OOTS #1172 - The Discussion Thread

[Tiber]

2 Possibilities about what that accomplished.

Spoiler

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First, it created an alternate way in. I think the magic only allowing Dwarfs in was only on the door, but even if the others can't enter they could talk to those inside through the hole. Either way, it'd probably take too long. so even if everyone else knew about the hole they'd probably have to teleport. Second, since the council members already suspect vampires, they just saw a guy get burned by sunlight.

[Sky_Schemer]

It seems it would usually not matter that half the council was under vampire domination, if all they were doing was voting on flower arrangements for some festival or the like.

Which sounds innocent, until a tampered vote produces a festival decorated with corpse flowers.

[Sky_Schemer]

Interestingly, this strip suggests that if Hel hadn't tried to tamper with the vote, she might well have got the result she wanted. I'm sure the irony won't escape Loki.

Willingly choosing to sacrifice their souls for the sake of the rest of the world might make a case that they died an honorable death, and we know from previous strips that the other gods can and do dispute the disposition of souls bound to Hel.

Being dominated by a vampire and forced to vote for it eliminates that potential argument.

[ti'esar]

I just noticed: Durkon collapsing the ancient voting place would also be a nice take on the destruction part of his prophecy.

TBH, this is my main reason for endorsing any of the 'whole roof will come down' theories.

[kenlund]

Incredible how the ability to reverse death makes loads of people more comfortable with collateral murder.

Imagine if death could be reserved like in D&D. The legal punishment for killing someone would probably be the cost of the diamonds to raise the person and a prison sentence similar in duration to assault. With additional prison time added if the murder was done in a particularly cruel or painful way.

[i6uuaq]

Well, on the upside being turned to stone drastically increases your changes of surviving a ceiling collapse.

I am concerned that this is the end of Sigdi's involvement in the story.

[hroþila]

Willingly choosing to sacrifice their souls for the sake of the rest of the world might make a case that they died an honorable death, and we know from previous strips that the other gods can and do dispute the disposition of souls bound to Hel.

Being dominated by a vampire and forced to vote for it eliminates that potential argument.

Yes, but I don't think this is likely. "The antagonist is absolutely wrong about everything and there was no real conflict" would be too silly.

[Goremplotz]

Is this the Premature Villain Gloat? It is, isn't it? Please tell me that it is!

[Sky_Schemer]

Yes, but I don't think this is likely. "The antagonist is absolutely wrong about everything and there was no real conflict" would be too silly.

Huh? Not at all. This suggests that Hel's backup plan of dominating the council was necessary to ensure that, if it came down to the dwarven vote, that they wouldn't get an honorable way out.

[Pampukin]

Aww the expression in Sigdis face seeing her son be as brave as her late husband is just great.
I doubt we will see V saving the day, this is Durkons moment.

[hroþila]

Huh? Not at all. This suggests that Hel's backup plan of dominating the council was necessary to ensure that, if it came down to the dwarven vote, that they wouldn't get an honorable way out.

Even if Thor could successfully argue that it should be deemed honorable, that would only apply to the council itself, not to every other dwarf. We just saw Hel give up more souls just so she could keep focusing on the big prize. I don't think this factors into her plan, she merely wanted to ensure the vote went her way.

[Verappo]

I love this development! Kudos to those who suggested it in the forum. And of course Durkon's self-sacrificial nature would override his need for self-preservation.

Even if the place doesn't collapse or the hammer doesn't return to hit something dramatically, there is now a ray of light in the chamber which I'm sure could be used creatively by either Sigdi or the other dwarves.

I find it very compelling to see how the council reacted to the proposal. the strip does a good job of showing how weirdly out of context this seems for them, like a thought experiment that isn't going to affect everybody on the planet, because they don't have the experience with those problems that the protagonists possess. It's also interesting that the dwarven focus on honor that should save them has been written as a tool against them. Under monocle guy's theory, the most honorable thing would be for dwarves to die a dishonorable death so other people might reach their afterlives (of course this ignores the will of all the other dwarves who are not in the council, but tradition seems to suggest this would be a widespread belief).

Considering other discussions of honor in the book, this kind of makes me wish that Utterly Dwarfed (!) will end with some sort of concession that yes, honor is great and worthy of aspiration, but maybe dwarven tradition should slowly adjust to a more relaxed approach to upholding it that might make individuals more prone to accepting frivolities like a new dress every now and then, and less likely to accept the mindset that they should be ok with sending their whole people to a plane of torture out of honor (even if they think it's just a test of honor). This is just my idea of where I see the book ending though, I'd be fine for them to go on as usual regardless.

[pendell]

Wait just a minute -- if the hammer returns and collapses the ceiling, thus killing the vampires, won't it also kill the rest of the council as well. Mortal dwarves are probably less durable than vampire dwarves are.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Sky_Schemer]

Considering other discussions of honor in the book, this kind of makes me wish that Utterly Dwarfed (!) will end with some sort of concession that yes, honor is great and worthy of aspiration, but maybe dwarven tradition should slowly adjust to a more relaxed approach to upholding it.

I don't think they get a vote in this. That ship sailed when this world was created. According to Rich, you can be the best and most honorable dwarf warrior in the world, but if you choke on a chicken bone and die, you go to Hel.

They are honor-bound because their souls depend on it in a very literal way that is pretty black-and-white.

[NekoIncardine]

I don't think they get a vote in this. That ship sailed when this world was created. According to Rich, you can be the best and most honorable dwarf warrior in the world, but if you choke on a chicken bone and die, you go to Hel.

They are honor-bound because their souls depend on it in a very literal way that is pretty black-and-white.

Loki probably regrets that bet at least some of the time...

While I'm not sure what the payoff is, I'm 99.9% sure one is coming now... Especially since we have quite a few characters actively near the scene who now have an entrance not subject to those barricades. So even if the ceiling doesn't collapse...

[WolvesbaneIII]

The guys host was obsessed with stones right? I wonder if the stone ceiling being destroyed will serve as some kind of plot pay off?

Possibly not, but now V can fly in there and cast dispel on them right? Does V have that spell ability? is it one of his barred spell types? Are there any other clerics who could swoop in and cast it?

or the whole ceiling collapses and the vampires all die. Rocks fall and only the undead die.

Gontor or whatever his name is laments his hosts obsession with stones, and thus the irony, but not really because it was the host gontor and not the vampires, so its not really ironic, or is it?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Wait just a minute -- if the hammer returns and collapses the ceiling, thus killing the vampires, won't it also kill the rest of the council as well. Mortal dwarves are probably less durable than vampire dwarves are.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

What would kill the vampires would be the sunlight flooding the room. The collapsing ceiling might kill dwarves (it would not really hurt vampires at all, what with DR and regen and mist ability), but we don't know that it is a thick enough ceiling for that. Besides, if it was, Durkon would probably not rely on this as plan B, so I think it is a safe bet that it is not that thick, and that it will hurt but not kill them.

Grey Wolf

[Lheticus]

Okay, Things have Gotten Worse enough times for me to start going "how the heck are they going to get out of this already?!" Like, at this point it's like, is the OOTS world ACTUALLY going to be destroyed, then?!

[dtilque]

Well I feel vindicated. I'm one of those who pointed out that destroying Dwarven property was against Dwarven Law and that if Durkon tried it, he would be petrified. {scrubbed}

[hroþila]

Ok, how about this:

Hammer goes out
V casts Forcecage around the table through the small hole
Hammer goes back in, causing the whole roof to collapse
The vampires die due to excess vitamin D

[Sapphire Guard]

Huh? That's not enough information for the elders to make an informed decision.

If the 'stone' effect doesn't take effect until after the fact, with the stakes this high, It's highly possible for the invading dwarves to just say 'eh, to hell with it' and attack now worry about consequences later.

Durkon knows dwarven law, there's certainly a plan here.

[Cifer]

I wonder if monocle dwarf actually has it right. By making that sacrifice, the entire dwarven race would die so that the other races' souls can be saved - which in turn makes all of their deaths honorable (or at least honorable enough for someone like Loki to make that case). At least, I would assume that in a duty-bound society like the dwarves, being sent to your death by your superior also makes that death honorable.
Maybe Hel is made to realize that and hurriedly calls off the whole thing before the world ends and she gains no souls at all.

I don't think it will happen that way due to the drama requirements, but it would sure make for an interesting conclusion.

[Rogan]

I noticed some people saying, the hole would not be protected by the barriers.
While there certainly is no visible barrier in place, it feels a bit strange to have such an easy way to circumvent the protection. I mean, if a single thrown hammer could rip a hole in the ceiling, it should not take much more force to do so from the outside. Maybe dropping something heavy from an airship.

But even if it would be that simple to circumvent all the defences, I still do not think the rest of the order will take advantage of this opening, at least not very soon.
1) logistical reason: they are inside of the dwarven town, underground. The opening is to the surface. It would probably take them some time to go there (as long as they don't make another opening)
2) narrative reason: this book has a focus on Durkon and his family. I don't think the rest of the order will solve everything while he is stoned.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I wonder if monocle dwarf actually has it right. By making that sacrifice, the entire dwarven race would die so that the other races' souls can be saved - which in turn makes all of their deaths honorable (or at least honorable enough for someone like Loki to make that case).

No. The action of choosing to kill ten million dwarves to save all humans and elves might be honorable. But dying because someone else made that decision without your knowledge is not honorable in itself.

But more damming, this vote won't end the world. If they votes yes, the Dvalin would leave, vote in favour of Heimdall's proposal, and then the world would end. Most dwarves would then go to Hel, because none of them were performing an honorable action that caused their deaths at the time. Because, as we must remember, it's not living honorably, it's dying honorably that counts. "Sitting in a council room waiting for the inevitable destruction of the world" is not honorable. Best the council members could hope to do in that scenario would be to rush out and try to die before the end - possibly honorably dueling each other and as many local dwarves as they can challenge before the end.

Also: the person that probably knows best what is and isn't an honorable death is Dvalin, and we know have it straight from his mouth that the vote would send all dwarves to Hel.

Grey Wolf

[OPG]

Okay, Things have Gotten Worse enough times for me to start going "how the heck are they going to get out of this already?!" Like, at this point it's like, is the OOTS world ACTUALLY going to be destroyed, then?!

more like Ray of Misnomer

[Verappo]

I don't think they get a vote in this. That ship sailed when this world was created. According to Rich, you can be the best and most honorable dwarf warrior in the world, but if you choke on a chicken bone and die, you go to Hel.

They are honor-bound because their souls depend on it in a very literal way that is pretty black-and-white.

Oh I'm not suggesting they have a way to change the bet. Just for them to develop a sense that maybe it's ok to want things like a new dress or a relationship with someone you're not forced to marry (or a one night stand with someone who escaped such a marriage), things that don't necessarily make them dishonorable but just improve the overall quality of life. Like, you can be honorable where it matters and always be ready to fight valiantly and still go out fighting a conifer, but maybe you'll have had a nice dinner every now and then, you know? If you choke on the chicken, at least Thor may still vouch that you fought to the last breath to spit it out.

It's natural that dwarven society developed this sense of honor and decided to apply it to every single aspect of their lives, but maybe they can gradually reduce it to 75% and still be just as honorable and Valhalla-worthy when the time comes.

Best case scenario of course would be for Hel to he hel(d) accountable for the stunt she pulled here and lose control of the bet, if only for those like poor Mildred Thickbelt who died of pneumonia cowering under the bed and had no choice. Happiness may not have anything to do with being a dwarf, but maybe it should. And it CAN, in a fantasy webcomic !

[Anarion]

The explanation of the problem there is terrible. The gods at least know the backstory and can judge the threat. The dwarves have no sense of what’s happening or how imminent it is or anything. Even aside from the vampire problem.

[Jasdoif]

The explanation of the problem there is terrible. The gods at least know the backstory and can judge the threat. The dwarves have no sense of what’s happening or how imminent it is or anything. Even aside from the vampire problem.

I imagine Dvalin's bound by the same rules not to talk about the Snarl to mortals who don't already know about it.

[Dion]

This hammer comes back.

[Doug Lampert]

Imagine if death could be reserved like in D&D. The legal punishment for killing someone would probably be the cost of the diamonds to raise the person and a prison sentence similar in duration to assault. With additional prison time added if the murder was done in a particularly cruel or painful way.

Note that the damages should be the full cost of a true resurrection: 25,000 GP for diamonds + 1,530 GP for spell casting. And this assumes the availability of a level 17 cleric or equivalent.

Raise dead or normal resurrection costs you 2 points of Con or a level, permanently.

This is enough that death isn't really reversible for most people as a practical matter, even if there weren't a serious shortage of level 17+ clerics doing commercial spellcasting in the OotS world.