabilitate those who need it. If they can't be rehabilitated, they are incarcerated. Some people look at Tartarus and go "oh man that's terrible", but if you're not going to execute these people then it's clearly the sane solution. Depowering them after capture so they can be housed in a less insane prison system seems like a logical step forward from there.

If that really seems like a step too far then idk even think it's worth debating because the presuppositions we're working with are so alien to each other there's no chance of having a worthwhile discussion.